Wanye is out of his mind

[Alaska444]

Here is a basic debate structure. Remember, we are not trying to convince ourselves, but instead, we are trying to influence the audience which in this case is the American public. Many are rightfully scared of gun violence, so are most of us that is why we carry ourselves for our own self protection.

Unfortunately, most folks don't want to take responsibility for their own protection or provision in our new American culture. We have a very winnable argument for increased school security and expanded CCW provisions to include school grounds like Utah. However, we have to include these folks in OUR conversation and deflect Obama's conversation. For these folks, the NRA did not accomplish that. These two factors are easily defensible and relevant:

How to Frame a Debate

Choose a frame for your debate that is both relevant to the audience and easily defensible. Some audiences may prefer logic over emotion, or be more concerned with individual issues than community ones. Learn whatever you can about the audience and your opponent before the debate, and let that knowledge guide your argument.

Read more: How to Frame a Debate | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_12188594_frame-debate.html#ixzz2Fw6obVxx

 

[David White]

I keep hearing the the "vast majority" of gun owners support common sense gun control. Some media outlets claim as much as 80% support common sense gun control.
I am on the boards for quite a few different firearms forums and I have yet to come across ANY of the 80% that support ANY new gun legislation.
Can anyone please tell me where these numbers are coming from? Is this a false report (from the media) or have some of our ranks flipped and gone over to the dark side?
All my friends and family as well as I, as 100% against ANY new form (or revival of older forms) of gun control.
The media wants a full on attack on our 2A rights and it looks like they have pulled out all the stops to do it. I don't know how some of you feel but I'm digging my heels in and saying "enough is enough".

 

[Warp]

I keep hearing the the "vast majority" of gun owners support common sense gun control. Some media outlets claim as much as 80% support common sense gun control.
I am on the boards for quite a few different firearms forums and I have yet to come across ANY of the 80% that support ANY new gun legislation.
Can anyone please tell me where these numbers are coming from? Is this a false report (from the media) or have some of our ranks flipped and gone over to the dark side?
All my friends and family as well as I, as 100% against ANY new form (or revival of older forms) of gun control.
The media wants a full on attack on our 2A rights and it looks like they have pulled out all the stops to do it. I don't know how some of you feel but I'm digging my heels in and saying "enough is enough".

You can do almost as much with a poll as you can with statistics, RE: Make it say whatever the heck you want.

For example: When they quote that 80% number, does that specifically refer to NEW laws? Or just "common sense" gun control in general? Because I'll bet 80% of gun owners are okay with a law that says people convicted of a violent felony cannot have a gun...or that the mentally unstable cannot have a gun

 

[Alaska444]

I keep hearing the the "vast majority" of gun owners support common sense gun control. Some media outlets claim as much as 80% support common sense gun control.
I am on the boards for quite a few different firearms forums and I have yet to come across ANY of the 80% that support ANY new gun legislation.
Can anyone please tell me where these numbers are coming from? Is this a false report (from the media) or have some of our ranks flipped and gone over to the dark side?
All my friends and family as well as I, as 100% against ANY new form (or revival of older forms) of gun control.
The media wants a full on attack on our 2A rights and it looks like they have pulled out all the stops to do it. I don't know how some of you feel but I'm digging my heels in and saying "enough is enough".

Didn't we all know that this was going to be a big part of Obama's second term?

I don't know where they have the 80% figures, but we truly must take the step to properly reframe the question otherwise you may as well just wait to get in line for confiscation of all weapons.

1) Armed guards in all schools is obviously one answer to the issue, but that does not get to the core issue of gun free zones since they could still prohibit CCW on school grounds even with the armed guards. Problem really not addressed by that approach. The data on gun free zones is clear and persuasive. Focussing a big lobbying effort on a national school guard program or whatever it is they want to do misses the point. It is potential unaffordable by many towns and cities and it focusses attention on THE GUN. The focus needs to be on the lack of protection.

2) We already have state experiments with armed teachers through the CCW permit process and it has been without incident to date. With the popularity of CCW around the nation, that is a vehicle we could tether to rescind the gun free zones. It is also cost neutral. That may be enough in itself to truly make the gun free school zones a less likely target.

