Very close call

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If the key is carried, or worn on a belt, or left under the mat, what is the difference?? It's still gonna be used to open the door, right? Where is the line drawn, anyway? And more importantly, WHY?

PeacefulJeffrey,
You have already voiced your views that you think the entire enterprise is stupid and pointless and subject to hypocrisy. You are entitled to that belief. But once you voice it you should expect that people will take your questions merely as hostilities and not as requests for information. And I do take your question as hostile and demeaning.
 
The question revolves around whether one who goes armed all the time is being sensibly proactive, a good steward of his and others safety (my position) OR if by arming myself regularly I am somehow denying the L--d's ability to protect me if that is His will. Which could be a symptom of a lack of surrendered heart and faith.

I think that is a specious position, and shows a lack of using the good sense G-d gave a goose. If it's my time, all the training and hardware won't avail me anyway. If it isn't, then whether I am armed or not is again irrelevent and being armed is just good planning.

Wait a minute. I can't figure out what you are getting at,and with your final "all the training and hardware" comment seems to indicate that preparation is futile because of predestiny. It seems to me that you are saying that arming yourself won't help you "if it's your time."

But that "if it's your time" argument can be used ad nauseum to cover just about anything. Why arm yourself ever, at any time, in any place, since obviously if the Lord has it in for you, "all the training and hardware won't avail [you] anyway"? :rolleyes:

I don't think that the Lord micromanages people's lives to the point of blocking bullets or sending robbers along a different street so that we don't cross paths with them. Self protection is up to us -- or are you telling us that you don't wear eye and ear protection at the range, don't wear a helmet on a motorcycle, don't wear a flotation vest while waterskiing...?

How could self-preservation tactics be an affront to God?! :banghead:


-Jeffrey
 
No, Rabbi, it's not meant to be hostile, although it may be taken as intended to be thought-provoking.

Some who are religious endeavor to turn the non-religious around. It is just as fair for those who are non-religious to believe that there is noble purpose in attempting to get others to see the paradox, illogic, and futility that is epitomized in religion.

Suffice it to say that I really am interested in hearing from people who can explain the things I asked questions about. Why is that so hard? Do you find logical challenges to your faith troublesome or disconcerting? If so, why? And if not, then what's the problem?


edit: Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't call anyone or their faith stupid, now did I? And I find it unpleasant that rather than answer my good-faith questions, you ignored them and instead engaged in an ad hominem attack on my motivation and intent. You chose to attempt to divine, interpret, and attack them, and you presume too much, without justification.

Do you realize that your signature could be taken as an insult by Jesus-followers, as it lampoons and trivializes the familiar "What Would Jesus Do?" bracelets and stickers? I certainly hope that you are not of the ilk that wants protection for his own religion but doesn't mind allowing others to suffer indignities based on their faith. That would be hypocritical.

-Jeffrey
 
peacefuljeffrey and The Rabbi...please take this side discussion to PM or email. It's hijacking Chaim's thread for one. It's verging on being hijacked into a divisive topic instead of a unifying one.

And to take my own I advice, I will now PM my take on the matter to peacefuljeffrey.
 
Thanks, Byron Quick.

Chaim, it's going to come down to: is there any way to avoid the situation to begin with that would minimize change to what you're doing now?
Is there a way to increase your odds of not getting targeted, e.g. moving in larger groups, as someone suggested.
Is there a way to increase your security without carrying at all? With carrying things in a way that might be permissable (you mentioned the eiruv so I mean something that isnt necessariy muktza)?
I would say taking the gun as a next-to-last resort. The last resort is using it.
 
I have a legitimate and non-hostile question. What do Orthodox Jews in the Army do on the Sabbath? (US or Israeli Army) I realize many of of soldiers in the Isreali Army are not Orthodox, but surely some are, as well as some in the US Army. In a foxhole, I'd imagine, they would be able to carry their weapons, but how about in garrison? On an RDF force, (Mike Force)? If the answer is they would be able to carry because of the potential for combat, how does this differ from walking on a street in Baltimore where there have been many attacks? Or the streets of Jerusalem?
Or the streets of Laredo? ;) (Sorry, the pun was just sitting there) But seriously, the reference to 'Meet me halfway; buy a ticket' reminds me of another: 'What do you mean I didn't try to save you?; I sent a fire truck, a boat, and a helicopter!'

