justin22885
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let me ask this very simple question.. besides the "centennial" model beretta, does anyone sell a steel framed 92.. even if its just abare frame, heck, even if its just an 80%?
wanting a full size pistol
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http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...g+051004493+Hi-Power+Standard+13+1+9mm+4.625"
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...d/18383/CZ-USA+01150+CZ+75+B+SA+10+1+9mm+4.6"
The 75SA listed is the 10-rd CA version, but the standard ones shouldn't be hard to find.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...d/18383/CZ-USA+01150+CZ+75+B+SA+10+1+9mm+4.6"
The 75SA listed is the 10-rd CA version, but the standard ones shouldn't be hard to find.
justin22885
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i think i'll just stick with the 1911, hard to ignore the customization options and simplicity and ability to make use of any caliber i can acquire.. it truly is a multi tool.. just need to decide if i want the double stack or single
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Zerodefect
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I'd skip double stack 1911's for now. Those are great for open competition, but little else.
Look at:
Colt 1991
Colt 01980RG Railgun
Colt Wiley Clapp Goverment
CZ1911
Dan Wesson Valor (black)
Dan Wesson Specialist (black)
MICHAEL T
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Just get a Colt Commander and search over. Either a standard weight or a Lite weight If you can find one. Both work fine.
Thompsoncustom
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I've owned a handful of cz's, a hi power, and 1911 all in 9mm.
As far as fell in the hand they are all a little different but all really good.
I would say trigger wise the tuned 1911 would take first place followed by the CZ a close second. The hi power is quite a ways behind them but still a good shooter.
1911 or Cz 75 or sp-01 and you won't be disappointed. In 9mm I would get the CZ in 45 the 1911.
As far as fell in the hand they are all a little different but all really good.
I would say trigger wise the tuned 1911 would take first place followed by the CZ a close second. The hi power is quite a ways behind them but still a good shooter.
1911 or Cz 75 or sp-01 and you won't be disappointed. In 9mm I would get the CZ in 45 the 1911.
justin22885
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at some point ill be getting everything mentioned on here.. the CZ-75, the hi power, the 1911, and probably one of the polymer pistols at some point so its mostly just a matter of which one to get first.. downside to the 1911s though is the cost.. some of the RIA are somewhat decent and affordable but i think id want something better than that and i intend to build it myself from parts when that time comes
so in the mean time instead of getting a low end 1911 if i have plans to get a better one later when i have more tools, i'll be considering the CZ-75 or hi power first but i still have some unanswered questions about the hi power
first of all i wont be able to afford a brand new hi power right now... so whats the opinion on buying a surplus FN hi power pistol and rebuilding it?.. are these mostly shot out, ridden hard, lots of wear or are they still in decent mechanical shape thats going to last forever.. i know lately it seems some of the older production of some of these pistols have been better than some of the newer production runs, im not familiar enough with hi powers to know
second question about the hi powers is can they handle modern +P ammunition?
so in the mean time instead of getting a low end 1911 if i have plans to get a better one later when i have more tools, i'll be considering the CZ-75 or hi power first but i still have some unanswered questions about the hi power
first of all i wont be able to afford a brand new hi power right now... so whats the opinion on buying a surplus FN hi power pistol and rebuilding it?.. are these mostly shot out, ridden hard, lots of wear or are they still in decent mechanical shape thats going to last forever.. i know lately it seems some of the older production of some of these pistols have been better than some of the newer production runs, im not familiar enough with hi powers to know
second question about the hi powers is can they handle modern +P ammunition?
Thompsoncustom
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Good call on saving money and getting a better quality 1911.
I wouldn't say the surplus hi power are shot out and should be mechanically sound. The finish I've seen on most of them are pretty rough but that was the biggest down side.
I'm thinking the hi power is Not rated for +p ammo by the factory but I could be wrong. Tho it will run just fine with +p ammo.
I wouldn't say the surplus hi power are shot out and should be mechanically sound. The finish I've seen on most of them are pretty rough but that was the biggest down side.
I'm thinking the hi power is Not rated for +p ammo by the factory but I could be wrong. Tho it will run just fine with +p ammo.
justin22885
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if i got a surplus hi power it would be with the intention of doing a complete rebuild/refinish.. clean up, refinish each part, replace springs and other small parts as needed, new grips, and probably modern sights.. make it like a brand new pistol
CoalTrain49
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Sig P 220 accuracy issues
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IME, the Hi-Power (mine is a cast frame Mk III which is recommended if you want to shoot a lot of +p) and CZ 75/85 are both great, great guns in hand. I think my CZs will out-shoot the Hi-Power just a bit, and have a little better trigger (the triggers are different, my H-P happens to have an unusually good one for H-P), but the H-P is a great gun, very enjoyable to operate and shoot. Between the 75B and 85 Combat, I'd get the 85 Combat, no question.
