No_Brakes23
Member
Good point Jeff. A good argument for a hands-free for your phone, as well. Much easier to relay info and defend youerself when you don't have a hand up to your head.
Utah mall shooting lessons learned
- Thread starter hso
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Good point Jeff. A good argument for a hands-free for your phone, as well. Much easier to relay info and defend youerself when you don't have a hand up to your head.
TallPine
Member
Because the gubbermint can't track my location and listen in to all my conversations on my revolver
Sergeant Sabre
Member
One lesson I take:
"Shoots a couple shots, reloads. Shoots a couple, reloads..."
Well, seems you don't need a 10+ round magazine, like the antis thought.
"Shoots a couple shots, reloads. Shoots a couple, reloads..."
Well, seems you don't need a 10+ round magazine, like the antis thought.
Car Knocker
Member
From today's newspaper:
What might have happened if Hammond's wife hadn't called 911 with his description?
What might have happened if one of the 911 callers had seen Hammond with his handgun out and gave his decription as one of the shooters?
What might have happened if Sgt. Oblad hadn't had the presence of mind to take the time to observe Hammond's actions and subsequently form the opinion that Hammond wasn't the shooter?
In my opinion, Hammond is very lucky that everything came together as it did and he survived both his encounter with the shooter and the police.
http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660196435,00.html
What might have happened if Hammond's wife hadn't called 911 with his description?
What might have happened if one of the 911 callers had seen Hammond with his handgun out and gave his decription as one of the shooters?
What might have happened if Sgt. Oblad hadn't had the presence of mind to take the time to observe Hammond's actions and subsequently form the opinion that Hammond wasn't the shooter?
In my opinion, Hammond is very lucky that everything came together as it did and he survived both his encounter with the shooter and the police.
mall security
as far as mall security most security companys give very little training(maybe 3 hrs) to there employees and the byword is "observe and report" only engage to protect yourself and call the real cops. I don't know how the security could cordinate with the PD. Most security firms don't have any extra equipment to do this, I end up using my personal cell phone more often than not. About all I can think that security could do is use the PA system to get shoppers out of the mall.
as far as mall security most security companys give very little training(maybe 3 hrs) to there employees and the byword is "observe and report" only engage to protect yourself and call the real cops. I don't know how the security could cordinate with the PD. Most security firms don't have any extra equipment to do this, I end up using my personal cell phone more often than not. About all I can think that security could do is use the PA system to get shoppers out of the mall.
expvideo
Member
Kind of the average bad guy on Walker, lol. Some people are quick to judge.
This incident has made me re-think how I carry. I always have carried the gun, but sometimes I feel lazy and leave the extra ammo at home. Since the shooting, I've been carrying both of my spare mags with me. I carry 15+1 in the gun (sig 226 9mm, Federal 147gr Hydra-Shok low-recoil), an extra 15rd mag and an extra 10 rd mag. I got a deal on the 10 rd mag, and I figure 41 rounds is plenty for even a zombie situation
[/imature humor]So anyway, I decided that 15+1 is enough for most situations (3 is enough for most situations, I would imagine), but I might as well carry enough ammo in case I'm wrong. Or maybe I watch too much 24. Either way.
Or was there another message from this incident that I'm missing?
DougW
Member
I would have to say that I really don't know for sure what I would do in a similar situation. I know what the sound of gun fire is, and I would be moving myself and my loved ones away as fast as I could. If confronted, I would have to fall back on my limited training as a civilian (not LEO or military). I have personally trained (situational) and I think it is something that anyone that carries a concealed weapon should invest in. Shooting and scooting sometimes may be necessary.
I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1, a spare 15 or 19 rounder (G17 mag with a +2 base), and a Surefire Tac light. I have always carried spare mags, since I consider them an integral part of the weapon system, and they can at the least, fail to function. I also agree with others here; I think I must be prepaired to defend myself. I know that if something like this happens in my presence, I will be praying to the Almighty big time!
