Trolley Square Mall to be used as model for response

[qlajlu]

The police response to the shooting in the Trolley Square Mall was so rapid and so thorough that other agencies want to study it for training purposes.

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_048181929.html

Feb 17, 2007 4:22 pm US/Mountain

Other Police Looking To Copy SLPD's Response

SALT LAKE CITY - The Salt Lake Police Department apparently handled the shooting at Trolley Square so well, their performance will be used as a model of efficiency for other police departments around the country.

Utah law enforcement officials credit post-Columbine training and the state's advanced cross-agency communications system for stopping the rampage quickly.

Stu Smith, director of the Utah Crime Lab, said the damage could have been "10 times worse'' without the swift action.

"God help everybody if [the shooter] had another 15 or 20 minutes to have free reign inside that mall,'' Smith said.

Instead, Sulejman Talovic, 18, had about six minutes, during which he killed five people and wounded four with a 12-gauge shotgun. The first 911 call was reported at 6:44 p.m. and Talovic was cornered and killed by four Salt Lake City officers and an off-duty Ogden officer by 6:50 p.m., police said.*

Smith said the crime scene was the most "overwhelming'' he'd seen in three decades with the crime lab. He said 96 bullet fragments were recovered from a store where Talovic was killed. Smith's team worked through Monday night, noting where bullets had ripped through walls and ricocheted off floors.

Post-Columbine police training focuses on quick, tactical response, where small teams "go to the gunshots'' instead of plotting the perimeter and waiting until the shooting is over.

"They did a terrific job,'' said Patrick Kiernan, spokesman for the Salt Lake City FBI. "These guys really put their lives on the line.''

Salt Lake City police Lt. Tim Doubt said one of the post-Columbine training simulations included "a shooter in the mall.''

"In these types of situations, time is not on your side _ it's your enemy,'' said Doubt, who helped conduct the mall simulation as a SWAT commander. "They're trained to ask the question: 'Is someone dying right now?' If the answer is yes, they go in.''

As the officers who responded to the initial call searched for the shooter inside, an army of support amassed outside.

In a flash, Trolley Square was surrounded by more than 200 police personnel from throughout the Salt Lake valley, 100 firefighters, a host of medical experts and the state crime lab. Highway Patrol units shut off the mall's perimeter and a state helicopter spotlighted the mall and the surrounding neighborhood.

Utah updated its crucial cross-agency police communication system after the Sept. 11 attacks and honed it during the 2002 Winter Olympics _ during emergencies all traffic is networked to a single frequency.

"It's huge,'' said Salt Lake City police Detective Jeff Bedard. "It's beyond measure how valuable having people on the same radio frequency was.''

Already, police departments across the country plan to use Trolley Square as a case study.

"I'm getting phone calls from all over,'' said police Lt. Rick Findlay, who helped train the force. "People feel there are some lessons to be learned from our response and that's flattering.''

*Emphasis mine

 

[redneckrepairs]

IMHO every incident bears study , some for what went right , some for what went wrong . But all can and are learned from .

 

[Henry Bowman]

One lesson that must not be overlooked is that an armed private citizen [what he does for a living is irrelevant] on the scene was the first to respond and was highly instumental an effective in limiting and stopping the carnage.

 

[rangermonroe]

6 minutes = about 42 minutes when you are being shot at, IIRC. <shudder>


Cops did good, right and quick on this one. IMHO.

Now and again, the enemy of my enemy...

 

[larry_minn]

I agree the first person who was armed and ALREADY ON SCENE helped limit the mobility of the shooter. Plus able to keep info going out to troops outside so they know where they can enter with some safety and confront/attack the threat without having to clear tens of THOUSANDS of squre feet (in every store)
My (plan) if there is a shooting in a mall/structure with many people is attempt to follow shooter from as far as I can while keeping 911 on cell so Officers can confront him ASAP.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

The first 911 call was reported at 6:44 p.m. and Talovic was cornered and killed by four Salt Lake City officers and an off-duty Ogden officer by 6:50 p.m

That's probably a pretty good response time. However, how many shots do you think you could hammer out in 6 minutes?
The great thing about armed citizens is they are ALREADY THERE.

 

[bogie]

Let's see... I can dump two mags from a pair of 1911s into two 7 yard paper plates (alternating, by the way...), and reload and dump both again, all within 25-30 seconds...

And I'm not all that fast or all that good.

Oh, and isn't is just SO great that they're publicizing the tactics used? So that the next islamic nutj... er... poor misunderstood youth has a backup waiting for the guys who get the initial call?

 

[Coronach]

I doubt very highly that they will publicize any of the tactical details. In truth, the tactics for active shooters are pretty simple:

Go to the shooting, as quickly as possible.

Eliminate the threat, either via surrender or incapacitation.

The rest is just detail. Pretty important detail for the guys doing it, but it doesn't change the basic gist of things.

