Wadcutters for Defense?

[Pudge]

That would not make them subjective.
There are. The manufacturers collect and analyze field performance reports from users.

So, if there is field data that tells us how much more effective a handgun using ammunition that meets FBI standards is vs that same handgun using wadcutters, it seems that we can end this debate.

 

[Kleanbore]

So, if there is field data that tells us how much more effective a handgun using ammunition that meets FBI standards is vs that same handgun using wadcutters, it seems that we can end this debate.

I would doubt that the manufacturers care about the performance of wadcutters in that context.

 

[Pudge]

I would doubt that the manufacturers care about the performance of wadcutters in that context.

I agree, I doubt that the data exists.

Not only that, but we're talking about results that are extremely difficult to quantify from very dynamic situations.

If an attacker takes a one shot hit to the CNS with a wadcutter, while another gers clipped in the forearm by a Gold Dot, bullet performance counts very little in either situation.

You may be confident that the data proving a measurable increase in the effectiveness of handguns in stopping threats since the adoption of FBI testing standards exists, but I remain skeptical.

 

[Kleanbore]

You may be confident that the data proving a measurable increase in the effectiveness of handguns in stopping threats since the adoption of FBI testing standards exists, but I remain skeptical.

In a discussion linked here some time ago, Jason Vanderbrink, president of Speer, CCI, etc., described the testing they perform and the way the results are reflected in their products. He went on to say that they remain in continual contact with the FBI and with LEO users to stay abreast of field performance.

It stands to reason that they cannot gather scientific measurements from the field, but that what they are looking for is factual data that would indicate performance problems with their products in actual usage.

How would you do it?

These corporate leaders are responsible for the protection off shareholder assets and for ensuring adequate returns on the substantial investments made in product design, materials development, production engineering, and testing.

Notwithstanding the testing standards, today's premium defensive ammunition is far superior to the products of yore, in terms of penetration, holding together during penetration, reliability of expansion, expansion after having gone though fabric, and performance in passing through solid barriers.

Why would anyone doubt that the ammunition performs better in the field?

 

[Pudge]

If someone were to suggest that, in the field, expansion and over penetration played no role in the efficacy of a handgun's ability to stop a threat, would you have data, from the field, to correct their misconception?

 

[Kleanbore]

If someone were to suggest that, in the field, expansion and over penetration played no role in the efficacy of a handgun's ability to stop a threat, would you have data, from the field, to correct their misconception?

How could over penetration play a role in wounding effectiveness?

 

[Pudge]

Will over penetration cause a bullet to fail FBI testing?

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Midrange wadcutters for self defense appear to be the low recoil choice now that there are few .32s on the market.

There used to be a standard wadcutter at higher velocity but not up to the heavy charge you get from Buffalo Bore. Too bad it is gone.

Me? I put up with 158 gr lead hollow points for a long time, now use the 135 gr Gold Dot "short barrel".

How many FPS do you consider to be "higher velocity" at 148g with a 4-inch barrel? For that matter, how many FPS would be considered a "poof" load for .38 Special?

I'm trying to collect some general .38 WC knowledge.

 

[Kleanbore]

Will over penetration cause a bullet to fail FBI testing?

There is a maximum allowable penetration depth in the FBI protocol.

 

[Jim Watson]

How many FPS do you consider to be "higher velocity" at 148g with a 4-inch barrel? For that matter, how many FPS would be considered a "poof" load for .38 Special?

I'm trying to collect some general .38 WC knowledge.

When midrange wadcutters were listed as 750 fps from whatever barrel in use at the time, the standard wadcutter was 850 fps, same as the 158 roundnose.

 

[TTv2]

Yep .. a shorter titanium cylinder with a longer protruding forcing cone .. 6 shot 32 Mag ..
perfect pocket carry BUG

No, that means the frame portion is still the same length. Make the cylinder window shorter (and smaller cuz smaller cylinder diameter) thus make the frame shorter. This reduced weight and size. A longer forcing cone and trimmed cylinder are stupid.

