Deanimator
Member
When I rode the bus and train in Chicago, I was ALWAYS reading something like "Inside Kung Fu" or "Shotgun News". Strangely, nobody ever bothered me...
video of robbery/assault on a bus in Europe
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WTBguns10kOK
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While discharge of a firearm on this bus would be problematic for the other passengers, this beating is just proof that anything can happen at anytime and that you always need to be watching. You don't want to stare, but just use your peripheral vision to see what's happening around you. Maybe a stern look at someone if you feel they are sizing you up, whatever. Trying the turn-around punch isn't all that ingenious, he probly should have been facing the little punk. Just decide what you're going to do if this happens, middle ground is the worst.
I was trying to see the stops being shown to see what quartier of Paris that was.
It is no suprise to anyone who has spent much time in France or Europe who the trouble makers were in that video. Critize this guy all you like (and there is some legitimate room to do so) but the fact is you wander into the wrong area with the wrong people there all by yourself and that is what happens. Nicely dressed white guy all alone on bus full of Algerians/Morocains it is of no suprise that there was trouble irrespective of that gentlmans actions or situational awareness.
I have spent a good deal of time living in Europe and in terms of self defense the laws are just horrible. Sadly they are a reflection of the values many people there have. You should have heard some of the responses I have gotten when people learn that I carry a gun in the states and they are even more shocked when they hear I am comfortable with the idea of using it to defend my self from serious bodily harm or death. You'd think I told them I enjoy clubbing kittens just to watch them die horrible deaths. They react with a smug moral superiority and dismiss the my cowboy attitude and deride the violence of America. Funny how in the last three months I known a handfull of people who have been mugged here and I infact have never known anyone to be mugged where I live. I guess the 100K CCWers there have not contriuted to rising violence. Oh yeah, my car has never been burned nor is a neo facist candidate getting 20% of the vote promising to keep me more safe.
The fact is in Europe young guys like the ones in that video like to look for trouble. That guy might have acted differently and had the exact same thing happen. As much as anything I dont think a guy like him, dressed the way he was, was going to get off that bus without trouble. The best thing he could have doen was not be there. Sure being sauced and alone is asking for troule and may have encouraged them. But it may have turned out just the same had he been very alert etc. The fact is if a group of thugs decides to jump you then you are probably screwed, all the tough guy talk aside.
I have fought Muay Thai for 8 years and trained years in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have trained with and helped train guys who have fought in the UFC (and previously pride fc). I have been in a few scraps and know a thing or two about fighting. I have no illusions that I can fend off multiple attackers. That is movie stuff, and about as real as the gun stuff in movies. Even someone who can and wants to fight will be very hard pressed to face two determined attackers and when you get to three, four, etc chances are very very slim indeed.
I know some seriously tough guys who have come out on the wrong end of group beatings. Hell in France I saw a pretty big guy who was doing an admirable job of putting up a fight get beat down 5 or 6 14-15 yr old kids. Dont kid yourself into thinking that you'll win a fist fight against multiple attackers.
Now a weapon can change things. Of course carrying a viable one is pretty much out of the question. It is pretty amusing talking to my French (and other nationality) friends and collegues. Many if not most French hate and I mean hate those you saw in that video (Jean Marie LePen gets 17% of the country's support, 3/4 of French say there are too many Arabs in their country). They deride the police as ineffective. Yet the idea of allowing people to defend themselves in a viable way is unthinkable for them. It really is a case of reaping what you sow. I will say I am greatly looking forward to my return to the US at the end of this week. I do my best to be smart, alert, avoid the wrong places, avoid the wrong metro/bus lines after certain hours etc but the fact is I feel sooooo much better doing all those things with a pistol on my hip than I do simply hoping that I remain safe by someone else's grace.
What scares me even more is that some places in the US are just as bad and there are those that would happily transform our country into what I am living here (I am talking about self defense but it could be said of so many other things as well). The idea of that makes me shutter.
It is no suprise to anyone who has spent much time in France or Europe who the trouble makers were in that video. Critize this guy all you like (and there is some legitimate room to do so) but the fact is you wander into the wrong area with the wrong people there all by yourself and that is what happens. Nicely dressed white guy all alone on bus full of Algerians/Morocains it is of no suprise that there was trouble irrespective of that gentlmans actions or situational awareness.
