We should give the Indians "their" land back...

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for all those who say "so what if the settlers STOLE the land from the natives, its happened all over the place", then shouldnt you not care when someone steals personal belongings from you? after all, 'it happens all over the world', right?
 
TexasVet has the right take on things. It's the was it was, is and ever shall be.

Live with it or change it. But for happy sake, stop crying about it.

As someone who is part (very little) indian and lives in Oklahoma, let me tell you what I see. "Native American"? That's anyone born in the good old US of A, is it not? I see a small number of indians who are proud of their backgroud, great, I think we all should be. I see a number of them who simply want to live off of hand outs, as many other Americans do. Sorry lot. I see many "blue eyed" tribal members. They have learned that they can get bussiness from the govt.

I see many members of tribal govt filling their own pockets while their "tribal brothers" are clueless. They have learned well, from our own govt. They use their title as a means to rob the coffers of their "govt", who is totally supported by the evil white govt, while they preach.

I can't speak of other areas. But in Oklahoma being "Native American" means three things. The first group is, sadly, the smallest. And I mean very few in number. They are proud of who they are, they work hard, they raise their famlies and ask nothing of others. The second group wants nothing more than to be supported, by anyone. They don't work, they don't raise their families (that's what grandmothers are for) and they have their hand out to both govt's, US and tribal. The third group has learned how to use the system well. Thjey are the "leaders". They steal as much as they can from their own tribes. As I said, this is money supplied by the US govt. (NO tribal govt can make it on "their own" unless they sell out their people to the casino owners)

Please, no comments about how much you "pity" me. I am doing quite well, thank you. You want to change my mind? Fine, change what I know and see every day.

And a little secret for those of you who may not travel in "Native American" circles. They know that all they guff about "stealing our land" is just that, guff. They simply want as much as they can get. All the liberals crying about how "the red man has been treated so badly" is music to their ears. They know that as long as it continues, something free is coming their way.
 
From http://www.dcmilitary.com/navy/tester/7_15/commentary/15893-1.html

From 1778 to 1871, the U.S. government, by Senate ratification, made 350 treaties with Native American tribes. Each Indian tribe was treated as a sovereign state. Many hundreds more treaties were negotiated but never ratified. All the treaties had one thing in common: Every single one was broken. Not one was kept intact, many were broken even before they reached Washington.

As for

And a little secret for those of you who may not travel in "Native American" circles. They know that all they guff about "stealing our land" is just that, guff. They simply want as much as they can get. All the liberals crying about how "the red man has been treated so badly" is music to their ears. They know that as long as it continues, something free is coming their way.

While it may be entertaining to slur "Native Americans" and liberals, it doesn't really change the truth, does it.

Right of conquest I can live with. Lying about motivations pisses me off.

db
 
Hypothetical question:
In 1945, a valuable family heirloom was stolen from your grandfather, who has since passed away. Nobody in your family forgot about the heirloom in the ensuing years. Now, the heirloom is found to be in the possession of somebody else in your community. Just for laffs, the person in possession happens to be the descendant of a ne'er-do-well who was a contemporary of your grandfather's. What would you do? Blow it off because it was "a long time ago?" Blow it off because "they stole it fair and square?" Blow it off because the ne'er-do-well was bigger, stronger, and more ruthless than grandpa? How about if you could document that the heirloom had, in fact, belonged to your family and was stolen? Still willing to just let it go?
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1945? Would almost certainly ask the current owner about it. Might try legal action to retrieve it. Not sure if I'd have a leg to stand on, though.
1845? Not likely.
1745? Now we're getting into some serious grudges.

The Japanese who were relocated during WWII (some of whom are still alive today) who lost much property to say nothing of their freedom have a lot more valid claim to compensation than do the Tribes that were mistreated 200 years ago. That doesn't make what happened to them right.
for all those who say "so what if the settlers STOLE the land from the natives, its happened all over the place", then shouldnt you not care when someone steals personal belongings from you? after all, 'it happens all over the world', right?
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Wrong. If the books are to be balanced, why should they only be balanced back to an arbitrary point? Who gets to decide that arbitrary point?

Granted, this might just be Cordex not wanting to traverse the coast of Britain and Europe saying "I'm sorry that my ancestors raped and pillaged the villages of your ancestors. Here's 1,000 Euros for your trouble"
 
"pisses me off"? I'm really sorry now. :rolleyes:

I really don't care. No, really. I don't.



I know what is said by "Native American" leaders when they look at me when they are saying it. Of course many people have reasons not to want to believe it.
 
Well, maybe there were 30 millions Indians on the continent when the first Europeans arrived, but I doubt it unless you include Mexico, Central and South America.

But everything I have read about Indians in the lower 48 states is that they probably never numbered more than 3 million scattered over a vast, mostly uninhabited area.

The Indian Wars were a 300 year long race war, and the Indians lost. Of course, the Indians got their licks in, but it was not enough to block the obvious outcome. I think many Indians during this time came to realize the outcome was obvious, but they still resisted.