Comparable sizes of the CZs, the H-P, and some others can be seen below.
Comparable sizes of the CZs, the H-P, and some others can be seen below.
Tallball
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I have five full-sized service style 9mm pistols, several of which have been mentioned. I like all of them and would recommend any/all of them. Which is best for you would pretty much come down to hand size/shape and personal preference.
All of these 9mm pistols are reliable and accurate (in my personal experience). They are all suitable as range toys or for HD. All of them are large/heavy enough to have low felt recoil - for me, YMMV. I think it would take a lot of shooting to wear any of them out.
Browning High Power - It feels good in my very large hand. My friend with tiny hands can also shoot it. Pointing it seems very natural. Mine is an older model with small service sights. They are single action. The trigger is okay.
Beretta 92 - Bigger than the BHP. Mine has nice big adjustable sights. The alloy frame makes it feel more bulky than heavy, to me anyway. I like the feel of the smooth DA trigger. The SA trigger is good.
Tokarev in 9mm - Mine is Chinese. It looks like dogs tried to eat it. The inside shows obvious wear. It has been shot a LOT. But it functions perfectly. The sights are better than I would have expected. It is single action. The SA trigger feels just fine. I would fit most people's hands just fine. I am pretty sure my tiny-handed friend shot it, too.
Star Super B - Big single action service pistol that looks a lot like a 1911, but it lacks a grip safety and uses the High Power locking system. It has decent sights, for fixed sights. The single action trigger is pretty good. It feels like a 1911 in my large hands, which means it fits them well. My ten-year-old daughter has hands the size of an average-sized woman, but weaker. She got bored with 32's the other day at the range, and shot my FiL's Super B with no problem.
CZ-75 - It feels nice and big in my hand. The sights are good. The SA and DA triggers are very good. For me the felt recoil is the softest of a soft bunch. I also find it to be the most accurate. It is my favorite 9mm pistol, and one of my very favorite handguns.
I like all of these. All of them can be had, in some form or other, for modest prices. My personal preference would be to purchase two, or even three, functional and fun pistols for the price of a fancier one, but not everyone feels that way.
I don't know if all of the Toks are as good as mine. I see mine as a perfect "beater". It would be fun and cheap first big 9mm. Doubtless you could get a nice one for less than $300 every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
The FEG High Power clones have an excellent reputation. In my experience, police surplus pistols are carried a lot and shot just a little. Something like that for $400 or so would be a good deal on a classic pistol, IMHO.
The Berettas are probably a little costlier. The Taurus clones (made in the old Beretta factory, IIRC) have a good reputation. They are cheap. You could get a used or surplus one for $300 easily, last time I saw.
A CZ is a little pricier. The Tanfoglios are a bit less. Brand-new Turkish clones were going for $350-ish last time I saw. They have a good reputation.
If those surplus Super B's are still out there, they are awfully hard to beat price-wise. My FiL and I got them for under $250 OTD. Mine had barely been shot and his was LNIB.
All of these 9mm pistols are reliable and accurate (in my personal experience). They are all suitable as range toys or for HD. All of them are large/heavy enough to have low felt recoil - for me, YMMV. I think it would take a lot of shooting to wear any of them out.
Browning High Power - It feels good in my very large hand. My friend with tiny hands can also shoot it. Pointing it seems very natural. Mine is an older model with small service sights. They are single action. The trigger is okay.
Beretta 92 - Bigger than the BHP. Mine has nice big adjustable sights. The alloy frame makes it feel more bulky than heavy, to me anyway. I like the feel of the smooth DA trigger. The SA trigger is good.
Tokarev in 9mm - Mine is Chinese. It looks like dogs tried to eat it. The inside shows obvious wear. It has been shot a LOT. But it functions perfectly. The sights are better than I would have expected. It is single action. The SA trigger feels just fine. I would fit most people's hands just fine. I am pretty sure my tiny-handed friend shot it, too.
Star Super B - Big single action service pistol that looks a lot like a 1911, but it lacks a grip safety and uses the High Power locking system. It has decent sights, for fixed sights. The single action trigger is pretty good. It feels like a 1911 in my large hands, which means it fits them well. My ten-year-old daughter has hands the size of an average-sized woman, but weaker. She got bored with 32's the other day at the range, and shot my FiL's Super B with no problem.
CZ-75 - It feels nice and big in my hand. The sights are good. The SA and DA triggers are very good. For me the felt recoil is the softest of a soft bunch. I also find it to be the most accurate. It is my favorite 9mm pistol, and one of my very favorite handguns.