I have spent a good deal of time living in Europe and in terms of self defense the laws are just horrible. Sadly they are a reflection of the values many people there have. You should have heard some of the responses I have gotten when people learn that I carry a gun in the states and they are even more shocked when they hear I am comfortable with the idea of using it to defend my self from serious bodily harm or death. You'd think I told them I enjoy clubbing kittens just to watch them die horrible deaths. They react with a smug moral superiority and dismiss the my cowboy attitude and deride the violence of America. Funny how in the last three months I known a handfull of people who have been mugged here and I infact have never known anyone to be mugged where I live. I guess the 100K CCWers there have not contriuted to rising violence. Oh yeah, my car has never been burned nor is a neo facist candidate getting 20% of the vote promising to keep me more safe.
The fact is in Europe young guys like the ones in that video like to look for trouble. That guy might have acted differently and had the exact same thing happen. As much as anything I dont think a guy like him, dressed the way he was, was going to get off that bus without trouble. The best thing he could have doen was not be there. Sure being sauced and alone is asking for troule and may have encouraged them. But it may have turned out just the same had he been very alert etc. The fact is if a group of thugs decides to jump you then you are probably screwed, all the tough guy talk aside.
I have fought Muay Thai for 8 years and trained years in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have trained with and helped train guys who have fought in the UFC (and previously pride fc). I have been in a few scraps and know a thing or two about fighting. I have no illusions that I can fend off multiple attackers. That is movie stuff, and about as real as the gun stuff in movies. Even someone who can and wants to fight will be very hard pressed to face two determined attackers and when you get to three, four, etc chances are very very slim indeed.
I know some seriously tough guys who have come out on the wrong end of group beatings. Hell in France I saw a pretty big guy who was doing an admirable job of putting up a fight get beat down 5 or 6 14-15 yr old kids. Dont kid yourself into thinking that you'll win a fist fight against multiple attackers.
Now a weapon can change things. Of course carrying a viable one is pretty much out of the question. It is pretty amusing talking to my French (and other nationality) friends and collegues. Many if not most French hate and I mean hate those you saw in that video (Jean Marie LePen gets 17% of the country's support, 3/4 of French say there are too many Arabs in their country). They deride the police as ineffective. Yet the idea of allowing people to defend themselves in a viable way is unthinkable for them. It really is a case of reaping what you sow. I will say I am greatly looking forward to my return to the US at the end of this week. I do my best to be smart, alert, avoid the wrong places, avoid the wrong metro/bus lines after certain hours etc but the fact is I feel sooooo much better doing all those things with a pistol on my hip than I do simply hoping that I remain safe by someone else's grace.
What scares me even more is that some places in the US are just as bad and there are those that would happily transform our country into what I am living here (I am talking about self defense but it could be said of so many other things as well). The idea of that makes me shutter.
Hungry Seagull
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Dont be scared. The USA has some really bad places. But I testify even in the worst of the places you will find a friend somewhere. Probably not until the beating is over but someone will lend a hand.
But some parts of the USA... Angels dont tread there. It's best left to the dark ones until such time in the future we can clean em up.
I dont understand Europe anymore. I travel to England two decades ago and understood everyone. Now what I see is many foriegn peoples flooding the place and the entire... scene on the street has changed... I dont understand that now.
However what I saw on that video I understand that person was a perfect example of how not to act when out at night downtown.
But here in the USA people like to stick around until it's all done. No one goes back for seconds.
But some parts of the USA... Angels dont tread there. It's best left to the dark ones until such time in the future we can clean em up.
I dont understand Europe anymore. I travel to England two decades ago and understood everyone. Now what I see is many foriegn peoples flooding the place and the entire... scene on the street has changed... I dont understand that now.
However what I saw on that video I understand that person was a perfect example of how not to act when out at night downtown.
But here in the USA people like to stick around until it's all done. No one goes back for seconds.
RobNDenver
Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 275
I travel to Europe regularly. I always have a weapon and remain in Condition yellow when I am on the tube or the train. To avoid getting beaten up, get a seat on the train. Put yourself in a spot where your back is protected if you can. Don't put your earbuds in and nod off to the music. . . keep a hand in a pocket with a weapon. I always have a Surefire Defender in one pocket and a letter opener or similar knife in the other. It comes over in my checked luggage and goes back the same way.
