Utah mall shooting lessons learned

[BullfrogKen]

JLStorm said: but I am just not willing to change my dress. To bad they dont make CCW permits highly visible to assist in identification

. . . but what if I have a gun in my hand and were trying to defend myself when the officers arrived??

Well, then I guess you better figure out a way to deal with that. Clothing and appearance might be the only form of communication we'll be able to have with the first responders before they make their decision on how to handle us. Its unfair, but life is unfair.

Some folks tie their identities to the way they dress. If you're unwilling to change that, OK. That's your choice. And you'll have to find ways to deal with that.

I began looking at my clothing as part of the entire package some years ago, and I made decisions based upon that.

 

[JLStorm]

what type of dress do you personally recommend. Im sure a gun and a suit would go well together, but thats a bit much. I still wouldnt change my dress because I work in what I wear, and nice clothes arent appropriate in my field, but Im just curious.

 

[Biker]

JLStorm...

To quote one of my favorite philosophers, "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam."

I can empathise.

Biker

 

[ndh87]

I think shouting "Dont shoot, Im a good guy" or something along those lines would be easier to pick up on than a jumble of letters and long words in a high stress situation. Short and simple, gets the point across, seems like a good idea to me, of course i could be wrong.

 

[FLA2760]

Re lessons learned

This is a good thread. We can all learn from this tragedy. I always carry a reload for my Glock27 and a KT P32 as a BUG. I posted a thread on FBI Stats for LEO involved shootings on this board. It is sobering to see how many bad guys train often with their firearms and how many carry a BUG.

 

[BullfrogKen]

JLStorm said: what type of dress do you personally recommend. Im sure a gun and a suit would go well together, but thats a bit much. I still wouldnt change my dress because I work in what I wear, and nice clothes arent appropriate in my field, but Im just curious.

I rarely wear a suit myself; only in appropriate circumstances do I dress in such attire.

I don't advocate a specific manner of clothing style. I do advocate looking at walking about society armed as an entire package. The package includes more than the gun, holster and belt.

I'm suggesting the image we present has an effect on people. We know this to be true on many levels, and we ourselves make those first impressions with others we meet. All I'm suggesting is look at your clothing style, and then insert a gun into the picture. What would you conclude about someone dressed as you are, who had armed himself? Go to the mall, or anyplace people congregate, and watch people. Observe who, if they stood before you armed, would look like part of the problem, and which people look like they might be a victim.

Consider also that if you use that gun, what you look like that day will be preserved in perpetuity for the DA, the judge at the bail hearing, the nighty 10 news o'clock release, and anyone else dealing with the case to see attached to the front of your file folder. The more you look like someone people can identify with, and say to themselves subconsciously, "Hey, he looks like one of us," I suggest the better chance you have of making that next first impression as good as it will go.

Conversely, how many times have you seen that mug shot on the nightly news, or that perp walk footage, and said to yourself, or even out loud to your wife for that manner, "Yeah . . . HE looks like a real winner." Does it mean all that much? Maybe, maybe not. That's a decision we must all make for ourselves.


I am saying that your appearance will influence a first responder to make an immediate mental connection to what he can identify you with in his worldview. That may be the only communication you get to make with him. He may not be able to hear you, or may not listen to you if he could understand your explanations. Those decisions are literally made within seconds, and its at an unconscious level.


So, when I say you'll have to find a way to work that out, it means just that. You'll have to just find a way to work that out.

 

[Jeff White]

If you encounter the respnding officers while you are actually shooting at the badguy, expect to shot. Consider yourself very lucky if you are are verbally challenged. This is why officer was so concerned that people knew who he was.

If you are verbally challenged, don't say "I'm a good guy, I've got a CCW" or anything else. Just do what you are told to do, exactly. If the responding officers want you to drop your $3000.00 custom 1911, don't worry about the dings and scratches, think about what those dings will do to the collectors value of your pistol, if you must think of something. Just do what you are told to do, exactly as you are instructed. Keep your mouth shut and follow instructions. There will be time to sort things out later.

One of the biggest dangers is everyone who's got a cell phone is probably going to call and give your description to 911 as a second shooter. This is where your dress and appearance might help. If you don't look like the public's stereotypical image of a mass killer, they may think you are part of the response. The police are going to key on the fact that you are armed and treat you accordingly.

If you don't want to carry a cellphone, I can't help you with communicating to the police. I wouldn't recommend that you charge into anything that didn't go down in front of you without the police knowing an armed citizen was responding.

I know that there are a lot of people in the shooting community, sworn and private citizen alike who see themselves in officer Hammond's place. Before you win the heroism medal from your governor and advance the cause of CCW another 10 years, you need to think about all these things. This incident could have very easily been a blue on blue fiasco, especially if a bunch of people had jumped in.

It is truly one of those situations where you could do everything right and die before you had a chance to make a difference.

