wanting a full size pistol

[barnbwt]

I was fooled; there's a ton of modern clones of the Hi Power, I assumed one of them had rails by this point. Hideous or not, it's kind of interesting there aren't any.

"i want something that can handle tens of thousands of rounds of +P ammo"
Tokarev. Just sayin'. It's probably the most stupidly-overbuilt handgun there is, that isn't an Auto-mag monstrosity.

Anyone know how well the Beretta PX4's handle hot loads? I've never heard anything about folks experimenting with those, but the action seems quite a bit beefier in terms of not having delicate links, frames, or cam surfaces. If momentum/slide battering issues can be overcome, it'd be interesting to see if it can hold back magnum power levels.

Justin22885, a big part of adapting any of these guns into a hot cartridge is inertia; most service guns are developed around 'service caliber' power levels, and pushing beyond them simply requires engineering changes for proper function. For instance; a 1911's lugs are plenty strong for hot Rowland chamberings, but nothing in the gun is massive enough to slow the cycle down enough to prevent frame peening, so a large muzzle brake was required. Perhaps playing with the camming or other geometry of the design would work as well, but that's a lot tougher than putting a muzzle device on or making the slide beefier.

It's akin to expecting a Walther PP to handle a Stetchkin's ammunition without getting a lot bigger. Recoil operation only 'hides' some of the cartridge energy from the gun, so pushing past the design limits is just as troublesome as it is for blowbacks, only different parts start letting go first.

TCB

 

[justin22885]

yeah, i do like tokarevs, i should be adding a polish made tokarev to my collection soon enough.. not just yet though

is a 1911 really THAT much better for an all purpose pistol that can shoot all these different cartridges?

 

[justin22885]

That IMHO looks like crap. Thank god it does not actually exist.

Enjoy that Witness and their customer service there is a decent chance you are going to need it IMHO vs the other manufacturers you are considering. I would take a surplus BHP or a CZ over the Witness every time it was offered and twice on Sunday.



This is not correct. Many of the surplus BHPs are MKIIIs. You have to pick around and know what you are looking at and what you are looking for.

are you against 1911s with rails too?

 

[DLam]

No one has mentioned this gem of a full sized 9mm... the S&W 5906.

 

[benzy2]

Just buy a 10mm. You'll get all the +P power you want, can download it to be soft if you want, and you won't need multiple calibers and barrels and slides. It will handle the pressure/velocity/energy levels you're looking to get far easier than a 9mm based frame will handle. I'd rather have too much frame/pistol design and not need it than try to push the envelope of a deisgn with hot loads not intended to be used by the "tens of thousands".

 

[I6turbo]

That IMHO looks like crap. Thank god it does not actually exist.

Enjoy that Witness and their customer service there is a decent chance you are going to need it IMHO vs the other manufacturers you are considering. I would take a surplus BHP or a CZ over the Witness every time it was offered and twice on Sunday.



This is not correct. Many of the surplus BHPs are MKIIIs. You have to pick around and know what you are looking at and what you are looking for.

What I wrote is correct. Most of the surplus Hi Powers are Mk Is and Mk IIs, and have been so for the past many months. I've been watching the big importers' offerings (Mach 1 Arsenal and Coles/cdisales, for example) for a year or so now and not many are Mk IIIs.

If you go to gunbroker Completed auctions, search for Hi Power Surplus you'll see what Mach 1 was offering. If you just search Hi Power used and locate the cdisales offerings, you'll see theirs. Between the two you can get a feel for the ratio. These are two very big surplus Hi Power importers/sellers, and most of what's been on GB for the past while has been from them, and most have been Mk I and Mk II, many of the ones from Coles/cdisales were refinished. If you were able to go back a year or so you'd see the same thing in terms of ratio.

That doesn't mean that there aren't "many" Mk IIIs like you said, but Mk IIIs don't make up "most" of the surplus offerings.

 

[WVsig]

What I wrote is correct. Most of the surplus Hi Powers are Mk Is and Mk IIs, and have been so for the past many months. I've been watching the big importers' offerings (Mach 1 Arsenal and Coles/cdisales, for example) for a year or so now and not many are Mk IIIs.

If you go to gunbroker Completed auctions, search for Hi Power Surplus you'll see what Mach 1 was offering. If you just search Hi Power used and locate the cdisales offerings, you'll see theirs. Between the two you can get a feel for the ratio. These are two very big surplus Hi Power importers/sellers, and most of what's been on GB for the past while has been from them, and most have been Mk I and Mk II, many of the ones from Coles/cdisales were refinished. If you were able to go back a year or so you'd see the same thing in terms of ratio.