Don't wear clothing that can be used to pull or bind you. No scarves, or belts on a top coat.
If you are in a conveyance with a bunch of strangers, presume that there are more attackers and you have no chance of getting help so fight like your life depends on it. You have to fight until the threat is ended, so don't stop if there is any fight left in your assailants.
Don't wear clothing that can be used to pull or bind you. No scarves, or belts on a top coat.
If you are in a conveyance with a bunch of strangers, presume that there are more attackers and you have no chance of getting help so fight like your life depends on it. You have to fight until the threat is ended, so don't stop if there is any fight left in your assailants.
Dark Skies
Member
I'd never put myself in that position period. Public transport? Don't make me laugh. I either drive or ride my motorcycle. The thought of getting onto a bus or a train, alone, late at night in one of the UK's cities ... that's for people who want to become statistics.
catspa
Member
Girodin:I have spent a good deal of time living in Europe and in terms of self defense the laws are just horrible. Sadly they are a reflection of the values many people there have.
I've heard that before, but I've never been to Europe to see it firsthand. In fact, the first time I've given Europe more than a passing thought in quite a while was when I opened this thread and saw the video, and started imagining myself in that fellow's situation. There are punks here too, and I think it's useful for us to learn what we can from discussing this guy's misfortune.
The fact is in Europe young guys like the ones in that video like to look for trouble. That guy might have acted differently and had the exact same thing happen. As much as anything I dont think a guy like him, dressed the way he was, was going to get off that bus without trouble. The best thing he could have done was not be there.
Well, yeah. Except sometimes you need to go places and do things, and sometimes where you need to go and what you need to do are not convenient to avoiding the bad side of town. And sometimes trouble comes and finds you even on the good side of town.
The fact is if a group of thugs decides to jump you then you are probably screwed, all the tough guy talk aside. I have fought Muay Thai for 8 years and trained years in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have trained with and helped train guys who have fought in the UFC (and previously pride fc). I have been in a few scraps and know a thing or two about fighting. I have no illusions that I can fend off multiple attackers. That is movie stuff, and about as real as the gun stuff in movies. Even someone who can and wants to fight will be very hard pressed to face two determined attackers and when you get to three, four, etc chances are very very slim indeed. (and later...)Dont kid yourself into thinking that you'll win a fist fight against multiple attackers.
I've never done any training with UFC fighters or the other things you have, and I certainly defer to your experience in that. I'm sorry for the amount of "tough guy talk" in my other post, and I didn't mean it that way, but I have faced more than one attacker, and I thought I was clear about doing everything possible to face them one at a time.
I also don't think those punks were anywhere near the caliber of your sparring partners and trainers - I didn't see disciplined, coordinated movement from them. I think they were more "whackers of opportunity" than trained fighters, and some of the time they couldn't even get out of each others way. I didn't see them as "determined attackers", and that's a big reason why I think a "determined defender" could have put some hurt on them.
Here's something even more important, though. Some members of THR, including myself, are showing our age as we approach "old timer" status. I'm not as strong or quick as I was in my 20's, although I try to stay active and in good condition. My endurance is less, my joints and muscles less limber. That said, this guy was down to no good choices, and in his situation neither surrender or running has much appeal for me. Sure, we'd all like to be packing a handgun when confronted (except for those of us who'd prefer a rifle), but even in America our government insists on disarming us in certain places, and those places are accessible to punks. As I see his options, they laid out like this:
1) Do what he did - don't resist, or resist weakly. We can see how that worked out for him, and he could have fared much worse. The punks got bored with beating on him before they killed him, is what I think, but I'm not going to put my continued existence at the discretion of a gang of punks.
2) Run. This is a better option than surrender, but not by much considering I'm an older guy running from several younger guys, and if I have to fight at the end of my run, I'll be weaker than I am right now. Also, it turns my back to them, which is to my disadvantage.
3) Fight. To the best of my ability, with whatever I have to fight with. It's not an ideal choice, that's for sure, but it beats h*ll out of choices 1 and 2. Fighting has no additional downside, but it has at least some potential for gain. I don't expect to win, in the sense of walking away without a scratch, but if the punks get my wallet, some of them are gonna earn it. If I survive to heal slowly, I need some satisfaction out of the deal.
