Wadcutters for Defense?
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Cougfan2
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Back in College when I was poor, a buddy and I used to load 38 spl 148 gr HBWC's with the hollow base facing front for defensive rounds. They started keyholing at about 50 ft., but they mushroomed out to about .60 cal when shot into a mud bank. Not sure how they would have worked in a real life SHTF situation, but I think they would have done OK at College Appt. break in range. 
VA27
Member
Not lately, but I have in the past. I will do so again in the future. It's a good load if you do your part.
Bellevance
Member
My nightstand S&W 10-5 has been stoked with wadcutters for years. No over-penetration, low recoil, minimal flash and noise, quick follow-ups.
jmortimer
Member
In the .38/.357 calibers you get around 50% "one shot stops" in actual shootings and in the .45 caliber (Colt) you would get a better result due to "pre-expansion."
LeonCarr
Member
I did I pretty comprehensive test once upon a time with .38 HBWCs loaded backwards. I used both .38 and .357 brass, and varied the velocity from 650 fps to 850 fps. I used a 2.25 inch SP-101, a 4 inch GP-100, and a 6 inch GP-100, and shot 6 round groups from a rest at 7 yards. In every case with every load tested, at least 3 of the 6 rounds of each group keyholed (Hit the paper sideways). Another example is when the wadcutters were loaded correctly with 2.7 grains of Bullseye, the 6 rounds went into one hole at 7 yards. When loaded backwards with the same load, it shot 4 inch groups at seven yards with 4 of the six rounds keyholing.
When loaded base down or using factory ammo, the .38 148 HBWC is a great load for defensive use in small frame snubby revolvers, teaching new shooters, or for competition. I have not been convinced that the HBWC loaded backwards lives up to the hype.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
When loaded base down or using factory ammo, the .38 148 HBWC is a great load for defensive use in small frame snubby revolvers, teaching new shooters, or for competition. I have not been convinced that the HBWC loaded backwards lives up to the hype.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
zxcvbob
Member
How about DEWC's loaded +P? (that's about 3.6 grains of Bullseye) That should leave a mark...
Point 1:
I have been in love with the idea of wadcutters since I read Jim Cirillo's books, and I wish someone would sell those split wadcutters he invented.
Point 2:
Where can I buy 45 colt wadcutters?
Point 3:
Does anybody know anything about these "Manstopper" bullets?
http://customprojectile.3dcartstore...OPPERs-260-Grain-for-revolvers-only_p_24.html
They look like they might expand but not penetrate. Very cool if they work, though.
I figure if they aren't good bullets, you can use them for socket wrenches.
I have been in love with the idea of wadcutters since I read Jim Cirillo's books, and I wish someone would sell those split wadcutters he invented.
Point 2:
Where can I buy 45 colt wadcutters?
Point 3:
Does anybody know anything about these "Manstopper" bullets?
http://customprojectile.3dcartstore...OPPERs-260-Grain-for-revolvers-only_p_24.html
They look like they might expand but not penetrate. Very cool if they work, though.
I figure if they aren't good bullets, you can use them for socket wrenches.
Cougfan2
Member
I did I pretty comprehensive test once upon a time with .38 HBWCs loaded backwards. I used both .38 and .357 brass, and varied the velocity from 650 fps to 850 fps. I used a 2.25 inch SP-101, a 4 inch GP-100, and a 6 inch GP-100, and shot 6 round groups from a rest at 7 yards. In every case with every load tested, at least 3 of the 6 rounds of each group keyholed (Hit the paper sideways). Another example is when the wadcutters were loaded correctly with 2.7 grains of Bullseye, the 6 rounds went into one hole at 7 yards. When loaded backwards with the same load, it shot 4 inch groups at seven yards with 4 of the six rounds keyholing.