Does 'Never Again!' mean to the Orthodox the 'Tribe' as a whole, but not being able to defend yourself as an individual one day a week is what's demanded?
Oh, BTW, Minneapolis' suburbs would be an excellent choice for a place to live. Active Jewish community, CCW, Excellent grad school (U of M [Go Gophers!]) and 10,000 lakes! :)
 
Entropy,
there is an idea called "pikuach nefesh" that when there is a danger to life you put aside Sabbath restrictions and do what you need to do. The Israeli army relies on this, legitimately so, but at the same time probably tries to minimize areas where it would be necessary. Obviously a situation like the 1973 war will demand an all-out effort. But other situations might get handled differently.
There are certainly religious soldiers in the US army as well and they rely on the same thing. I would guess in some cases their commanders are sensitive to the issue and try not to assign them detail that would conflict.
 
I see. I am curious as to the degree of potential danger. Obviously a busy Jerusalem intersection might be dangerous anytime, but woudn't a street in Baltimore that is known for muggings be no less dangerous? My wife and I go around about this all the time. I maintain that since you never know when you'll need it, it makes sense to carry 24/7. She maintains that you should only need it going into questionable neighborhoods. I maintain it is better then to avoid said neighborhoods, but certainly to carry there. If knew I was going into an area known for muggings and could not avoid it, I believe that would satisfy the 'pikauch nefesh' requirements, wouldn't it? I am not Jewish, nor do I play one on TV. But I am curious about chiam's predicament; Chiam means life, and I would think he wouldn't want to lose it to some punk who was angry that he didn't have any dead prezs on him.
 
You make a good point. Where do you draw the line between legitimate fear and mere paranoia? I dont think there is a cut and dried answer. As I said in a earlier post, I have never been accosted or robbed on Saturday in my neighborhood, which is a pretty safe place. that doesnt mean it couldnt happen. If I noticed gangs or undesirables hanging around, or read news reports about people being robbed on my normal route I would re-think my situation.
In Chaim's case he is working with several factors, including the illegality of carry in his area. There are different claims being made for his action and they all need to be weighed carefully. Fortunately he doesnt have to do this all by himself. This is what rabbis do, weigh and decide issues like this. His challenge will be to find a rabbi who is gun-friendly and/or sensitive to his needs and the topic and ask him. (The shorthand for that btw is CYLOR--consult your local orthodox rabbi).
 
<mod note>
If you want to have a religious debate about how one chooses to worship God, go somewhere else. The framework of this discussion is within Chaim's chosen faith. Trying to badger Chaim, or anyone else, into questioning their faith is both outside the scope of this thread and the rules of this forum, and ultimately not going to bear any fruitful answers.

-Justin
 
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As my pastor told me, we have to be careful going into Scripture looking for justification for something we want to do anyway.
Your pastor is a wise man. If you want to know if something is allowed or not, you have to have an open mind and not look for something that looks like it might work and grab onto it.

If you decide on Pittsburgh, let me know. Wife did one of her degrees at Duquesne
Will do, Duquesne is one of the schools I am considering at the Ph.D. level (the masters is a bit less likely that I'd do it there). As for the city, I know where I'd live if I move there (the Orthodox community is in Squirrel Hill) and I do know the city fairly well. My dad is from the Pittsburgh area (anyone here know Greene County?, Waynesburg?) and growing up we'd visit Pittsburgh periodically (sometimes generally to go to the city, other times just for a Pirates game).

Dumb question: If you are not allowed to carry keys, how do you secure your residence while at Temple?
In an area without an eruv there are a couple options. In addition to what The Rabbi said, I know people who have bought Realtor style lock boxes (combination lock boxes that fit on your door knob and securely hold your house keys). Some people leave a door unlocked (a bad idea). It is preferable, not a requirement (at least in many situations), to pray in a group so one spouse may stay home and pray alone in order to be able to let the other in (or with older children a kid may stay home to let the parents in). Most people though who live without an eruv use the solutions The Rabbi pointed out and either hide the key or get special belts (or tie clips) where their key is an intergral part of it.