And yes, I agree that armed citizens are the key to minimizing casualties in a situation like this. As glad as I was that Officer Hammond was there, I would have been ecstatic if the nutjob got dropped by some grizzled old plateshooter leaving the food court with a tray of Sbarro.

Mike

 

[rangermonroe]

I would have been ecstatic if the nutjob got dropped by some grizzled old plateshooter leaving the food court with a tray of Sbarro.

I vote for the mall mom pushing a stroller, "<cadence>with a little baby ranger, swinging a chain"</cadence>, dragging out a .45 out of her purse/diaper bag and dropping said perp.

Imagine the MSMs reaction to that scenario.

 

[armoredman]

I have heard in many places the off duty officer had no spare ammo for his Kimber...wonder if he has invested in a mag pounch/spare mags yet. Well done on his part, huge kudos.

 

[Firehand]

Kind of interesting, this used to be the standard response: someone is shooting at people, you go in.

Then it became "No, you plain police officers stand around and wait for the experts to arrive, and study, and plan, and then do something".

Now it's back to "If someone is killing people, you go in and do the job". Which, outside of special circumstances, IS the correct response.

Everything old is new again...

 

[nico]

I vote for the mall mom pushing a stroller, "<cadence>with a little baby ranger, swinging a chain"</cadence>, dragging out a .45 out of her purse/diaper bag and dropping said perp.

Imagine the MSMs reaction to that scenario.

We've already seen their response. Remember the shooting at the courthouse in Texas last year? They downplayed and, where possible, completely ignored what had actually happened. If nothing else, the situation in Utah proves that what the person does for a living matters a lot in their eyes.

Call me a cynic, but if the off duty cop in Utah had been a "regular" person with a CCW, we'd be hearing a lot less about him at the national level.

 

[Ranger 40]

The Ogden officer said he only had 6 rds. total when it started.

 

[Biker]

Well, it appears that 6 was enough.

Biker

 

[qlajlu]

Even though the initial response was by a police officer, it is irrelevant. In this case he was nothing more than a CCW enjoying a Valentine's dinner with his wife. True, he probably has a little more training than the average CCW person, but the fact that he was an off duty police officer is only incidental. He was even armed like a typical, regular CCW since he only had six rounds and no additional mags with him at the time!

In a flash, Trolley Square was surrounded by more than 200 police personnel from throughout the Salt Lake valley, 100 firefighters, a host of medical experts and the state crime lab. Highway Patrol units shut off the mall's perimeter and a state helicopter spotlighted the mall and the surrounding neighborhood.

The burning question that most agencies from across the country want answered is how this incident attracted such a coordinated army of responders within such a short amount of time after the first 911 call. They want to know how the resources could respond en masse and deploy so rapidly.

 

[hjrocket]

Ammo count

Officer Hammond, Ogden PD, when asked on TV, said he had a Kimber 45ACP with 8 rounds total at time of incident. Thats eight, not six, as one shop keeper reported.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Already, police departments across the country plan to use Trolley Square as a case study.

"I'm getting phone calls from all over,'' said police Lt. Rick Findlay, who helped train the force. "People feel there are some lessons to be learned from our response and that's flattering.''

To borrow a phrase from Mr. Spock ... "Fascinating."

What I'd like to know is how all these other jurisdictions are going to plan for having an out-of-jurisdiction off-duty officer handy on the scene to bottle up the perp until the cavalry arrives.

 

[Coronach]

Kind of interesting, this used to be the standard response: someone is shooting at people, you go in.

Then it became "No, you plain police officers stand around and wait for the experts to arrive, and study, and plan, and then do something".

Now it's back to "If someone is killing people, you go in and do the job". Which, outside of special circumstances, IS the correct response.

Everything old is new again...

Yes and no. I don't think that holding the perimeter and waiting for SWAT on an active shooting was ever the plan, it just sort of happened that way because most jurisdictions never have active shooters, but they often have standoffs. The standoff SOP got used in a horribly inappropriate situation because no one in charge realized that they needed an active shooter response plan, so they went with the closest thing they had.

That sounds strange, but try telling city council that you need training money to teach street cops to form an impromptu fire team to storm the local high school. They'll remind you that you already have a SWAT team, and that they're really not comfortable with all this paramilitary stuff anyway. Besides, what are the chances that you would really need a rapid response beyond that provided by SWAT? When has that ever happened?

If it hasn't happened recently, it probably won't happen. If it probably won't happen, you don't have to think about it. If you don't have to think about it, you don't have to put it in the budget. And if you don't have to put it in the budget, you can't be criticized for wasting money. And if you didn't waste the money, it's not paid for. If it's not paid for it doesn't exist, and if it doesn't exist it can't go wrong. And if it can't go wrong, it can't interrupt your re-election campaign. So, if it hasn't happened in recent memory, we aren't planning for it or thinking about it, so stop asking. It will be fine.

Seriously. They're politicians. They're that dumb.

The Columbine disaster was a result of a lack of prior planning from both the political leadership and the leadership of the police department.

Mike