wanting a .308 rifle ~$1000

[MachIVshooter]

what id really like is something i can make from an 80% receiver, i like to keep my EBRs off the books since those are ALWAYS the ones targeted when ban talks come up, unfortunately i cant do that with either the FAL or M77 and to my knowledge the only two out there that can be made from an 80% is the AR-10 and HK91/G3

There are incomplete receivers for the FAL, but finishing them is not for the inexperienced, or the meek.

As well, if you think they are not keeping watch on orders for incomplete receivers, you're fooling yourself. The only way you'd really be "off the radar" is to pay cash locally for parts, or to build it from scratch (and not just the receiver).

Of course, you're talking about it here, so apparently you're not too concerned with being clandestine.

And FWIW, the 80% thing is a term our camp came up with; as far as BATFE is concerned, they either are or are not firearms, and there is not a specific number of operations to be completed or amount of material to be removed that determine this.

 

[js8588]

Justin, get the Vepr 308. Heavier barrel than the M77, chromed barrel, chamber, and piston, and just as accurate. Atlantic will have more in very soon and your AK Files membership will get you a discount off the list price https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/co...vepr-308-rifle-20-barrel-detail.html?Itemid=0. If you can't wait, Arms of America has them in stock now, as does Legion USA and AIM Surplus.

 

[justin22885]

i want to like the HK/PTR more.. very accurate, incredibly reliable.. unfortunately though its hell on brass and a port buffer doesnt take care of the issues 100%, and since i reload 100% of the time, all my ammo are typically reloads, that tends to be a problem

js8588, i may just get the vepr 308.. i would have to de-rivet the whole damn thing though so i can put a proper AK receiver and rear trunnion on the thing, screw that slant back thumbhole stock crap.. i think id keep the saiga style handguards though.. no handguard retainer means one less think attached to the barrel, and turn down the end of the muzzle for an AKM front sight block

looks like that vepr uses the same length receiver as an AKM, it would appear the magazine has been pushed back further though as the trigger guard appears smaller (i believe thats how the 308 galil squeezed a 308 magazine in there too)

 

[js8588]

Justin,
I love PTRs and will be getting a few in time. I know you're an AK guy, through and through. No need to de rivet the Vepr. Plenty of people sell stock adapters (CANIS, for example).

 

[justin22885]

i would want to put a conventional AK rear trunnion in and use the galil style right side folder, or use an AK builder trunnion and run an ACE side folding hinge with similar stock.. still though, tough decision im going to have to think long and hard on, AK, HK, or FAL.. easy answer is get all three which im going to have to do at some point

problem with .308 AKs is magazines are quite expensive, heck, they are for my 5.56 AK as well.. any money i save on it being a cheaper rifle will quickly add up when i start buying mags.. ive actually drawn up and designed a very simple sheet metal magazine well that holds AR-10 mags and uses the AR-10 mag release components that could be riveted or spot welded to the Ak receiver.. but not sure i want to go that route so i'm actually leaning towards the FAL.. and itll give me something new to try out as im already used to AKs.. would be nice to venture in another direction for a little bit

 

[js8588]

Use the Canis adapter and pick up a Magpul Zhukov Side folder. Go to CSSPecs for the mags. The days of cheap FAL mags are over and they tend to choke on steel case. If you want cheap mags, get the PTR. If you want familiarity in platform, stick with the Vepr.

 

[justin22885]

CANIS adapter is for AR-15 mags, they dont make one for AR-10 mags on .308 cal AKs, that id have to make myself, which i could do, i'll probably go with the FAL or HK

i'd like to hear from people who have used port buffers on their HKs, if anyone has achieved the ability to preserve 100% of their ammunition from being damaged from the rifle?.. even without denting, im not convinced the shoulder of the cartridge isnt blown out forward a bit due to the partial extraction of a delayed blowback, if anyone has been able to save 100% of their cases (except for those damages for other reasons, like perhaps the brass has been reloaded too many times), then i want to hear about it, id also like to know the average number of reloads people have gotten from them.. if i can be confident my efforts to weld on a permanent port buffer arent going to be completely wasted then i will probably go back to the HK

 

[MachIVshooter]

i'd like to hear from people who have used port buffers on their HKs, if anyone has achieved the ability to preserve 100% of their ammunition from being damaged from the rifle?.. even without denting, im not convinced the shoulder of the cartridge isnt blown out forward a bit due to the partial extraction of a delayed blowback, if anyone has been able to save 100% of their cases (except for those damages for other reasons, like perhaps the brass has been reloaded too many times), then i want to hear about it, id also like to know the average number of reloads people have gotten from them.. if i can be confident my efforts to weld on a permanent port buffer arent going to be completely wasted then i will probably go back to the HK

The problem is not the overly violent ejection or fireforming. It is the fluted chamber, and there is no getting around that. It puts such pronounced striations in the case that they get stuck in the die, regardless of lube type/quantity.