Chaim, it's going to come down to: is there any way to avoid the situation to begin with that would minimize change to what you're doing now...
The Rabbi, I am leaning towards one of two solutions (week long, not only on shabbos). Either quit carrying anything since the knife and pepper spray would be useful against BGs without guns, but if facing BGs with guns who decide to search me (again, searching being something I had never considered before this) it could easily make my situation worse (pepper spray and knives are certainly no match for a gun). The other option I'm considering just as strongly (since I don't like the idea of surrender) is to carry illegally. Needless to say, I will probably not announce publicly, on this board or elsewhere, which of the two I decide (I might PM you if you want me to though since that would be relatively private).

I have a legitimate and non-hostile question.
Entropy, I don't think you needed that introduction to your question. Your post clearly was non-hostile. Sometimes you can tell, even written, when someone is being hostile, and you were not.

As for the questions, The Rabbi did a pretty good job explaining it. When life is at stake there are quite a few exceptions that are allowed.

Certainly in the wartime military many normal sabbath restrictions are eased. Even in peacetime training, life in the military is different than out of the military. You do your best. For routine non-essential tasks you hope you have an understanding CO who won't require that you break the tenents of your religion. When your CO won't be accomodating you simply do your best (your actions while in the military aren't completely yours to choose).

For self-defense considerations, it varies. Some cities' crime rates are bad enough to break sabbath restrictions to carry self-defense impliments, some aren't. As The Rabbi states, in these situations you check with an expert (a rabbi who is knowlegable in both the Jewish Law pertaining to this area, guns, and crime rates).
 
Thanks for the answers! Having worked for the Quakers on a project once, I find the parallels of usage of mechanical things on the repective Sabbaths quite interesting. I find it equally interesting that devout Muslims also lead what amounts to a Kosher lifestyle.


I may have missed the point of Chaim's original post. It was not his religious convictions that prevented hiscarrying but in fact the State of Maryland's restrictions. Correct?
 
It was not his religious convictions that prevented hiscarrying but in fact the State of Maryland's restrictions. Correct?

That is correct. And the reason I didn't have a gun with me to carry after the incident was because I was staying with a friend and hadn't brought a gun with me (not forseeing something would happen in close enough proximity to me to cause me to consider illegally carrying).
 
chaim,

I'm not in your circumstances as I reside in a CCW state and am non-Jewish. However, I would like for you to consider something: it's difficult to predict when you will need to be armed. Things happen without warning. With me, I can guarantee what the outcome would be of picking times to have a weapon availabe...I'd be unarmed when I needed to be armed.

John Ross stated in "Unintended Consequences" that if you go armed 24/7 without a carry permit that you will be arrested for such eventually. I can attest to the truth of that statement. I've been arrested once in my life...guess what the charges were :rolleyes:

Therefore, I no longer visit places where I can't carry legally.
 
Hmmmm

There have already been two encounters, schedule/prepay for a taxi or have police escort you or patrol area more frequently. specifically if they know your route/ schedule they could drive up and down it until all are home safely. I would consider that a more than reasonable accomodation if they are going to have citizens unable to be responsible for their own safety... then safety must be provided. I honestly prefer to use the police since they are the excuse used for why you don't need a weapon... (despite yet another USSC decision to the contrary)
 
Byron, you were arrested for carrying a firearm without the proper or adequate CCW qualification?! Would you please tell us how that turned out, whether there was a trial, conviction, dismissal, bribe, etc.? And how it is that you had the situation work out to where you were not prohibited from again getting a CCW license.