Of course, it did not help the Indian cause early on when they treacherously attacked the earliest and quite friendly English settlers and massacred them in Virginia in the 1600s.

Interesting tib-bit of information concerns the building of the tran-continental railroad in the late 1860s. The Union Pacific Railroad Company had the longest piece of railroad to build, about 500 miles.

Regarding the surveyors employed by the railroad, in 1868 alone this was the fate of some of them:

1. One died of an apparent accidental gun shot wound while sitting in his tent.
2. Ten died of robberies and homicides.
3. Six drowned.
4. One fell off a trestle.
5. 45 were killed by Indians.

It was not always a cake walk for the white folks.

Regarding all those treaties that where drawn up with Indians. Many where not worth the paper they were written on because the Indian signatories had no real authority over their own people, or the land in question.

Also, the cultural difference between Indians and whites were at odds many a time. An interesting book to read on culture and the clash between the Plains Indians and the white man, is S.L.A Marshall's entitled "The Crimson Praire".
 
for all those who say "so what if the settlers STOLE the land from the natives, its happened all over the place", then shouldnt you not care when someone steals personal belongings from you? after all, 'it happens all over the world', right?
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No. That's what RKBA is all about. I have the right to prevent my personal belongings from being stolen by somebody else, and the whole country is bound by the Constitution to enforce the agreed laws against somebody stealing my stuff.

When the rest of my citizen yahoos say I don't have the right to protect my stuff by infringing my RKBA, they're messing with my natural and Constitutional right to defend myself, my family and my stuff.

"Stole it fair and square" refers only to use of superior force that either obliterates or forces capitulation of inhabitants of some area. If you live there and can defend it, it won't be stolen. Simple as that -- just like defending your stuff.

Whoever or whatever country steals land or stuff can only keep it as long as a superior force doesn't take it from them.

An important element of the SIFAS Principle is that "the world" seems to recognize that if the "stealer" can keep whatever they stole for an indefinite but relatively long time, they have rights to it. In law, that's called "adverse possession."

If you own land you're not paying attention to, somebody can squat on it, pay taxes on it, and claim title to it by adverse possession. SIFAS.
 
To me it seems like a problem of logistics. At the time America was being settled, a flood of immigrants was welling up on all the foreign shores in route to populate the "new" land. It was new in that western civilization had not yet applied itself to the un-developed landscape. Settlement was inevitable. Contrast this with the partially nomadic and bartering society of the native inhabitants. The two societies could not functionally co-exist. The native inhabitants had no prowess in banking, real estate, corporations, investment, production, building, zoning, infrastructure etc. You could not overlay the two societies. The only way things could happen was for the native inhabitants to be assimilated. Many chose to fight instead. Even though the assimilation was administered very very poorly, it was inevitable.

As a 1/16 Chocktaw, I have a rich appreciation for Native American heritage. If anyone wants to just give away some land, I'll take it, but I'd think you were crazy.
 
hey, i think that guy owns a really nice house. i think i'll go, beat him up, maybe kill him if he resists, and take over ownership of that house. i'll also force his children to submit to my rule, which is obviously better than the pathetic job their father is doing, i mean, he is an animist, he believes gods are in the trees and rivers and elements, how crazy is that??? plus he doesnt really work, he just lives off the land, what a lazy bastard! my way will be much much better. his family will thank me for it.
 
Hey ... that guy who beat up and in some cases killed the other guy to get his house had kids ... who had kids ... who had kids ... who had kids and so on and so on ... and maybe the house was sold a few times since then but that doesn't really matter. I want that bloody house back. Doesn't matter that I was never the owner, and that the current owner has nothing to do with what his ancestors did, or the former owner's ancestors or whatever - they should be held responsible for what the original thieves did.

*grin*
 
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Its just sad that I have to put up with the crap I do from this prof.
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Well, actually you don't. Possible actions (none of which I advocate) are a person could walk away, document that he is defaming them for ethnic reasons and file a complaint/lawsuit, punch him in the nose, et cetera.


What I do recommend is that you embrace him as a Teensy Weensy Petty Tyrant and spend some time learning about yourself.

As for all the codependant crap that liberal enlightened ones seem to like to shovel anytime they perceive an injustice, I'd suggest if you can't bypass it, then at least try to keep it going in the direction of the pinches tiranitos chiquititos you run into in your life and let them deal with it.

Cordex, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I notice you are from Indiana and I distinctly remember what your ancestors were doing in the 1860's. ;)
 
the mouth that roared
has something to say. There's a reason that THR carries on the banner of TFL. That reason has many faces, the moderators. Apologies are in order to lendringser, Oleg, and to all, whom I may have offended with an off-color comment that is not what THR is about. To those who know what I refer to, I apologize. To those that don't, just know that my amazement at what I said is surpassed only by my amazement of the understanding and acceptance of the moderators. The people who run this forum really are as great as they seem.
 
Make no mistake; I am NOT trying to minimize, condone, or justify what was done to the Indians.

They have suffered lots of injustices at the hands of this coutry.

But it would be a bigger fool to believe that their injuries are to be remedied by just handing them the title to large swaths of this country.
 