If you've got an option #4, I'm all ears. But the attitude of "do nothing and hope they don't hurt you too bad" isn't on the table for me, anyway.
I grew up in bear country, and spent a lot of time outdoors. We had an old M12 Winchester that my dad loaded with slugs, and every so often he'd take me out and make me empty it into a stump as fast as I could go. He said, "Son, if you're attacked by a bear, don't die with any shells left. It'd be a shame to lose you, but worse to disgrace the family name."
I guess that's the unfortunate part about being American, that stubborn streak that pushed the pioneers across the plains. I guess the Europeans missed out on that by staying home.
Parker
I've heard that before, but I've never been to Europe to see it firsthand. In fact, the first time I've given Europe more than a passing thought in quite a while was when I opened this thread and saw the video, and started imagining myself in that fellow's situation. There are punks here too, and I think it's useful for us to learn what we can from discussing this guy's misfortune.
The fact is in Europe young guys like the ones in that video like to look for trouble. That guy might have acted differently and had the exact same thing happen. As much as anything I dont think a guy like him, dressed the way he was, was going to get off that bus without trouble. The best thing he could have done was not be there.
Well, yeah. Except sometimes you need to go places and do things, and sometimes where you need to go and what you need to do are not convenient to avoiding the bad side of town. And sometimes trouble comes and finds you even on the good side of town.
The fact is if a group of thugs decides to jump you then you are probably screwed, all the tough guy talk aside. I have fought Muay Thai for 8 years and trained years in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have trained with and helped train guys who have fought in the UFC (and previously pride fc). I have been in a few scraps and know a thing or two about fighting. I have no illusions that I can fend off multiple attackers. That is movie stuff, and about as real as the gun stuff in movies. Even someone who can and wants to fight will be very hard pressed to face two determined attackers and when you get to three, four, etc chances are very very slim indeed. (and later...)Dont kid yourself into thinking that you'll win a fist fight against multiple attackers.
I've never done any training with UFC fighters or the other things you have, and I certainly defer to your experience in that. I'm sorry for the amount of "tough guy talk" in my other post, and I didn't mean it that way, but I have faced more than one attacker, and I thought I was clear about doing everything possible to face them one at a time.
I also don't think those punks were anywhere near the caliber of your sparring partners and trainers - I didn't see disciplined, coordinated movement from them. I think they were more "whackers of opportunity" than trained fighters, and some of the time they couldn't even get out of each others way. I didn't see them as "determined attackers", and that's a big reason why I think a "determined defender" could have put some hurt on them.
Here's something even more important, though. Some members of THR, including myself, are showing our age as we approach "old timer" status. I'm not as strong or quick as I was in my 20's, although I try to stay active and in good condition. My endurance is less, my joints and muscles less limber. That said, this guy was down to no good choices, and in his situation neither surrender or running has much appeal for me. Sure, we'd all like to be packing a handgun when confronted (except for those of us who'd prefer a rifle), but even in America our government insists on disarming us in certain places, and those places are accessible to punks. As I see his options, they laid out like this:
1) Do what he did - don't resist, or resist weakly. We can see how that worked out for him, and he could have fared much worse. The punks got bored with beating on him before they killed him, is what I think, but I'm not going to put my continued existence at the discretion of a gang of punks.
2) Run. This is a better option than surrender, but not by much considering I'm an older guy running from several younger guys, and if I have to fight at the end of my run, I'll be weaker than I am right now. Also, it turns my back to them, which is to my disadvantage.
3) Fight. To the best of my ability, with whatever I have to fight with. It's not an ideal choice, that's for sure, but it beats h*ll out of choices 1 and 2. Fighting has no additional downside, but it has at least some potential for gain. I don't expect to win, in the sense of walking away without a scratch, but if the punks get my wallet, some of them are gonna earn it. If I survive to heal slowly, I need some satisfaction out of the deal.
If you've got an option #4, I'm all ears. But the attitude of "do nothing and hope they don't hurt you too bad" isn't on the table for me, anyway.
I grew up in bear country, and spent a lot of time outdoors. We had an old M12 Winchester that my dad loaded with slugs, and every so often he'd take me out and make me empty it into a stump as fast as I could go. He said, "Son, if you're attacked by a bear, don't die with any shells left. It'd be a shame to lose you, but worse to disgrace the family name."