 

[IWAC]

I recently found this video on YouTube discussing the utilage of full wadcutter ammunition in .38 special revolvers for the purposes of self defense:

I now carry a Ruger LCR .38 special for pocket carry and am very intrigued in possibly using wadcutters.
Thoughts and input on this concept would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

It seems to me Factory Wadcutters are a viable defense cartridge. Back in the day, I handloaded Hollow Base Wadcutters backwards until I noticed oval and rectangular holes in the targets. According to the Lucky Gunner site, Winchester Target Wadcutters give the highest velocity. Good accuracy is what they are built for. There is a very good, in-depth article on full charge wadcutters somewhere on the 'net. Can't remember the author or title.

 

[lowercase]

View attachment 1141744
LWC in this

I've got one of those little guys. It has a metal side plate and was sold as factory-reconditioned or something, due to the installation of the metal side plate.. I got mine from Gunbroker. My LGS was laughingly calling them the "Re-View". I had been calling it the "Non-view View", or "Unview".
I used Critical Defense Lite (the pink-tipped stuff) in mine when firing it. Anything else was painful. I didn't have any 148gr target WC on hand, or I would have used that, too. If carried, I would want either of those two rounds in it.
It's a shame they didn't offer it in .32 Mag as a 6-shooter.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

148gr wadcutters out of a 2" snub achieve about 800 fps and penetrate 20-inches.

 

[AJC1]

The case for what you shoot often and shoot well is more important than performance in media. The possibility of a miss or collateral is my biggest concern. I don't shoot wadcuters so that would not be my choice, but a 156 rnfp isn't going to get more votes for performance reasons. It's the thousands per year I shoot that my gun is shighted for and im well practiced for that makes sense to me.

 

[wcwhitey]

I use the 135 Grain Speer “Short Barrel” in my modern .38 revolvers. I have a bunch and even in the airweights it’s not a heavy recoiling round even though it is Plus P rated. The Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain Standard Pressure gets carried in my older revolvers like a 1957 Colt Agent (alloy frame) and an early 70’s Charter Arms Undercover neither are Plus P rated. At least in my hands the Hornady recoils about the same as the Speer. Mid Range factory Wadcutters were always the go to round for the older light weight snubbies and still the lightest recoiling in my opinion. The Wadcutters just made sense when there was not a bullet produced that would reliably expand in a 1 7/8 barrel let alone one not +P rated. We have some better options now but a good old Wadcutter is still not bad choice. Fiocci, MagTech and PRVI Partisan still make them and I have a few boxes of each. For recoil sensitivity I still see them as a viable option. I always look at it like .357 diameter is what the best .22 or .22 Mag would “maybe” expand too and not to far off what most .312 bullets expand to. One could do worse.

 

[nugi]

I use the 135 Grain Speer “Short Barrel” in my modern .38 revolvers. I have a bunch and even in the airweights it’s not a heavy recoiling round even though it is Plus P rated. The Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain Standard Pressure gets carried in my older revolvers like a 1957 Colt Agent (alloy frame) and an early 70’s Charter Arms Undercover neither are Plus P rated. At least in my hands the Hornady recoils about the same as the Speer. Mid Range factory Wadcutters were always the go to round for the older light weight snubbies and still the lightest recoiling in my opinion. The Wadcutters just made sense when there was not a bullet produced that would reliably expand in a 1 7/8 barrel let alone one not +P rated. We have some better options now but a good old Wadcutter is still not bad choice. Fiocci, MagTech and PRVI Partisan still make them and I have a few boxes of each. For recoil sensitivity I still see them as a viable option. I always look at it like .357 diameter is what the best .22 or .22 Mag would “maybe” expand too and not to far off what most .312 bullets expand to. One could do worse.

Why are almost none of the modern short barrel cartridges weighted for snub point of aim like WC’s and SWC’s are? Haven’t ever found Speer Short Barrel but the Hornady and some others that get good short barrel expansion are hard to be accurate with quickly at any distance (I don’t buy snub is for bad breath distance only)