Jeff

 

[Stretchman]

Unless you are a cop (I feel its an LEO's duty to protect the public so retreat by one would be morally wrong),

I think you'd better research that one. IIRC, a police officer does not have a duty to protect the public, but to enforce the law. Theer's nothing in the law which states that a LEO has to put himself into harm's way in order to extricate a civilian who is in danger.

Private Security personnel, at least in this state, are respondent to the post orders. If the post orders specify that you should do this, then you have a legal obligation to the client, who is paying you under contract for your services. LEO, OTOH, have what is known as discretionary authority. They can decide when and where to engage and arrest the subject. Putting themselves in harm's way is not a requirement of thie duties. But rest assured, in most cases, the officer will exercise his discretionary authority to act on behalf of the civilians, just as you or I indicate we would. BUt LEO have to take into account the big picture, and won't risk doing something that may escalate the situation without a reasonable certainty that they, or other bystanders won't get injured or killed in the frey. Laws in your community may be different.

 

[BenjaminR]

As far as saying "the bad guy is over there" that is all fine and good...but what if I have a gun in my hand and were trying to defend myself when the officers arrived??

Honestly, I can't see the police go-on letting you shoot if they're not sure who the good guy and bad guy are. What others have said about clothing I would have to agree. There's a better chance of getting shot if you're wearing a trench coat than if you were wearing a nice shirt/slacks.

Either way, if I'm involved in a shooting I hope to heck the situation has been neutralized before the cops get there. I'd like to be able to have my gun back in my holster before the police are within view.

...there's my additional 2cents, but I'm no expert...

-Benjamin

 

[30 cal slob]

anyone else here get a strong emotional reaction from watching the video clip?

i take it that trenchcoats and backpacks are not going to be on the list of good-guy apparel/accessories.

 

[sm]

Lessons Learned

Same ones folks have been trying to educate and pass forward for a long time.

YOU are on your own in this world. You are the only one that can insure YOUR safety and that of your family.
ONLY way to accomplish this is to educate your self and get training. The person armed with knowledge and trained, continues to train in knowledgeable matters survives.

Property Owners of Malls only care about one thing - Money!
Money they have to spend on Insurance, to appease Insurance Companies they compromise YOUR safety.
This compromise of your safety is promoted as being for the safety of customers and employees of Malls.
Money - they want shoppers to flock to their malls to spend money for profits, it is not about the customer, it is about making money.

Criminals throughout history have ignored restrictions, laws, and anything else set forth to make law abiding folks feel safe. This is why we call them criminals.

Lessons learned are the same ones folks have been trying to educate and pass forward for a long time.

One learns from mistakes - less painful and expensive if someone else's mistakes.

United Individuals armed with knowledge, trained in using knowledge can make a huge difference.

One is wise to ask themselves whenever they read, hear or view anything, "is this for MY benefit, or the benefit of another?"

Often times the reality is - it is not about you, instead the power, money and control for another.


Steve

 

[Lonestar49]

...

My thanks to Jeff White et. al. for one of the best reads I have ever read, as though it was a full course meal, and look forward to digesting all the responses and walking away smarter than when I came in.


LS

 

[Coronach]

I think you'd better research that one. IIRC, a police officer does not have a duty to protect the public, but to enforce the law. Theer's nothing in the law which states that a LEO has to put himself into harm's way in order to extricate a civilian who is in danger.

Not quite. Look up the Feasance brothers; Mis, Mal and Non.

(That's misfeasance, malfeasance and nonfeasance for those of us who have never heard the terms before.)

You cannot sue a police department or government body for failure to provide protection a general sense (as in, there were no cops around when something happened), but in a specific incident where you can demonstrate that a cop was there, was able to act, and chose not to? That's a different circumstance.

Mike

 

[mljdeckard]

Until recently I had a good-length ponytail. (I chopped it off to go back into the guard.) In high school I looked and thought much like Klebold and Thomas. I carried in the trolley with a ponytail many times.

I have the right to look and express however I want to. I am not under any requirement to look like everyone else. Anyone who doesn't like my appearance doesn't have to expose him or herself to the cruel outside world where someone else might look different than they. They can always stay home and look however they want to.

BUT,

If I were in the same situation as Hammond, or any of the responding officers, I would have to rush into combat GUESSING who was the bad guy. If I saw a clean-cut guy with a pistol, my brain would automatically say armed citizen/off-duty cop. If I saw a younger kid with a long arm, a heavy coat, and a backpack, my brain automatically says criminal. If in between these two people you see early-thirties guy with a ponytail, black field jacket, and a pistol, (me,) what would you assume? Is he helping Hammond, or helping the killer? We all say profiling is bad, but when you drop into gunfire, you can't give everyone the benefit of the doubt. If I WERE in the middle of that furball, I would have to drop my weapon, raise my hands, and hope that Hammond and/or the police killed the shooter before the shooter killed me. Anything else would force Hammond and the police to make a split-second decision about whether or not I was a threat.

So, yes, I have the right to dress and groom however I want to. But it is foolish to think that negative consequences due to my decisions are impossible.