Walther P22 Slide Failure W/Pics.....
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HisSoldier
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Is that a fact that the slide is aluminum? I always figured that with plastic guns at least the slide was steel. Can't count on anyone using steel except for the barrel I guess.
I guess I didn't read to the end, no kidding, ZINC! Why would anyone knowingly buy a zinc gun?
I guess I didn't read to the end, no kidding, ZINC! Why would anyone knowingly buy a zinc gun?
Ed Ames
Member
I'd be amazed if it was zinc. I'd bet money it isn't zinc.
Here's the problem: The designer wanted a blowback .22 where the whole slide moves. Blowback actions balance the weight of the breach block (the whole slide in this case) and the rearward force of the chamber pressure on the case (driving the case out and therefore the breach block back). Since .22 rimfire provides a fixed amount of rearward force the mass of the breach block must be pretty standard as well. You don't have a lot of wiggle room.
If you weighed that slide (or the parts of the slide) and weighed the breach block on a Ruger .22 pistol, a browning .22 pistol, a .22 semi-auto rifle, and so on, you'd find that they were all about the same weight.
So if you want it to be physically bigger, what do you do? Two choices: Thinner material, or less dense material.
If you wanted to make that slide out of steel it would need to be tin-can thin. You wouldn't be able to work the slide without denting it. Making the slide out of aluminum allows them to make the part thicker and therefore more rigid because aluminum is less dense. In fact the aluminum slide's metal can be 2-3 times as thick for the same weight. Thicker means you can squeeze it without crushing, you can bang it around without denting as often, etcetera.
How about zinc? Well, zinc weighs almost as much as steel but it isn't nearly as strong. Bad deal... if that was OK they would've just made the slide out of steel.
The problem is that even aluminum is too dense for the size gun they want to make. If they made the slide smaller (a partial slide, e.g. with an open top that shows the barrel) they could make it more solid (even in aluminum). If they had gone to a bolt in the back like most .22s use they could have made it from steel. As it is, they went for style.
Here's the problem: The designer wanted a blowback .22 where the whole slide moves. Blowback actions balance the weight of the breach block (the whole slide in this case) and the rearward force of the chamber pressure on the case (driving the case out and therefore the breach block back). Since .22 rimfire provides a fixed amount of rearward force the mass of the breach block must be pretty standard as well. You don't have a lot of wiggle room.
If you weighed that slide (or the parts of the slide) and weighed the breach block on a Ruger .22 pistol, a browning .22 pistol, a .22 semi-auto rifle, and so on, you'd find that they were all about the same weight.
So if you want it to be physically bigger, what do you do? Two choices: Thinner material, or less dense material.
If you wanted to make that slide out of steel it would need to be tin-can thin. You wouldn't be able to work the slide without denting it. Making the slide out of aluminum allows them to make the part thicker and therefore more rigid because aluminum is less dense. In fact the aluminum slide's metal can be 2-3 times as thick for the same weight. Thicker means you can squeeze it without crushing, you can bang it around without denting as often, etcetera.
How about zinc? Well, zinc weighs almost as much as steel but it isn't nearly as strong. Bad deal... if that was OK they would've just made the slide out of steel.
The problem is that even aluminum is too dense for the size gun they want to make. If they made the slide smaller (a partial slide, e.g. with an open top that shows the barrel) they could make it more solid (even in aluminum). If they had gone to a bolt in the back like most .22s use they could have made it from steel. As it is, they went for style.
atblis
Member
ha ha
Here's something else for you to ponder. The P22 is actually based off of a PAK pistol that is intended for the European market. Basically, it is a blank firing pistol that's been converted to 22 rimfire. Ever wonder why the barrel has a rifling insert? I haven't been able to figure out which one came first, but I suspect the PAK pistol did.
Umarex makes the 9mm PAK pistol, and by all appearances the P22 as well. They are nearly identical.
People have called S&W and asked. S&W said it was a Zinc alloy. So unless their CS people are misinformed (not unusual actually), it appears to be Zinc alloyed with something. Don't let the Walther name fool you. It is not made by Walther.
Here's something else for you to ponder. The P22 is actually based off of a PAK pistol that is intended for the European market. Basically, it is a blank firing pistol that's been converted to 22 rimfire. Ever wonder why the barrel has a rifling insert? I haven't been able to figure out which one came first, but I suspect the PAK pistol did.
Umarex makes the 9mm PAK pistol, and by all appearances the P22 as well. They are nearly identical.
well whatever it is, a magnet does not stick to it, so there's not a whole lot of iron in there. even more off topic, are we forgetting the walther p38 in .22 cal? (the complete pistol - not the 9mm to .22 conversion kit). very nice .22.
http://p.38d.home.att.net/22lr/index.htm
http://p.38d.home.att.net/22lr/index.htm
Ed Ames
Member
I just did some research... and yeah, I would've lost that bet. Appears to be molded (MIM) "zinc alloy".