That doesn't mean that there aren't "many" Mk IIIs like you said, but Mk IIIs don't make up "most" of the surplus offerings.

If you look back at the history of these BHP surplus guns you will find that Mach 1 is a recent entry. They really started to bring them in somewhere is 2014. Coles on the other hand has been doing this for a lot longer.

These guns come in batches. Yes right now there are more MKI and MKIIs. At other times there are more MKIIIs. The reality is that the recent ones are not as nice and require refinishing. These guns from past years did not and IIRC there were many more MKIIIs. Another importer who brought a lot in back in the day was PW Arms.

Also the MKII vs MKIII frame debate only applicable if you are going to shoot a ton of +P, we are talking about more money in +P ammo then the $450 you will spend on a surplus BHP. If you can afford to shoot 10,000 round of +P ammo you can afford to get more than one gun.

Most people I would say 99.99% of BHP owners or pistol owners in general are not going to shoot any amount of +P that will destroy the rails and frame on any BHP. This is my experience over the years having shot these pistols extensively. The number one thing about shooting +P in a BHP is to change the recoil spring often. IMHO that is the most important factor!

 

[WVsig]

are you against 1911s with rails too?

Yes.

 

[Candyman87]

Love my PPQ M2 in 9mm, 1500 rounds through it and only one failure to feed... turns out the round was WAY out of spec and I didn't notice it when loading.

Tap, rack, reassess and I was back to shooting without failures.

That being said, my girlfriend's M9A1 and my PPQ are hand-in-hand my two favorite full size guns to shoot. Have you looked at the 92 series?

 

[justin22885]

Yes.

i see absolutely nothing wrong with the modernization of older handguns to bring them into the 21st century.. double stack mags and rails are basically necessary at this point and for the purpose of what i use handguns for i prefer something i can actually put a light on.. especially for home defense scenarios

 

[WVsig]

i see absolutely nothing wrong with the modernization of older handguns to bring them into the 21st century.. double stack mags and rails are basically necessary at this point and for the purpose of what i use handguns for i prefer something i can actually put a light on.. especially for home defense scenarios

I personally have no need for a weapon light. I don't kick down doors for a living. I like double stacks but for my uses honestly I could probably still get away with a sub revolver. I am proficient in multiple holds involving a hand held light which for IMHO for home defense is much more valuable then a rail mounted light. I would estimate that 80% of the people I see using a light are using it improperly. I see it all the time at the range when I see people with lights on their handguns.

It is that that I will not buy a gun with a rail. I own many but I think that they are overrated.

As for putting them on older guns I believe they destroy the aesthetics of guns like the BHP and 1911. If you like them go for it your $$$ your gun but you will never convince me that they look good or are a necessity.

 

[justin22885]

yeah, id rather have the other hand free and put the flashlight on the pistol, makes no sense to take up your other hand completely to hold a light that could just as easily be mounted to the handgun

 

[WVsig]

yeah, id rather have the other hand free and put the flashlight on the pistol, makes no sense to take up your other hand completely to hold a light that could just as easily be mounted to the handgun

Makes no sense to me to point the muzzle at everything I want to illuminate.

 

[AK103K]

Makes no sense to me to point the muzzle at everything I want to illuminate.

If you use the light properly, you dont have to.

Having a second, hand held light is a plus though, and a good idea.

 

[WVsig]

If you use the light properly, you dont have to.

Having a second, hand held light is a plus though, and a good idea.

That was said in a tongue and cheek fashion because like I said earlier most people using them deploy them improperly. Most people simply do not have the training to use it properly.

Decent quick video and I agree with pretty much everything he is saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K33B6B6-O1I

 

[justin22885]

just kind of off topic.. but im getting REALLY sick and tired of firearm manufacturers of late.. theres been a lot of corner cutting and other cost saving moves that seem to be leaving gun owners with cheaper made, and in my opinion lower quality products.. besides the 1911 and the CZ-75, does anyone even make a steel framed pistol?.. the few metal frames stuff that exists have went over to aluminum because its cheaper.. but aluminum also wears faster, id rather have a plastic frame pistol with steel inserts than aluminum

and plastic?.. screw plastic, so you save a few ounces on weight?.. whoopdie do, if its a pocket gun where a few ounces actually matter, great, fantastic, but for a full size duty/range/military/TEOTWAWKI/go-to pistol, id rather have something more durable.. something that can be burned, shot, heck whenever i see steel framed pistols suffer a double charge, it ruins the mag, maybe destroys the extractor but they for the most part can be repaired.. double charge in a pastic gun you usually end up with your hand torn up and the gun totaled..