I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1, a spare 15 or 19 rounder (G17 mag with a +2 base), and a Surefire Tac light. I have always carried spare mags, since I consider them an integral part of the weapon system, and they can at the least, fail to function. I also agree with others here; I think I must be prepaired to defend myself. I know that if something like this happens in my presence, I will be praying to the Almighty big time!
SSN Vet
Member
rethinking the need for reloads.....
03Shadowbob
Member
Jeff makes excellent points. My dad and I were just talking about this last night at dinner.
I would not run into a fire fight if I heard shots off in the distance. I would exit or take cover if no exit was available. If I was in close proximity to the shooter then I'd take the shot only after fully scoping the area to make sure of the backstop. I believe I am a good shot and under stress could still make the shot but in a shooting your adrenalin and emotions are very high and that may throw off your shot. Just be extra careful of the bystanders if you are ever in this type of situation.
I would not run into a fire fight if I heard shots off in the distance. I would exit or take cover if no exit was available. If I was in close proximity to the shooter then I'd take the shot only after fully scoping the area to make sure of the backstop. I believe I am a good shot and under stress could still make the shot but in a shooting your adrenalin and emotions are very high and that may throw off your shot. Just be extra careful of the bystanders if you are ever in this type of situation.
Applause for Officer Hammond - big time. I am sure he did not know initially if he was facing a solo wacko teenager or a group of real terrorists. He exhibited situational courage that speaks volumes.
Sounds like the witness interviewed in the video had the drop on the shooter a time or two early on - from above as well. Also seems like a levelheaded guy who was very frustrated about being so helpless in that situation - probably wishes he CCW'd. If so, he could have maybe saved a person or two from injury or death if he had been able to take a shot whenever he had the first unobserved view of the shooter.
Guns in the hands of responsible folks who carry are a good thing - a really good thing - that I, for one, would like to see more of.
Sounds like the witness interviewed in the video had the drop on the shooter a time or two early on - from above as well. Also seems like a levelheaded guy who was very frustrated about being so helpless in that situation - probably wishes he CCW'd. If so, he could have maybe saved a person or two from injury or death if he had been able to take a shot whenever he had the first unobserved view of the shooter.
Guns in the hands of responsible folks who carry are a good thing - a really good thing - that I, for one, would like to see more of.
Lessons learned?
1. Have a gun.
2. Have a gun that you can shoot accurately, at a distance. I'm guilty of sometimes toting my j-frame, not exactly a long range gun, and feeling that it is sufficient, since most engagements occur at close distance. Well, this one didn't. I'm not sure of the exact ranges involved, but I'm pretty sure they were outside of my comfortable engagement distance with my Model 640.
3. Have enough ammo. See my comments on the j-frame above. 5-for-sure is great and all, but with one reload you have a total of 10 rounds, with a pretty decent pause between #5 and #6.
4. Have a cell phone. Use it. Read Jeff's posts again.
5. Be able to display your credentials quickly (LEO specific). As a cop, I carry a badge. So did Officer Hammond. However, Hammond said that his badge was in his wallet, and he could not reach it easily in order to display it to the first uniforms to show up. I usually carry mine on a belt clip, beside my IWB holster, but I sometimes carry it in a badge wallet, strong-side. I plan on never carrying it there again.
6. Have in mind what you will do and say when confronted by a uniformed LEO. This sounds stupid, but when the S hits the F, simple things become hard. If you have in mind that you will lower your gun to low ready and say "DON'T SHOOT! OFFICER, I AM AN OFF-DUTY-OFFICER/CCW-PERMIT-HOLDER! THE SHOOTER IS DOWN THERE! WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO?" you will be much less likely to do something that could get you shot.
7. If the nice man in the uniform tells you to do something, do exactly what he says. He's having a bad day, too.
8. Realize that you're just one lone guy playing in the ultimate team sport. You don't have to kill the guy to make a difference. You don't even have to engage. But if you do engage, remember that just exchanging shots with him can pin him down for long enough for the heavy hitters to show up.