When loaded base down or using factory ammo, the .38 148 HBWC is a great load for defensive use in small frame snubby revolvers, teaching new shooters, or for competition. I have not been convinced that the HBWC loaded backwards lives up to the hype.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
I tend to agree with your accuracy assessment, but I didn't really experience much keyholing at 7 yds. although I do agree that base down was far more accurate. My buddy and I were loading with Red Dot and I can't remember the load, but I also loaded with 3.2 grains of Hodgdon Trap 100 (Win 452AA). With base down loads I could put 5 shots in a 2.5" diameter circle at 25 yds from a rest. That was with my Dan Wesson M15, the most accurate revolver I've ever owned (still kicking my self for selling it). My Ruger Security-Six wasn't quite as accurate, but close.
When loaded base down or using factory ammo, the .38 148 HBWC is a great load for defensive use in small frame snubby revolvers, teaching new shooters, or for competition. I have not been convinced that the HBWC loaded backwards lives up to the hype.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
I tend to agree with your accuracy assessment, but I didn't really experience much keyholing at 7 yds. although I do agree that base down was far more accurate. My buddy and I were loading with Red Dot and I can't remember the load, but I also loaded with 3.2 grains of Hodgdon Trap 100 (Win 452AA). With base down loads I could put 5 shots in a 2.5" diameter circle at 25 yds from a rest. That was with my Dan Wesson M15, the most accurate revolver I've ever owned (still kicking my self for selling it). My Ruger Security-Six wasn't quite as accurate, but close.
jmortimer
Member
For .45 Colt a good load is the Federal 225 grain SWCHP which is rated at 81% one shot stops in 36 actual shootings. Point 2 here http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page6.html Point 3 would like to see some penetration testing to see how it holds together.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
I use to use Speer 148 grain HBWC turned a'round in .38 Special cases
for my snubbies. They expanded to almost .60 caliber, and worked well
when fired from the snubbies~!
for my snubbies. They expanded to almost .60 caliber, and worked well
when fired from the snubbies~!
David E
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Dunno, but the quick way is to reverse a 255 SWC and load it base forward.
I've done this with SWC .44 bullets so it's easy to tell at a glance which ones are the "squirrel loads." I seated them nearly flush to the case, much like the .38 full wadcutter loads.
I have not been convinced that the HBWC loaded backwards lives up to the hype.
I've tried the reversed HBWC and have come to the same conclusion.
No over-penetration, low recoil, minimal flash and noise, quick follow-ups.
I have factory wadcutters in the house gun and carry them in J frame size revolvers. In addition to the reasons given by Bellvance is a wadcutter is already in an efficient shape. A hollowpoint has to expand a bit to get that way. They are also a lot easier on the gun itself.
I have been in love with the idea of wadcutters since I read Jim Cirillo's books, and I wish someone would sell those split wadcutters he invented.
Jim did a lot of research looking for the magic bullet and as you're aware. They seemed to come out as wadcutters and I believe he was on to something.
I've tried the reversed HBWC and have come to the same conclusion.
No over-penetration, low recoil, minimal flash and noise, quick follow-ups.
I have factory wadcutters in the house gun and carry them in J frame size revolvers. In addition to the reasons given by Bellvance is a wadcutter is already in an efficient shape. A hollowpoint has to expand a bit to get that way. They are also a lot easier on the gun itself.
I have been in love with the idea of wadcutters since I read Jim Cirillo's books, and I wish someone would sell those split wadcutters he invented.
Jim did a lot of research looking for the magic bullet and as you're aware. They seemed to come out as wadcutters and I believe he was on to something.
Here is a link to an article at Shooting Times.com that I whole-heartedly agree with on using wad cutters as a defensive load:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG_wickedwadcutters_200901/index1.html
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/HG_wickedwadcutters_200901/index1.html
I cast wadcutters with a hard alloy and load them to 900 fps. Great load and it is what I carry, when I carry a 38.
I went the reversed HBWC route when I was young and thought it was "special", until I tested it and found out it was not at all what I envisioned. Water jugs, mud banks, snow banks, watermelons all show great expansion, but drape an old coat over a 5 gallon pail and test it. I switched to hard cast and am happy. It is also a good small game load.