Not meaning to offend any of the folks out there who obviously have strong feelings on this issue, but the way it's usually framed is really silly. The proposition put forward by the professor may be serious, or may be intended to generate a discussion. If the latter, it seems to have succeeded.

No one seriously advocates giving the entire American continent back to the decendants of pre-Columbian inhabitants. But two facts remain: One, the Native American population in this country continues to live in a state of siege in a lot of places. The FBI and corrupt "progress"-oriented tribal goon squads have terrorized reservations for years. That's what Pine Ridge was all about. There's a lot the government could do to ease tribal problems that were created by their meddling in the first place. Mostly getting the hell out, probably, but some aid in appropriate community development also.

Two, the US government does have certain treaty and other legal obligations that have not been honored. Doing so would probably upset a lot of local power structures and redistribute some by-now valuable property. However, it's the right thing to do and ought to be done.
 
but cordex, what happened when the original homeowners tried to retaliate? did they have the backing of the law? or were bounties put on their heads, and money paid out for each confirmed kill of the homeowners family/friends?

think about it as if its just happened to you and your family. not generations back. wouldnt you fight for what is rightfully yours? wouldnt your grandchildren and their grandchildren still be upset at the injustices? what kind of reparitions were given the native americans at the time their land was taken? how long did it take before treatises began to be drawn up?
 
Cordex, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I notice you are from Indiana and I distinctly remember what your ancestors were doing in the 1860's.
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I'm not an Indiana native.
Few (if any) of my ancestors lived in Indiana at that point, and many had not yet even come to America.
But what I'm really facinated with is the fact that you distinctly remember what was going on in 1860. *grin* Feels like another episode of "Uncle BS".

Don't get me wrong - I've enjoyed plenty of my own personal sins, but I'd be oblidged if others didn't try to visit the sins of my long-dead ancestors on me. Sven wasn't a saint and neither were any of his sons, but I don't think I deserve to be punished for what they did.
 
The problem with all this is that it tries to assign guilt to people who never did te deed and victim status to people who were not directly victimized.

My ethnicity is Irish/Welsh on my Fathers side and German/Italian on my mothers side.

Luckily they were already over here before WWII or else I would be consumed with guilt at what happened to the Jews.
:rolleyes:

I can only imagine the cruelty perpretrated on my ancestors by the Romans and the English.

Honestly, I have no sympathy for the conquered cultures. We are individuals, we are born into the world as it is and we can move forward or we can try and romanticise the past and draw analogies and try and assign blame, etc.

Do what you want - that is your right. All parties involved are now dead.

I was born in a middle class family - I have no inheritance and no land or anything else except what can get right now.

Maybe I should moan about the wealth my family left in Italy - there is an 800 year old house that is still there that belonged to us.

I did not ask to be born or be born in America, I have been wronged and robbed and holy crap this hurts my head.

The Native Americans were not the first people to be conquered. Not the first people to be decieved and lied to and misled and screwed out of their "birthright".

Just about any white person can claim that they are related to kings and wealthy people at some point. We all have knights and knaves in our family tree.

native americans knew more about honor and respect than any white man in existance.
edit - that includes respect for their fellowman, and respect for the land and its resources
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To make statements like that is to show that you have no objectivity. You have giant rose colored goggles on. Were you there? Did you know all of the Native Americans from back then?

Were Native Americans exempt from or immune to human frailties? Jealousy, treachery, thievery, brutality, arrogance, etc?

Do you really think that the white man had to teach these things to the natives?

These unflattering traits are the birthright of every human of every color on the planet. It has always been this way and it always shall be. Races and cultures just make it easy to team up with people to do unto others before they do unto you.

Mans inhumanity to man. Every race, every culture gets a turn on that ride. Edit: Get over it.
 
I could tell you guys some pretty horrific stories of things the Turks and Germans did to my direct relatives. (As in people my grandmother knew, things she witnessed, not my great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother's mother's friends' cousin... :rolleyes: )

Yet I harbor no ill will towards the Turks nor the Germans.

Are you saying I should?
 
how do you explain there not even being a need for land and game management until such were fully exploited by the settlers?

no i wasnt there, but it was the greed and arrogance of the settlers that led to the mistreatment of the native americans and the theft of their land.
 
And it is through the "greed and arrogance" of the settlers that you are typing on a computer, own guns, probably have a house with heat and (well, guess you don't need A/C in AK!!! :) )

And so on and so forth.

You get my point.

I think it was stated quite well earlier:

Spiff: Do you believe ALL the wrongs committed throughout history should be set right?

Why stop with the Indians???
 
oh great, this must've been what it was like for the zebras when noah was loading up the ark. okay, lets start with aardvarks...

if i had my way, i'd just have all the non-natives removed from alaska. and most of the natives. but thats cause i'm a bigot, remember? :evil:

i'm also selfish so i really dont have an opinion about other wrongs done to other races.
 
You are entitled to your beliefs.

At least you admit that your views are self serving and do not attempt to create some embarassing logical justification for them. I do admire that.
 
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