I like all of these. All of them can be had, in some form or other, for modest prices. My personal preference would be to purchase two, or even three, functional and fun pistols for the price of a fancier one, but not everyone feels that way.
I don't know if all of the Toks are as good as mine. I see mine as a perfect "beater". It would be fun and cheap first big 9mm. Doubtless you could get a nice one for less than $300 every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
The FEG High Power clones have an excellent reputation. In my experience, police surplus pistols are carried a lot and shot just a little. Something like that for $400 or so would be a good deal on a classic pistol, IMHO.
The Berettas are probably a little costlier. The Taurus clones (made in the old Beretta factory, IIRC) have a good reputation. They are cheap. You could get a used or surplus one for $300 easily, last time I saw.
A CZ is a little pricier. The Tanfoglios are a bit less. Brand-new Turkish clones were going for $350-ish last time I saw. They have a good reputation.
If those surplus Super B's are still out there, they are awfully hard to beat price-wise. My FiL and I got them for under $250 OTD. Mine had barely been shot and his was LNIB.
justin22885
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is 13 rounds really the maximum for a flush fitting hi power mag?
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A steyr M9 used to be one of my favorite if not my favorite handgun. Great under rated gun. The one that seemingly had eclipsed it though is the HK VP9. If you are looking at fullsize polymer 9x19s the VP9 should be in the running. In terms of durability. You will have to spend so much money on ammo to wear our something like the VP9 that the price of a replacement gun would be a drop in the bucket. Honestly you'd likely be happy with any of the guns you mentioned a lot of which is "better" is just personal preference.
bannockburn
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justin22885
If you're thinking about a full size or Commander size 1911 maybe consider one in .38 Super. Lots of versatility if you handload and can easily be converted to 9mm. for cheaper practice time.
If you're thinking about a full size or Commander size 1911 maybe consider one in .38 Super. Lots of versatility if you handload and can easily be converted to 9mm. for cheaper practice time.
No, 15 rounders fit flush as well. Some good info here:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/mec-gar 9mm Hi Power magazines 13 vs 15 shot.htm
You could, but there's often no need to do so unless you just want a new-looking gun. Here's my 1994 model MkIII that I bought as Israeli surplus (not necessarily military) from Mach 1 Arsenal for $480 plus shipping and transfer. Internally it is essentially like new. As with many such guns, looks to have been carried but not shot much at all. It has functioned flawlessly with the various brands of ammo that I've fed it.
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justin22885
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are the MKIIIs still made in belgium?.. they seem identical to the israel ones and if thats the case then id rather just save up and get a brand new one at a later date if theyre the same pistols
also.. wth is this?
also.. wth is this?
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Yes, still made in Belgium and assembled in Portugal, just as they were long prior to being marked as such.are the MKIIIs still made in belgium?.. they seem identical to the israel ones and if thats the case then id rather just save up and get a brand new one at a later date if theyre the same pistols
also.. wth is this?
That image is probably a drawing, or if it does exist as a functional gun, a one-off. It's been discussed here, among other places: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=312859
The member "Burgs" who suggested it's a drawing is pretty knowledgable on HPs. If it looked like anything real he'd probably have recognized it.
justin22885
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well, the 1911 would cost too much for a decent one, or too much in parts to build one at this time, so its eliminated... if the regular hi powers arent really suited to +P and the new ones are still made exactly as the surplus MKIIIs, then i should just save up and buy one of those later and just have a new one... so thats eliminated from my decision
this just leaves me with the CZ-75 SP-01 and the full size tangfoglio... why do the tangfoglios and cz-97s have such diminished magazine capacity for 45acp.. only 10 rounds?.. a doublestack 1911 holds 13, a glock 21 of the same grip length also holds 13
anyway.. screw it, what i wanted to do with the 1911 AND what i wanted to do with a CZ-75 or hi power can all be done with a single pistol.. costing me about $500 vs close to $2000 for the other two.. so im just going to go with the eaa witness full size probably in 38 super, but im eventually going to pick up the other two size slides and more barrels so i can basically use this ONE pistol that i will finely tune to be my new go-to all purpose duty/combat type of pistol... and as far as ammo shortages, TEOTWAWKI, i'll be able to use my same pistol with any caliber thats cheapest, and available.. i think i'll probably even make up my own case for it to hold the pistol, two extra slides, a few extra barrels and the magazines (at least two for each slide)
so eaa witness full size .38 super.. final decision
this just leaves me with the CZ-75 SP-01 and the full size tangfoglio... why do the tangfoglios and cz-97s have such diminished magazine capacity for 45acp.. only 10 rounds?.. a doublestack 1911 holds 13, a glock 21 of the same grip length also holds 13
anyway.. screw it, what i wanted to do with the 1911 AND what i wanted to do with a CZ-75 or hi power can all be done with a single pistol.. costing me about $500 vs close to $2000 for the other two.. so im just going to go with the eaa witness full size probably in 38 super, but im eventually going to pick up the other two size slides and more barrels so i can basically use this ONE pistol that i will finely tune to be my new go-to all purpose duty/combat type of pistol... and as far as ammo shortages, TEOTWAWKI, i'll be able to use my same pistol with any caliber thats cheapest, and available.. i think i'll probably even make up my own case for it to hold the pistol, two extra slides, a few extra barrels and the magazines (at least two for each slide)
so eaa witness full size .38 super.. final decision
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Most of the "surplus" HPs are forged frame because they're mostly the Mk I and Mk II models. It's not that the forged frame HPs aren't suited to +p ammo. It's just that you probably shouldn't plan to shoot thousands of rounds of +p through them. Cast frames started in ~'93, so if you get a surplus or used gun from the past 20 years, you'll almost certainly get a cast frame that was designed to support the .40 Caliber, and plenty strong for a heavy diet of 9mm +p.