3) Churches were also a big target of these creeps more than a decade ago. How did they respond? With private, volunteer CCW and LEO security teams. The 2007 Colorado Springs mass shooting attempt was stopped at the shooters point of entry into the building. Since he had over 1000 rounds of ammo, that is a definite success story. So between the success story of Utah with no incidents from CCW teachers/employees and with the success of the Church volunteer armed security teams, we have a great argument that could easily resonate with the general public.

Adding an easily confounded venture into video games dilutes the message even on basically conservative gun forums.

 

[mortablunt]

I've never quite seen eye-to-eye with Wayne. I'll renew my NRA membership for the next 3 years. We're going to need everybody aboard for the coming storm.

 

[gc70]

I am on the boards for quite a few different firearms forums and I have yet to come across ANY of the 80% that support ANY new gun legislation.

Read some of the other threads on this sub-forum. A lot of ideas have been tossed out involving ways to appease the gun control crowd. More well-intentioned ideas have been tossed out that people did not think through before making a proposal and getting responses. And some ideas have been floated by folks who literally said they wouldn't mind certain gun control measures because they would not be personally affected.

 

[gc70]

Adding an easily confounded venture into video games dilutes the message even on basically conservative gun forums.

Maybe the NRA was just confused by the earlier stance of the Second Amendment Foundation and Citizens Committee on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

from the 12/18/2012 Joint SAF/CCRKBA press release:
“Any meaningful discussion on violence would need to include mental health, violent video games, television shows and films, media malpractice that sensationalizes violence and the dangerously false sense of security created by so-called ‘gun-free zones’.”

 

[Alaska444]

Maybe the NRA was just confused by the earlier stance of the Second Amendment Foundation and Citizens Committee on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Thanks for the link gc70, that is where we are, looking to be a participant in the debate and not just side show. I like their emphasis on the gun free zones in addition to the fact that they are calling for a dialogue, not pushing forth with a unilateral solution even before the debate and dialogue have begun.

However, it is an overly broad topic. Violence has many causes. Perhaps better to narrow the focus to one that you can draw conclusions and have existing evidence. Once again, for me that is the issue of school security, gun free zones and expanding CCW rights as in Utah. All of those are definable and defensible. The topic of what causes violence would inevitably lead to a religious discussion which I wouldn't mind at all, but I doubt that the American public would engage in that larger debate.

 

[jconnor]

First post. Hello all!

Can anyone tell me why there is an amnesty international ad at the top of this thread demonizing the nra? An ak47 with a bow on it to bad guys from nra leadership, really?

 

[coloradokevin]

The sad trend I'm seeing is that we're making more convincing arguments around here for keeping our gun rights than the NRA is during nationally televised interviews. I'm sorry, but while Wayne may be a decent CEO, he's not a great public relations guy. We need to get a skilled and gun-educated debater up there on the stage so that our voice will be heard.

There's no reason (aside from pure emotion) to support new gun laws on the basis of this shooting. The need for these bans is not supported by crime data, and the danger to our citizens from guns is also not fully supported in these statistics. Actually, when compared to other causes of untimely death in our country, the danger of guns is grossly overstated.

The TOTAL number of people murdered by guns is very close to the number of people who were killed in speeding related car accidents last year, and far below the number killed by DUI drivers. No one is trying to govern cars to a maximum speed of 65 mph, or attempting to outlaw alcohol again (that failed two generations ago). That's not even to mention the fact that non-gun homicides exceeded criminal homicides with guns, at least the last time I checked.

Wayne needs to sharpen his stance a bit, and polish his arguments. He just doesn't look that great in the interviews I've seen.

 

[WSM MAGNUM]

Originally Posted by WSM MAGNUM View Post
THis guys has to be kidding me...Videogames, movies?

Thats what they are blaming? If they would stop with the fingerpointing and give some REAL idea on how to fend off these horrible issues.

I dont have any moral issues playing video games and watching violent movies...Wanye can kiss my ass


You don`t get it!
It`s young kids minds that are being taught at a young age that violence and killing is acceptable to escape their problems. Society has pushed God away and evil takes over. It`s not only video games... it`s also pornography and other sinful iniquities that is destroying society.
You are essentially helping the anti`s by insulting Wayne and not staying in the NRA.