I guess that's the unfortunate part about being American, that stubborn streak that pushed the pioneers across the plains. I guess the Europeans missed out on that by staying home.
Parker
First problem, MR VICTIM it was stamped all over him, the little twerp was so infective in his punches, the rest not much better, the victim was a decent size, he could have crippled at least one, maybe two of them.
A flat fist punch to the throat of who ever was in front of you, scream and take an eye out, of the next one, that would all you could hope for as a plan, the rest of your time in that kind of a arena, try to stay on your feet.
I travel with a City Stick cane in the UK, very light, very hard, the fiber it is made of is for all intents and purposes unbreakable. It is cut down to lean on it length, on a bus? not so effective, you need a bit of room, but still a major equalizer.
I was targeted one time in an Indian Café in St Helens, Merseyside, just a way of four young scruffs to avoid paying for their meal, they did not know that talking did not equate to winning in a fight.
I was 33 years of age at the time, spent 5 years as a bouncer in Liverpool a few years prior to this incident, 5'10" 210 lbs.
They were still sitting in their booth when I approached with a ten shilling note in my top pocket (a bribe?) the one with the mouth was first on his feet, he got the flat foot on the end of my leg, dead center chest, I attacked the other 3 with fist and a chair.
Big difference when you have room to move, and have been in a whole bunch of violent encounters. The Police were nice, informed me of the injury's the group had sustained! Local Emerg room, radio message to one of the two responders (they were known to the Police).
Two broken noses, three broken ribs one broken arm (the chair) and in 1968, good advice for me, try an other town for our Indian food in future! Time? one and a half minutes, from kick to hit with chair, about. They? jeans and dirty tee's, me? Sports Coat, sharp creased Grey dress pants, collar and tie, rubber soled dress shoes (Steel toe caps) the only dress shoes I owned (bouncer boots?) and my American style rimless specs.
The reason for success? Massive instant attack, they were talking, not really ready to fight yet, mistake. My camouflage helped as well.
"Who is this smiling toff?" And could I admit it to this audience? I loved to fight. At 73 now, carry a Glock 19, try to keep out of trouble, just a retired old chap, with a lovely Wife.
A flat fist punch to the throat of who ever was in front of you, scream and take an eye out, of the next one, that would all you could hope for as a plan, the rest of your time in that kind of a arena, try to stay on your feet.
I travel with a City Stick cane in the UK, very light, very hard, the fiber it is made of is for all intents and purposes unbreakable. It is cut down to lean on it length, on a bus? not so effective, you need a bit of room, but still a major equalizer.
I was targeted one time in an Indian Café in St Helens, Merseyside, just a way of four young scruffs to avoid paying for their meal, they did not know that talking did not equate to winning in a fight.
I was 33 years of age at the time, spent 5 years as a bouncer in Liverpool a few years prior to this incident, 5'10" 210 lbs.
They were still sitting in their booth when I approached with a ten shilling note in my top pocket (a bribe?) the one with the mouth was first on his feet, he got the flat foot on the end of my leg, dead center chest, I attacked the other 3 with fist and a chair.
Big difference when you have room to move, and have been in a whole bunch of violent encounters. The Police were nice, informed me of the injury's the group had sustained! Local Emerg room, radio message to one of the two responders (they were known to the Police).
Two broken noses, three broken ribs one broken arm (the chair) and in 1968, good advice for me, try an other town for our Indian food in future! Time? one and a half minutes, from kick to hit with chair, about. They? jeans and dirty tee's, me? Sports Coat, sharp creased Grey dress pants, collar and tie, rubber soled dress shoes (Steel toe caps) the only dress shoes I owned (bouncer boots?) and my American style rimless specs.
The reason for success? Massive instant attack, they were talking, not really ready to fight yet, mistake. My camouflage helped as well.
"Who is this smiling toff?" And could I admit it to this audience? I loved to fight. At 73 now, carry a Glock 19, try to keep out of trouble, just a retired old chap, with a lovely Wife.
Dark Skies
Member
A ten shilling note? Things have moved on a lot (downwards mainly) since 1968. Scouser , Manchester, Birmingham, London and Northampton punks carry guns now. Even kids as young as fourteen seem to have them. Somehow the 1996 Firearms Act banning handguns didn't seem to bother them one bit.
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