On the other hand... Aluminum-zinc is a viable alloy (and less dense than pure zinc) with acceptable properties for MIM... and as I understand it a problem with cracking.
Zinc, huh? I'd say this gun is an example of VERY BAD engineering.
On the other hand... Aluminum-zinc is a viable alloy (and less dense than pure zinc) with acceptable properties for MIM... and as I understand it a problem with cracking.
Zinc, huh? I'd say this gun is an example of VERY BAD engineering.
Funderb
Member
zinc wouldn't break like that (perfect fracture line).
My bet is aluminum. It just wears out if thers is an impurity in it, and splits like wood around it.
Zinc has a tendency to splinter, stretch, or shatter before fracturing into clean peices.
sorry that had to happen to you, man.
My bet is aluminum. It just wears out if thers is an impurity in it, and splits like wood around it.
Zinc has a tendency to splinter, stretch, or shatter before fracturing into clean peices.
sorry that had to happen to you, man.
Wow, that's a pretty serious defect! Glad you're OK; .22 might not be all that hot, but I have no doubt that it can injure seriously if it hits you in the right place.
Those assessments aren't exactly fair. The P22 is a very, very common gun (particularly considering how long it's been out), and very few problems have been reported. Stuff like this happens to the best guns, and you'd be hard pressed to find a pistol for ~$300 and expect perfection - though for $300 the P22 comes pretty damn close.
I've had my P22 for about two years now, and I'd figure I and my wife have put approximately 200 rounds through it per week (sometimes not at all, sometimes 500+)- for a total around, I'd guess, 17,000-23,000 rounds (wow, more than I'd thought). That is a hell of a lot of shooting for a little .22. It is indeed starting to wear on contact points, though it is still mechanically sound.
That's not half bad for a $300-and-change .22 pistol made from aluminum!
Yes, it has some FTF/FTE, but no more than any other .22 semi-automatic I've seen - cheap .22 ammo is typically under-powered and crap. It's not a HD or CCW, so that's not such a concern - it's a range plinker. With $12/400 Remington "Game Loads" I can get through 'em all with only a handful of failures, most of which with the ammo/primers. I just avoid crap ammo (CCI Blazer comes to mind). And it still runs pretty damn well when dirty.
Glad Walther is honoring the repair/replacement on that piece.
Those assessments aren't exactly fair. The P22 is a very, very common gun (particularly considering how long it's been out), and very few problems have been reported. Stuff like this happens to the best guns, and you'd be hard pressed to find a pistol for ~$300 and expect perfection - though for $300 the P22 comes pretty damn close.
I've had my P22 for about two years now, and I'd figure I and my wife have put approximately 200 rounds through it per week (sometimes not at all, sometimes 500+)- for a total around, I'd guess, 17,000-23,000 rounds (wow, more than I'd thought). That is a hell of a lot of shooting for a little .22. It is indeed starting to wear on contact points, though it is still mechanically sound.
That's not half bad for a $300-and-change .22 pistol made from aluminum!
Yes, it has some FTF/FTE, but no more than any other .22 semi-automatic I've seen - cheap .22 ammo is typically under-powered and crap. It's not a HD or CCW, so that's not such a concern - it's a range plinker. With $12/400 Remington "Game Loads" I can get through 'em all with only a handful of failures, most of which with the ammo/primers. I just avoid crap ammo (CCI Blazer comes to mind). And it still runs pretty damn well when dirty.
Glad Walther is honoring the repair/replacement on that piece.
atblis
Member
Uhh
I would wager that it is a Zinc Al alloy such as ZA27.
I would wager that it is a Zinc Al alloy such as ZA27.
Sgt.Dusk
Member
I was about to buy p22 a while ago just because it was cheaper than
cz122 sport. I'm glad I bought the CZ anyway. It is not solid steel like that kadet
shown above (1st reply, page 3)but still a nice piece. ...and its slide is not some toy alloy.
cz122 sport. I'm glad I bought the CZ anyway. It is not solid steel like that kadet
shown above (1st reply, page 3)but still a nice piece. ...and its slide is not some toy alloy.
evan price
Member
I have well over 6k rounds through my P22 with nothing wrong with it so far. I haven't even cleaned it in 1000 rounds.
Wow, somebody's gun somewhere broke so all of 'em are junk. Real intelligent. By that logic nobody would be driving any car or truck.
Wow, somebody's gun somewhere broke so all of 'em are junk. Real intelligent. By that logic nobody would be driving any car or truck.
Sgt.Dusk
Member
Good point
atblis
Member
Well
Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. The problem is, that the "somebody's" is plural. This is not an isolated incident.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96595
I've yet to shoot a P22 that was reliable or remotely accurate. Then to top it off, they seem to be sporadically coming apart in people's faces, which includes my friends P22, which was the one I've shot the most.