9. Backstop. Notice that Hammond was up high, shooting down at the BG. While he could still get ricochets off of the floor, he was in a much better position than if he was shooting at a target at the same level. The reason I say this is that we imagine that once the shooting starts, everyone will leave. They didn't! Hammond himself wandered into the gunfight and didn't realize it until he saw bleeding people. There will be people around, either down the hallway, or behind walls that are concealment but not cover. There's really no way to make sure that your shots are 100% safe in a shopping mall, but you should at least be aware of the potential dangers of missing and do what you can to minimize the risk.
Mike
1. Have a gun.
2. Have a gun that you can shoot accurately, at a distance. I'm guilty of sometimes toting my j-frame, not exactly a long range gun, and feeling that it is sufficient, since most engagements occur at close distance. Well, this one didn't. I'm not sure of the exact ranges involved, but I'm pretty sure they were outside of my comfortable engagement distance with my Model 640.
3. Have enough ammo. See my comments on the j-frame above. 5-for-sure is great and all, but with one reload you have a total of 10 rounds, with a pretty decent pause between #5 and #6.
4. Have a cell phone. Use it. Read Jeff's posts again.
5. Be able to display your credentials quickly (LEO specific). As a cop, I carry a badge. So did Officer Hammond. However, Hammond said that his badge was in his wallet, and he could not reach it easily in order to display it to the first uniforms to show up. I usually carry mine on a belt clip, beside my IWB holster, but I sometimes carry it in a badge wallet, strong-side. I plan on never carrying it there again.
6. Have in mind what you will do and say when confronted by a uniformed LEO. This sounds stupid, but when the S hits the F, simple things become hard. If you have in mind that you will lower your gun to low ready and say "DON'T SHOOT! OFFICER, I AM AN OFF-DUTY-OFFICER/CCW-PERMIT-HOLDER! THE SHOOTER IS DOWN THERE! WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO?" you will be much less likely to do something that could get you shot.
7. If the nice man in the uniform tells you to do something, do exactly what he says. He's having a bad day, too.
8. Realize that you're just one lone guy playing in the ultimate team sport. You don't have to kill the guy to make a difference. You don't even have to engage. But if you do engage, remember that just exchanging shots with him can pin him down for long enough for the heavy hitters to show up.
9. Backstop. Notice that Hammond was up high, shooting down at the BG. While he could still get ricochets off of the floor, he was in a much better position than if he was shooting at a target at the same level. The reason I say this is that we imagine that once the shooting starts, everyone will leave. They didn't! Hammond himself wandered into the gunfight and didn't realize it until he saw bleeding people. There will be people around, either down the hallway, or behind walls that are concealment but not cover. There's really no way to make sure that your shots are 100% safe in a shopping mall, but you should at least be aware of the potential dangers of missing and do what you can to minimize the risk.
Mike
If you get caught right in the middle of the mayhem, then, what can you do but make the best out of the situation and try to take down the shooter as fast and safely as you can?
However, I am totally against the idea of running into the fray if you have the option of making a clean, safe getaway. I would believe that most CCWers would be in over their heads in a situation such as this. It's not an argument against people who CCW, but an argument against dangerous situations as the one described.
Unless you are a cop (I feel its an LEO's duty to protect the public so retreat by one would be morally wrong), or an off duty Navy SEAL who has experience and ability in taking out mean dangerous people with swift head shots, I would vote to get the hell away from the danger zone and be done with it, reloads aplenty or not.
However, I am totally against the idea of running into the fray if you have the option of making a clean, safe getaway. I would believe that most CCWers would be in over their heads in a situation such as this. It's not an argument against people who CCW, but an argument against dangerous situations as the one described.