Alaska444 originally posted;
Sorry, Wayne is not my spokesperson nor am I going to rejoin the NRA. I was a member for one year and after he sold us out on different issues, I said no more. I don't trust him or them and the NRA is responding to this event like buffoons. They certainly are not handling it as a professional PR firm would in any manner.

In any case, the NRA can only make recommendations. It will be up to our lame brain politicians to actually fight this battle, but the NRA is loosing the PR campaign.

On the other hand, video games and all of the other media and what we are teaching our kids is completely against the word of God which you have correctly stated. One of the principles of God's word is that you reap which you sow. Is it any wonder when America sows the seed of violence in our kids daily that we reap a harvest of violence? No, America is not sowing peace and love, or even strength and virtue, but instead the lowest and basest and most vile and wicked abominations are now glorified in public. Yes, America is reaping what it has sown for decades.

Alaska,
sorry you feel that way about the NRA, but I would like to point out one thing. You said; "It will be up to our lame brain politicians to actually fight this battle".

Please don`t ever leave anything up to politicians to resolve. This is why our country is so royally screwed up. We must take back control. We as individuals must resolve our problems. Politicians have assumed to themselves too much power they were never supposed to have. And if we don`t go back to God, this country will not stand.

 

[Fremmer]

And this isn't an issue of "gun violence".
This is an issue of failing to effectively intervene and prevent someone who is obviously mentally ill from harming himself or others. That was a failure by college staff, by psychiatrists, by parents, by friends, by girlfriends...all of whom watched someone progressively become more and more mentally unstable and violent, and all of whom did nothing.

NO NEW GUN CONTROL.

 

[exbrit49]

He did it again

Watched Wayne L with David Gregory yesterday(Sunday) and instead of repairing some of the damage caused by the first official statement he pretty much followed the same tack. He was even foaming at the mouth, no kidding watch the video
Personally I feel let down by the NRA and think that Wayne should not handle any further media communications.
The other side and the media use highly skilled PR people and will utilize every trick they have. If W L continues as our voice....... Well it's pretty easy to see that we will lose big time. We missed a golden opportunity to take part in meaningful dialog. It is now an US vs THEM thanks to WL

 

[we are not amused]

I am rather saddened by the !#$&#! on this site, who attack the very people who are fighting for the 2nd amendment rights we all claim to support.

I realize that many people on this forum are less than firm supporters of the RKBA, attacking your supposed friends and allies is not the way to advance RKBA. It does make some people wonder what your real AGENDA is.

The strongest way to support the gun ban crowd is to attack the NRA and to try and get people to leave it.

It is the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to grassroots lobbying in Washington.

Every person who leaves the NRA, is a win for the Brady anti-gunners. Every attack on the NRA, supports the anti-gunners.

If you support the 2nd Amendment, support the organizations and people who do, instead of mindlessly attacking them! Otherwise you are directly supporting the gun banners.

Perhaps you might like to get up in front of television with an extremely hostile host and do better? Not likely from the ravings and rantings I have read.

Did any of you contact your Senators and Representatives? If not, why not?
At least join some pro-gun organization! Personally the more the better!

You don't like the way the NRA does things! Then get involved in the organization and change it.

Currently, the NRA is our best defense against any new gun restrictions, and if you don't support them, then you are supporting the gun banners.

 

[2ifbyC]

You don't like the way the NRA does things! Then get involved in the organization and change it.

Currently, the NRA is our best defense against any new gun restrictions, and if you don't support them, then you are supporting the gun banners.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Wayne is our man in the arena. If you value your 2A rights, it’s high time that you support him/NRA.

Otherwise, all you may have in the future is your video games, albeit temporarily.

 

[Sam1911]

All right, guys. Seems like every side of this has been explored, debated, reviled, and lauded. If you're on the fence about whether to support the NRA now because you LIKE what Wayne said or to support the NRA now even though you don't like what Wayne said, you've got over 470 posts to read through -- just in this one thread -- to help you decide.