So let's review
Atrocious accuracy (unless you get lucky or have low standards)
Feed and ejection problems common (unless you use expensive ammo)
Numerous other small problems and wear issues
and then to top it off
A slide that stands a much higher chance of coming apart in your face.
It's a shoddily constructed, poorly designed pistol. If you can't see that on your own, I don't know what else to tell you. Blinded by the "cuteness" I suppose.
As to why some people seem to get decent ones and others not so decent. It's a manufactured item, obviously intended to be made as cheaply as possible, even at the expense of functionality. You do not use zinc to make a slide because you care if the gun works. There is no reconciling that. One person gets lucky, the other person not so lucky but hopefully still has both their eyes, and remembers not to buy junk pot metal guns anymore.
Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. The problem is, that the "somebody's" is plural. This is not an isolated incident.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96595
I've yet to shoot a P22 that was reliable or remotely accurate. Then to top it off, they seem to be sporadically coming apart in people's faces, which includes my friends P22, which was the one I've shot the most.
So let's review
Atrocious accuracy (unless you get lucky or have low standards)
Feed and ejection problems common (unless you use expensive ammo)
Numerous other small problems and wear issues
and then to top it off
A slide that stands a much higher chance of coming apart in your face.
It's a shoddily constructed, poorly designed pistol. If you can't see that on your own, I don't know what else to tell you. Blinded by the "cuteness" I suppose.
As to why some people seem to get decent ones and others not so decent. It's a manufactured item, obviously intended to be made as cheaply as possible, even at the expense of functionality. You do not use zinc to make a slide because you care if the gun works. There is no reconciling that. One person gets lucky, the other person not so lucky but hopefully still has both their eyes, and remembers not to buy junk pot metal guns anymore.
HisSoldier
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I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but I'm a purist materials snob. I have no appreciation of plastic or aluminum in a gun. In my opinion the use of plastic, aluminum and other non steel materials in handguns ( Other than the grip panels) points to one thing. The manufacturer wants to compete and make a profit, and the buyers are not discriminating enough to know the difference. Thirty five years ago only absolute junk guns were made using zinc. Now people buy them not even knowing what they are paying for. Heck, I didn't know! Looked like a real gun to me when I saw one yesterday. I knew the frame was plasticrud, but almost all the modern guns are. I wouldn't buy one, but I didn't have a clue the slide was zinc! People, please, lets start a reformation. Demand steel framed guns, with steel slides. If we don't vote against trash materials with our wallets the manufacturers will get more and more brazen in producing and selling junk!
FieroCDSP
Member
HisSoldier...I have trouble understanding your extreme hatred for ploymer guns. Though everyone is entitled to their opinion and to buy what they want, to declare "anything but steel is crap" is extremely narrow-minded. I hope to be here the day you come across a polymer gun that trips your trigger so I can post this link as a reminder. 
There's a gun for everyone out there. If someone wants to buy the P22, despite the seemingly low quality, that's their issue. Obviously they sell quite well, or they wouldn't be produced still. Also, there aren't that many slide breakages or something would have been done, by the maker or the demand of the people who bought them.
As was posted earlier, the breakage seems to happen due to impacting with the compensator on the 5" models. Okay, design issue, Smith is dealing with the guy, as they have the others, and is no doubt working to fix the manufacturing problem. Rather than recall all of the guns for a problem that isn't life-threatening (no injuries reported, and they would be), they are fixing them as they come up. It's the most cost effective way of doing things.
Seriously, comparing a P22 to a Jennings is overly exagerating the problems associated with the gun. After the first 500 rounds (break in), my P22 works better dirty than it does clean. No recent stove-pipes or fail to feeds. Perhaps I should turn it in for a broken one so I can complain as much as the nay-sayers expect me to?
There's a gun for everyone out there. If someone wants to buy the P22, despite the seemingly low quality, that's their issue. Obviously they sell quite well, or they wouldn't be produced still. Also, there aren't that many slide breakages or something would have been done, by the maker or the demand of the people who bought them.
As was posted earlier, the breakage seems to happen due to impacting with the compensator on the 5" models. Okay, design issue, Smith is dealing with the guy, as they have the others, and is no doubt working to fix the manufacturing problem. Rather than recall all of the guns for a problem that isn't life-threatening (no injuries reported, and they would be), they are fixing them as they come up. It's the most cost effective way of doing things.
Seriously, comparing a P22 to a Jennings is overly exagerating the problems associated with the gun. After the first 500 rounds (break in), my P22 works better dirty than it does clean. No recent stove-pipes or fail to feeds. Perhaps I should turn it in for a broken one so I can complain as much as the nay-sayers expect me to?