Post or PM. I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

-Jeffrey
 
peacefuljeffrey,

Sure. I was in downtown Augusta planning to stop by the Augusta Sporting Goods Store for something...seven years ago, I forget. Parallel parking with one open space. Right next to the stote's loading zone which had a car parked illegally in two particulars: a)parked in a loading zone and b) parked against the flow of traffic. While I was trying to back my longbed pickup into the slot, I felt a bump and the truck gently rocked. There was no sound of a collision. I looked behind me and there was a larger plastic garbage container right at my back bumper. Wrong. The front edge of my right wheel well had caught the front right quarter panel of the illegally parked undercover narcotics agent car. Unbeknownst to me. He was watching this from inside Augusta Sporting Goods. I looked over at his car and said to self,"I don't think I have enough room to get into this space, thanks to doofus there." So, I drove off to circle the block to find another parking space. Undercover narcotic agent is hurrying to his vehicle meanwhile, in order to pursue the fleeing miscreant, yours truly. I get about halfway around the block when I see the unmarked car with the lights in the grill behind me. I don't make the connection between him and illegally parked car. I pull over. He gets out and immediately handcuffs me. Finds a Seecamp .25 in my right front pocket and a Buck folder in my left front pocket. He asks me if I have a carry permit and I tell him that I've applied for it but have not received it yet. He throws my knife into the bed of my pickup. It looks like it might rain soon. Thanks, officer.

Other officers are arriving by now. The arresting officer is searching my vehicle and pulling out guns and ammunition. I've just purchased a handgun. He gets it. I've got a FN HP under the seat. A couple of cases of 7.62X39. One of the other officers keeps telling the arresting officer that all my handguns are in holsters. Over and over. I have no clue why. Months later I come across a magazine article in some gun rag that states that LEO's rarely find BG's with holsters. Maybe the holster guy was trying to tell the officer arresting me that I was a good guy...let me go. I don't know. During this time, I had foolishly leaned back against a tree. The cuffs weren't double locked so they tightened right down on my wrists. I could no longer feel my right hand and no one would loosen the damns cuffs I wasn't cuff knowledgeable at the time.

I was taken to the Law Enforcement Center and booked. And they finally took off the handcuffs. It was twenty four hours before feeling returned to my right hand. I was charged with carrying a concealed weapon, carry a pistol without a license, improper backing, and failure of duty upon striking (leaving the scene of an accident). Bond was set at $6000(!). I called a bail bondsman, gave him a check, picked up my belt, wallet, keys, and the receipt for my seized weapons. Got a buddy to pick me up and went around to the wrecker service that had my pickup. When I got it back; I searched the bed for my Buck knife. It wasn't there. I checked my receipt and it wasn't listed. I shrugged; figuring that one of the cops needed it more than I did.

I'm a registered nurse. I didn't know how the State Board of Nursing would feel about a misdemeanor conviction on a weapons charge...so I lawyered up. Big time. I hired the best criminal attorey in eastern central Georgia. Three thousand bucks. The ironic thing about this whole situation is that my CCW was sitting signed and approved on the probate judge's desk. He just hadn't mailed it yet

I went to court on December 2. Charges were made in August. Watching the judge; I got a bad feeling. He was putting people on a year's probation for running a stop sign. First offense. Everyone. I pled guilty to improper backing and failure of duty upon striking. The weapons charges were dropped. I was put on two years probation and fined for the traffic charges. I left court in Richmond County and drove to the Burke County Courthouse with my papers. Showed them to the Probate Court Judge and he gave me my CCW which he had been holding while the charges were pending. It cost me about four thousand dollars between bail bondsman, attorney, fines, and probation.

When I picked up my seized weapons, lo and behold!...there was my Buck folder. Turns out that the arresting officer; when he found out that my CCW was approved and waiting on the judge's desk; had retrieved the knife and turned it into evidence. That was the concealed weapon charge. The lack of CCW is carrying a pistol without a license here in Georgia.
 
Clarification. My carrying without permission charge was dropped. However, unless I don't clearly understand the laws involved-conviction of carrying a pistol without a license would not bar you from applying and receiving a license in the future in Georgia. You have to be clear of any supervision of any misdemeanor conviction and a second offense is a felony. Which is another reason that I brought out the big guns for a misdemeanor.
 
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