you cant convince me they will last as long as steel but still theyre pushed off on us as being "lightweight" "wont corrode".. but as states a few extra pounds and cleaning once in a blue moon its not even an issue, i feel theyre being pushed on us because they can be mass produced for pennies on the dollar while the gun manufacturers make millions more

honestly.. i dont want to support any of the major gun manufacturers anymore

anyway.. end rant

 

[justin22885]

and no.. rails arent absolutely necessary.. i have no issues with the aesthetics, i kind of prefer them but you dont need a rail to add a flashlight to a pistol.. there are alternative methods

 

[justin22885]

what if i just went ahead with my 1911 build project i was planning on a TM recon frame.. then i could just get a 1911 GI parts kit i could fit and refinish to have a functioning pistol within my price range, and then be able to take my time and save up for better components to upgrade the frame assembly, plus get the additional slides and barrels for the different calibers?

 

[astocks2622]

As I posted elsewhere, the primary issue with the Eaa/Tanfoglio guns were with the 10mm Witness steel pistols that had the rounded or scalloped slides. they removed material to try to lighten the gun, which was fine for all but the 10mm... they tended to crack right behind the ejection port where the scallops started. mine did. my experience with EAA CS was great. they replaced the slide with a non scalloped one, installed adjustable sights & an ambi safety, & threw in an extra mag. I did pay shipping there, but they paid for the return.
the EAA's without the scallops don't seen to have the cracking issue. For what you're looking for, I would go with the Witness Match in 10mm. I have the Stock 1 in 10mm & love it.

 

[justin22885]

As I posted elsewhere, the primary issue with the Eaa/Tanfoglio guns were with the 10mm Witness steel pistols that had the rounded or scalloped slides. they removed material to try to lighten the gun, which was fine for all but the 10mm... they tended to crack right behind the ejection port where the scallops started. mine did. my experience with EAA CS was great. they replaced the slide with a non scalloped one, installed adjustable sights & an ambi safety, & threw in an extra mag. I did pay shipping there, but they paid for the return.
the EAA's without the scallops don't seen to have the cracking issue. For what you're looking for, I would go with the Witness Match in 10mm. I have the Stock 1 in 10mm & love it.

well, i have no interests in 10mm but i do want a 38 super.. however, when i do get a 10mm slide to add to the multi-caliber collection that will be this pistol, i'll be sure to get non-scalloped

 

[justin22885]

do you guys think that for shortages, TEOTWAWKI, disaster scenarios, or any other unknown that using the 1911 as a multi-caliber platform would be better given the much wider availability of the parts and components? or should i stick with the EAA witness as its also a solid platform, stuff can still be sourced online and it offers a higher mag capacity?, i'll be getting both pistols at some point but trying to decide which one i should focus on making into a multi caliber platform

looking at the hi power, i notice its only 5 inches tall where the CZ-75 is 5.4 inches tall, in fact the hi power seems to have a CZ-75 compact length grip with a cz-75 fullsize length barrel.. found some base pads for the hi power that extends the capacity out to 17 rounds while the overall height of the pistol remains no longer than a CZ-75 full size..

so while either the 1911 of witness becomes my multi-caliber platform (at the very least i will still get the witness in 38 super) i will also definitely be getting a hi power as a dedicated 9 mil and 30 luger pistol.. i can honestly see myself becoming a big fan of the hi power

 

[SC Shooter]

Go with a good quality 1911. It's simply a beautiful weapon on many levels.

 

[justin22885]

still trying to list the tradeoffs and determine which tradeoffs are the best

does anyone know the actual frame width of the EAA witness?

 

[Thompsoncustom]

Back in the day the witness came in two frame sizes small and large. Your 9mm and 40 where small and the 10mm and 45 were large I believe.

At some point I believe they stopped making or stopped importing the small framed version and switched everything over to the large frame design. So I'm nothing sure of the frame width but I bet it's really close to the CZ 97.

 

[Zerodefect]

Multicaliber options for a 1911 is a no go. Just get a second pistol for whatever other caliber you want. If you're worried about .45 and 9mm ammo scarcity, add a Glock 23 to your collection.

I stock pile .45 and .40. But I do drop a .357SIG barrel into my Glock 23 from time to time. For the fun of it though.