Unless you are a cop (I feel its an LEO's duty to protect the public so retreat by one would be morally wrong), or an off duty Navy SEAL who has experience and ability in taking out mean dangerous people with swift head shots, I would vote to get the hell away from the danger zone and be done with it, reloads aplenty or not.
mljdeckard
Member
I agree to a certain point.
The reason I carry is to protect my family. This includes not leaving them fatherless. When violence erupts, my overwhelming concern is to remove them from danger. This means, retreat, and use my weapon to cover that retreat.
However,
Once this objective is met and my family is out of danger, if I am reasonably certain that there is still a clear need for someone to prevent death, and the police aren't there yet, I will at least go back in and look. I wouldn't engage multiple shooters, but if I had the drop on a single shooter I would engage. Officer Hammond did this. He only had his spouse present. First, he made sure she was safe and told her to get help on the way. THEN, he went after the shooter. If he had been in a position to get more than one family member out of danger, and had been by a main door rather than inside a restaurant, I suspect he would have gotten them into the car first, and THEN gone back in.
In this case, the situation proved to be one where intervention was necessary to prevent death. But we know cases like this are extremely rare. In most cases, when you hear a shot fired, the violence is over and done, it's none of your business, and what you need to do is get out of the way.
The reason I carry is to protect my family. This includes not leaving them fatherless. When violence erupts, my overwhelming concern is to remove them from danger. This means, retreat, and use my weapon to cover that retreat.
However,
Once this objective is met and my family is out of danger, if I am reasonably certain that there is still a clear need for someone to prevent death, and the police aren't there yet, I will at least go back in and look. I wouldn't engage multiple shooters, but if I had the drop on a single shooter I would engage. Officer Hammond did this. He only had his spouse present. First, he made sure she was safe and told her to get help on the way. THEN, he went after the shooter. If he had been in a position to get more than one family member out of danger, and had been by a main door rather than inside a restaurant, I suspect he would have gotten them into the car first, and THEN gone back in.
In this case, the situation proved to be one where intervention was necessary to prevent death. But we know cases like this are extremely rare. In most cases, when you hear a shot fired, the violence is over and done, it's none of your business, and what you need to do is get out of the way.
skinnyguy
Member
I don't have a wife or a girlfriend, therefore, I don't need a leash. I'll be carrying a firearm to CMA, in case i DO need a cell phone later on.
mljdeckard
Member
I can certainly understand why many people, especially guys like US, don't want to be leashed by modern 'conveniences' like a cell phone. But remember how Massad Ayoob put it. "The first one to call the police is the victim. MAKE SURE IT'S YOU AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE."
I am very much looking forward to his writeup of this incident.
I am very much looking forward to his writeup of this incident.
Reaction
I realize that we're not law enforcement and we don't have an obligation to protect the citizens of our country, but I have to feel that I'd want to respond in this situation for the good of all the innocent people. I think I'd call 911 first, inform that I'm a CCW holder and that if armed what do they recommend I do if I have the gunman in sight and he's killing innocent people right in front of me. If they say respond to save lives I'd want to do that, given that the 15 year old girl could have been my daughter (she was someone's daughter), and the other victims left family as survivors that I'm sure are left suffering in their losses.
I don't think I'd want to be a hero, just do the right thing for others. Prior to the police engaging I'd want them to know from a description that I'm the CCW that's the good guy, but when they arrive I'd step aside and let them do the job they're trained for and hope that I was of some assistance in keeping someone's loved ones alive.
I think what the young man did was a terrible thing, taking such innocent lives as he did, and was noted to be 'smiling' when doing so. Sick mind.
I realize that we're not law enforcement and we don't have an obligation to protect the citizens of our country, but I have to feel that I'd want to respond in this situation for the good of all the innocent people. I think I'd call 911 first, inform that I'm a CCW holder and that if armed what do they recommend I do if I have the gunman in sight and he's killing innocent people right in front of me. If they say respond to save lives I'd want to do that, given that the 15 year old girl could have been my daughter (she was someone's daughter), and the other victims left family as survivors that I'm sure are left suffering in their losses.