TimboKhan
Member
Your about 20 years to late with that rallying cry. People have been voting with their wallets on this issue for a long, long time now, and polymer framed guns are winning pretty handily.
HisSoldier
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If you buy zinc guns you deserve what you get.
Ed Ames
Member
Aluminum, polymer, and even zink are fine so long as the design is right. The problem here isn't the material per se, but the combination of material and style. Use exactly the same materials in a gun that is designed to *function* correctly and hang the apearance instead of designed to look like a "real" gun (with full size slide) and you are in good shape.
Look at that CZ Kadet... they tried to make it look like a centerfire pistol but drew the line at function. They compromised the appearance to make it work better. As a result it looks kinda goofy because the moving part is just the small bolt and the "slide" is fixed... but it'll last hundreds of thousands of rounds because they designed for function first. The P22, OTOH, looks like a centerfire pistol. The whole slide moves. Nice... except for reality.
Look at that CZ Kadet... they tried to make it look like a centerfire pistol but drew the line at function. They compromised the appearance to make it work better. As a result it looks kinda goofy because the moving part is just the small bolt and the "slide" is fixed... but it'll last hundreds of thousands of rounds because they designed for function first. The P22, OTOH, looks like a centerfire pistol. The whole slide moves. Nice... except for reality.
Funderb
Member
I think that the kadet looks really cool like that.
And the funstionality is great.
I'd buy one if I had $400 laying around.
And the funstionality is great.
I'd buy one if I had $400 laying around.
ZeSpectre
Member
Hate to say it but I had the same thing in the same place (fortunately mine didn't separate and go flying anyplace) at right around 600 rounds. Walther replaced it with a completely new gun which had it's own set of FTF issues so I sold that one and I've been done with that particular model since. Too bad, loved the way it looked and felt in my hand.
outofbattery
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Me too.I refuse to even ride in a car without chrome steel bumpers and wouldn't drink from a plastic cup if I was dying of thirst
KBintheSLC
Member
I would have gone to the ER for an exam/documentation then proceeded to contact my attorney and file suit. This is downright lousy. Walther used to be an excellent German gun maker. Throughout the decades and multiple ownership transfers, their products have gone to the dumps. I bought a brand new PPK/S early this year that was very unreliable and poorly machined internally. I really don't know how S&W can put their name on such trash. On top of that, these are not cheap price wise. I would expect it out of a $200 gun from China. Not a US made $300-500 piece.
My advice, document any injuries you incurred (maybe visit your doctor). Save your images of the failure, and save some ammo from the batch you were using. Take all of this to your attorney and file suit. That may be the only thing that will get S&W to stop selling the garbage Walther suite or at least improve their QC.
Sorry about the rant but this really pisses me off.
My advice, document any injuries you incurred (maybe visit your doctor). Save your images of the failure, and save some ammo from the batch you were using. Take all of this to your attorney and file suit. That may be the only thing that will get S&W to stop selling the garbage Walther suite or at least improve their QC.
Sorry about the rant but this really pisses me off.
HisSoldier
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"I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but I'm a purist materials snob."
"Me too.I refuse to even ride in a car without chrome steel bumpers and wouldn't drink from a plastic cup if I was dying of thirst"
Actually I don't think of guns the same way I do cars. If the key turns the engine on and I get where I want to go that's fine.
Guns though, that's different. To me a gun is an heirloom, like artwork or fine silverware. I don't buy a gun the same way I buy even a micrometer. I've tried to think of it that way, just another tool, but with guns it just doesn't work for me. A car is a tool for me. A gun is much more.
"Me too.I refuse to even ride in a car without chrome steel bumpers and wouldn't drink from a plastic cup if I was dying of thirst"
Actually I don't think of guns the same way I do cars. If the key turns the engine on and I get where I want to go that's fine.
Guns though, that's different. To me a gun is an heirloom, like artwork or fine silverware. I don't buy a gun the same way I buy even a micrometer. I've tried to think of it that way, just another tool, but with guns it just doesn't work for me. A car is a tool for me. A gun is much more.
I see we have gone from a bashing of the P22 to a bashing of Walther in general. Let's see - Walther P38 - most advanced pistol of ww2; used with great success in tens of dozens of countries since, even today. Walther OSP .22 cal - used by too many Olympic winners to count. Replaced by Walther SSP - same results. Walther P4, P5, P88, P99, all highly rated, excellent 9mm pistols. Maybe we can get this thread back on track to the P22 'problem'. Oh, screw it. Let's get some lawyers involved! That's the American way.
HisSoldier
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Well, as I said, I like my Walther PPK/S. If people want to buy plastic guns and aluminum guns and guns made of zinc it's their fault we have so many of them. If they want zinc guns who am I to enlighten them about what quality used to mean. Well, I'm someone who was here when zinc meant garbage, that's who.
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