I went the reversed HBWC route when I was young and thought it was "special", until I tested it and found out it was not at all what I envisioned. Water jugs, mud banks, snow banks, watermelons all show great expansion, but drape an old coat over a 5 gallon pail and test it. I switched to hard cast and am happy. It is also a good small game load.
jmortimer
Member
Interesting article. A .357 hole shot through a bad guy at 750 to 850 fps sounds like a great solution to low recoil, accuracy, lower flash and lower cost. Plus your practice round is the same as your defense rounds. It's all good especialy out of a 13 ounce J-frame.
Jim Watson
Member
All you can get from the major makers now is the "midrange wadcutter" at a claimed 750 fps, usually less in practice. There used to be the "service wadcutter" at the same 850 fps rating as the 158 grain roundnose, but those are long off the market.
Buffalo Bore sells a high velocity wadcutter if you like the shape.
The problem with the midrange wadcutter is that while the flat front transmits energy effectively, it doesn't have much to transmit. Unless you are fighting a serious recoil problem, a hollowpoint or the BB fast wadcutter would be a better weapon.
Buffalo Bore sells a high velocity wadcutter if you like the shape.
The problem with the midrange wadcutter is that while the flat front transmits energy effectively, it doesn't have much to transmit. Unless you are fighting a serious recoil problem, a hollowpoint or the BB fast wadcutter would be a better weapon.
david_the_greek
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.... wait a minute. Are people recommending wad cutters for self defense?! I must have been reading too many threads over in the autoloaders sections because they had me under the impression that if you didn't have a .45 or 10mm you mine as well ask the perp to kindly leave! In all honesty though this is pretty interesting, I'd never been aware that people use wad cutters for self defense. Is there any box o truth style testing I can take a peak at? I've been carrying power ball in both my 442 and sp101 but for my current proficiency, wadcutters would improve the speed of my follow up shots drastically. I know that my gf loves my revolvers, especially when loaded with wad cutters but I was always worried that in a self defense situation, full power rounds would be a bit too much for her.
david_the_greek
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all right so I checked that article above, probably should have read that first. Promising, looks like a good option. Quick observation/question, I was shooting S&B wad cutters out of my 442 a week or two ago and noticed key holing at about 7 yards.... what's up with that?
Jim Watson
Member
Yes, there is a substantial minority that favors midrange wadcutters for self defense.
There seems to be no middle ground. You can get support for shooting a wadcutter, you can get agreement on +P hollowpoints. Very few folks use anything in between. Standard pressure hollowpoints are available but are not real common.
Your girlfriend would be better off getting hits with wadcutters than flinching +Ps offtarget.
There seems to be no middle ground. You can get support for shooting a wadcutter, you can get agreement on +P hollowpoints. Very few folks use anything in between. Standard pressure hollowpoints are available but are not real common.
Your girlfriend would be better off getting hits with wadcutters than flinching +Ps offtarget.
I reload 95% of all the ammo I shoot.
Yet my carry load, which I hopefully will never have to shoot, is a soft lead Winchester .38+P SWCHP - the classic 'FBI Load'.
Soft enough to expand, fast enough to make it happen. It's my understanding that the Remington version of this load is softer, and therefore better suited to short barrels than the Winchesters.
I don't have any way to do penetration tests, but I'd like to see what happens with a couple layers of drywall and/or some fir studs.
-Daizee
Yet my carry load, which I hopefully will never have to shoot, is a soft lead Winchester .38+P SWCHP - the classic 'FBI Load'.
Soft enough to expand, fast enough to make it happen. It's my understanding that the Remington version of this load is softer, and therefore better suited to short barrels than the Winchesters.
I don't have any way to do penetration tests, but I'd like to see what happens with a couple layers of drywall and/or some fir studs.
-Daizee
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
I've loaded a good deal of '4dollarbill' 158gr lswc in .357 at about 1250fps for me and nephews revolvers for back-up when hog hunting. haven't shot any hog yet but testing reveals good shooting load.
I have taken cast rn for .32acp and .380acp and cut the nose in 'x' with a jewelers saw. loaded them over healthy charge of BE then shot into wet cardboard. impressive.
I have taken cast rn for .32acp and .380acp and cut the nose in 'x' with a jewelers saw. loaded them over healthy charge of BE then shot into wet cardboard. impressive.
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