 

[js8588]

I was referring to the Canis Stock adapter, not Mag adapter.

EDIT: looks like the Canis adapter only works for M4 style stocks. This would work for a sidefolder http://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/product_p/dph-int-sleeve-adpt.htm

 

[justin22885]

MachIVshooter, i have NEVER seen the fluting leave those kinds of marks in the brass.. often carbon fouling deposits and you can assume some fatigue along these lines but the brass in that photo looks like the fluting as raised or something.. that looks like an absolute extreme.. i would like the know the circumstances of that particular piece of brass, those are some pretty deep cuts, i never had any brass that looked that messed up from the fluting

 

[Dean1818]

MachIVshooter, i have NEVER seen the fluting leave those kinds of marks in the brass.. often carbon fouling deposits and you can assume some fatigue along these lines but the brass in that photo looks like the fluting as raised or something.. that looks like an absolute extreme.. i would like the know the circumstances of that particular piece of brass, those are some pretty deep cuts, i never had any brass that looked that messed up from the fluting

I am also looking into the PTR91

There are many more owners on the HKPro.com site on forums (look for clones)

I have an AR15 in 6.8, which is an awesome rifle, but I really want 308...... just not another AR

The PTR91 takes the G3 spare parts, and as you have noted the mags are CHEAP


I like the version that has a mount welded on, and the wide forearm

I also like the fast firing capability of the PTR91. (check the videos)

The PTR seems to tame the recoil


Also, for those that complain about the weight of the PTR, almost ALL 308s that other people like better are within a 1/2 lb of the PTR.......


I also am a reloader, and know that you can reload cases with minor dents.... many people claim to have installed the port buffer and they can reload

 

[greyghost01]

Apparently you do not like American Made so You should by a Saiga or Yugo or what ever you feel comfortable with, Ar's are a special breed of weapon it screams American ingenuity.
Where MOA is measured at 1/2 to 1/4 not 3-5 inches, And everyone should respect your dislike for the AR, I fully agree with you, You did not ask for a dependable accurate weapon, I have NO knowledge of 3-5" MOA weapons
Sorry! Enjoy you're search and Good Luck

 

[MachIVshooter]

MachIVshooter, i have NEVER seen the fluting leave those kinds of marks in the brass.. often carbon fouling deposits and you can assume some fatigue along these lines but the brass in that photo looks like the fluting as raised or something.. that looks like an absolute extreme.. i would like the know the circumstances of that particular piece of brass, those are some pretty deep cuts, i never had any brass that looked that messed up from the fluting

My own rifle does that, and I had an entire bucket of 7.62 that was collected at an MG shoot, about half from an M240 and half from a FA HK11; was easy to tell which came from which, and half of that bucket was scrap.

The CETME/G3 family is well known for destroying brass in this manner. If you haven't seen this before, you haven't seen brass that came out of a real HK fluted chamber. Or it was so dirty that the flutes weren't doing anything.

'Course, you could just ignore me like you seem to be everyone else who is trying to offer you sound advise.

 

[justin22885]

the only people im ignoring are those suggesting ARs, bolt actions, and non military rifles after i've said i have absolutely zero interest in any of that.. and ive had a PTR91, ive never seen deep cuts like that in the brass, just dark spots from the carbon, and dents from the ejection port so it was unreloadable for that reason, im not sure though but its possibly the shoulders could be moved forward due to the partial extraction under pressure nature of delayed blowback weapons

it seems to me that the very nature of the fluting, designed to flat the brass in the chamber on a pocket of gas would have an adverse effect if the brass itself was actually digging into the fluting like that, seems to me that would cause as much if not more friction than if the chamber wasnt fluted at all

 

[rbernie]

'Course, you could just ignore me like you seem to be everyone else who is trying to offer you sound advise.