I don't think I'd want to be a hero, just do the right thing for others. Prior to the police engaging I'd want them to know from a description that I'm the CCW that's the good guy, but when they arrive I'd step aside and let them do the job they're trained for and hope that I was of some assistance in keeping someone's loved ones alive.
I think what the young man did was a terrible thing, taking such innocent lives as he did, and was noted to be 'smiling' when doing so. Sick mind.
profshadow
Member
- Joined
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I carry a S&W 642 with Crimson Laser grips and in a "digital film case" on my belt are two speed strips with the "rest" of the .38s And yeah, I've heard the laser arguments all day long...but I change the batteries every 2-3 months anyway and I love seeing that little red dot.
I also have, though don't wear it all the time, an ankle holster with a KelTech .32 with 11 rnds (extended mag) and a spare 7 mag.
I also practice with both, taking each to the range every other week in turn.
Fortunately, I just don't "do malls" anymore, spending my money in Walmart...and at least I'd know where to get some ammo there!!!
Would I do what I could if it was such a situation? Yeah...and I really like that idea of speakerphone being on, but from cover at least.
Now, if I can just carry around some sort of bandana to tie to my arm so I'd not get shot ....
I also have, though don't wear it all the time, an ankle holster with a KelTech .32 with 11 rnds (extended mag) and a spare 7 mag.
I also practice with both, taking each to the range every other week in turn.
Fortunately, I just don't "do malls" anymore, spending my money in Walmart...and at least I'd know where to get some ammo there!!!
Would I do what I could if it was such a situation? Yeah...and I really like that idea of speakerphone being on, but from cover at least.
Now, if I can just carry around some sort of bandana to tie to my arm so I'd not get shot ....
What I worry about most is the identification issue. Its easy to say, and for a cop to hear "Im a cop", "off duty cop", "off duty officer", or "dont shoot, Police" However there is no quick and easy way to say or to get the point accross that you are a civilian with a concealed weapons permit doing the right thing and defending yourself. "don't shoot, I have a concealed weapons permit" just is not really effective in my mind. In addition to that the credentials for CCW arent shiny, flashy, or easily read, in fact most are harder to identify than a drivers license...so I could see how we could get screwed by this.
Anyone have any ideas on the best way to get around the crappy CCW credentials and long winded explanation of who you are? I dont think saying "CCW holder" would cut it in this situation.
Anyone have any ideas on the best way to get around the crappy CCW credentials and long winded explanation of who you are? I dont think saying "CCW holder" would cut it in this situation.
To tell the cops you're not the bad guy
I agree saying "don't shoot I'm a CCW permit holder" would be kinda pushing it. Perhaps just lower your gun, don't make any quick moves, and point in the direction of the bad guy and say "the bad guy is there"...or some such a thing.
-Benjamin
I agree saying "don't shoot I'm a CCW permit holder" would be kinda pushing it. Perhaps just lower your gun, don't make any quick moves, and point in the direction of the bad guy and say "the bad guy is there"...or some such a thing.
-Benjamin
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
OFFICER, BE CAREFUL!!!! HE'S GOT A GUN!!!! Once you have his attention, announce you are an armed citizen, and ask what you can do to help him solve the problem. More than likely though, he'll be telling you.
I still maintain the clothes we wear go a long, long way towards making an impression on first responders as to your role in the altercation.
I still maintain the clothes we wear go a long, long way towards making an impression on first responders as to your role in the altercation.
So I guess my motorcycle boots, jeans, and vest or long sleeve shirt dont help me much! I know the clothes make the man, or at least they form others opinions, but I am just not willing to change my dress. To bad they dont make CCW permits highly visible to assist in identification
As far as saying "the bad guy is over there" that is all fine and good...but what if I have a gun in my hand and were trying to defend myself when the officers arrived??
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