If you want to know about Hi Powers, go here:http://hipowersandhandguns.com/index.html
If you want to know about Hi Powers, go here:http://hipowersandhandguns.com/index.html
justin22885
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aah.. but i want something that can handle tens of thousands of rounds of +P ammo.. guess its another good reason to go for the EAA witness.. its "over built" to handle things like 10mm, so itll handle anything a 9mm or 38 super can throw at it and then some
justin22885
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yeah.. that is true.. about $500 for one of their "conversion kits" granted.. id only need 3 slides and a bunch of barrels.. i can get those two extra slides on top of two extra frames with the two more barrels for the same price.. which i should probably do just for the extra spare parts
but if youre suggesting i just get a seperate 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, 45acp, 38 super then this is actually going to end up costing more because you cant get 38 super and 9mm in the same pistol if i say got a CZ-75 for 9mm, and you cant exactly convert a 45acp to 10mm or 38 super without a whole new slide assembly as well.. so the cheapest, and easiest way of doing it would be basically the one frame, three slides, and 5-6 barrels at about $200 each
but yeah.. i may just buy three different witness pistols in 38 super, 45acp and 10mm and then vacuum seal the other two frames in oil and put them in storage for spares if something breaks.. i have large hands, so i doubt the grip is going to bother me any and i'll end up with my own personal modular pistol system
but if youre suggesting i just get a seperate 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, 45acp, 38 super then this is actually going to end up costing more because you cant get 38 super and 9mm in the same pistol if i say got a CZ-75 for 9mm, and you cant exactly convert a 45acp to 10mm or 38 super without a whole new slide assembly as well.. so the cheapest, and easiest way of doing it would be basically the one frame, three slides, and 5-6 barrels at about $200 each
but yeah.. i may just buy three different witness pistols in 38 super, 45acp and 10mm and then vacuum seal the other two frames in oil and put them in storage for spares if something breaks.. i have large hands, so i doubt the grip is going to bother me any and i'll end up with my own personal modular pistol system
WVsig
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That IMHO looks like crap. Thank god it does not actually exist.
Enjoy that Witness and their customer service there is a decent chance you are going to need it IMHO vs the other manufacturers you are considering. I would take a surplus BHP or a CZ over the Witness every time it was offered and twice on Sunday.
This is not correct. Many of the surplus BHPs are MKIIIs. You have to pick around and know what you are looking at and what you are looking for.
Thompsoncustom
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WVsig has some good points.
The witness is a good pistol if you get a good one but there have been a lot of horror stories from people that haven't. The biggest problems with the witness is probably the importer EAA and there customer service.
The CZ 75 platform was never designed for the 10mm and I would say the 10mm and 45acp witness are the ones that have the most problems with slides and frames cracking. I believe they added some relief cuts to the newer hunter frames to combat the cracking problems but I don't think it was ever resolved 100% were I have never heard of the cz 75 having any cracking issues.
The witness is a good pistol if you get a good one but there have been a lot of horror stories from people that haven't. The biggest problems with the witness is probably the importer EAA and there customer service.
The CZ 75 platform was never designed for the 10mm and I would say the 10mm and 45acp witness are the ones that have the most problems with slides and frames cracking. I believe they added some relief cuts to the newer hunter frames to combat the cracking problems but I don't think it was ever resolved 100% were I have never heard of the cz 75 having any cracking issues.
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