FTW.

the only people im ignoring are those suggesting ARs, bolt actions, and non military rifles after i've said i have absolutely zero interest in any of that..

Your OP was simple:

so im looking for something .308/7.62x51, and under $1000, and can shoot 2MOA groups with average ammo.

And each time somebody suggested something you'd move the goal posts.

It might have been faster to just tell people what you wanted and ask for the confirmation that you were evidently seeking.

 

[justin22885]

FTW.

Your OP was simple: And each time somebody suggested something you'd move the goal posts.

It might have been faster to just tell people what you wanted and ask for the confirmation that you were evidently seeking.

post #3 i said i wasnt interested in ARs, that should be the end of it instead of 20 more posts trying to convince me of it as if its some kind of crime to not want an AR on this forum

 

[Nowhere Man]

Look at Savage. The models with the Accutrigger and Accustock are extremely accurate.

My 10PC would easily shoot 1moa with most ammo. My 12 F T/R shoots 1/2 moa's all day long.

 

[justin22885]

i like savage and savage 10s are my preference for modern bolt actions (i usually prefer milsurps) but im looking specificially for a military semi auto

 

[d2wing]

Deleted

 

[dvdcrr]

I have to give the fnar credit. Its reported accuracy makes it much more interesting. Theres something to be said for a dog that really hunts no matter what breed.

 

[justin22885]

Some kids are not looking for good advice, they are looking for fantasy advice. All they know is from video games and the internet.

kids? really? ive owned M1As, PTR91s, built two AKs from parts, and have even designed a few of my own rifles, and youre going to criticize me, talk down and patronize me because i dont want an AR?

since i have already said i want no ARs, i do not want any bolt actions, i dont want any non-military semi automatics, and have stated already my primary interests are with the FAL, yugo M77 and the HK/PTR rifles, i see no reason why i should entertain any advice thats opposite of what im looking for

 

[MachIVshooter]

since i have already said i want no ARs, i do not want any bolt actions, i dont want any non-military semi automatics, and have stated already my primary interests are with the FAL, yugo M77 and the HK/PTR rifles, i see no reason why i should entertain any advice thats opposite of what im looking for

Because none of those fit the stated criteria in your OP (<$1k, <2 MOA)

You are basically limited to AR and FNAR for that kind of accuracy in that price range. If you just want a G3, FAL or M77, then for goodness sake, buy one. Just understand that you will be very lucky to end up with a <2 MOA rifle without spending a pile of scratch accurizing it after purchase.

and have even designed a few of my own rifles

Did you build them? Drawing up a weapon is one thing, actually manufacturing a firearm that works is quite another, and not many people can pull it off. You have not created a successful design unless you've built it and made it work in the real world. I'm telling you as a machinist who has actually built guns from scratch that designing on paper (or in CAD) is just the very beginning, and really not much of an accomplishment, so do not think that slapping together a couple of Kalashnikovs and sketching out some ideas for other firearms will somehow command respect from those of us who have been in this game for awhile.

 

[justin22885]

actually, the M77 and the PTR91 are sub-$1000 rifles, even seen some FALs for around that price.. so if you think the AR-10 is the only sub $1000 .308 rifle, then you must have your AR goggles on and cant see the other three i've just mentioned

so for the last time, i dont want an AR, i dont like ARs, i never liked ARs and i will probably NEVER like ARs.. so dont whine and complain when i ignore people suggesting i get the AR, or asking me why i dont like them

 

[MachIVshooter]

actually, the M77 and the PTR91 are sub-$1000 rifles, even seen some FALs for around that price.. so if you think the AR-10 is the only sub $1000 .308 rifle, then you must have your AR goggles on and cant see the other three i've just mentioned

:banghead:

Once again, those are highly unlikely to meet your < 2 MOA criteria in a sub-$1K configuration. What don't you understand about that?

Nobody has said you cannot find .308 battle rifles other than AR for under $1,000. What we are explaining to you (ad nauseum, and it would seem futilely) is that the AR is really the only rifle that offers the performance you want at the price you're willing to pay.

At this point, I am only writing to help others and for posterity. It is quite clear that you do not actually want to listen to anyone who knows what they're talking about, just want pats on the back for "goin' against the grain" and buying something besides an AR in .308. Whatever floats your boat, dude. Just don't be surprised when you get out there and find you can do no better than softball sized groups with your non-AR battle rifle.

 

[d2wing]

Well said Mach4.