What does "pro-gun liberal" mean?

[RealGun]

I see Mr V. And Kodiaz describe themselves as pro-gun liberal, and I wonder what they mean, betting that it is far from simple. It might also be misplaced, even schizophrenic. I would think one would need to do more than enjoy guns and want to ward off laws that interfere with that enjoyment.

It also has to be more than rejecting pro-life and Judeo-Christian theocracy or more than the rich versus the poor, the haves and have nots.

I think labels, especially when applied to oneself, make one accountable for the beliefs and actions of others who claim those labels. Liberals are notoriously anti-gun, so I don't get what pro-gun liberal means and bet there would be a better label.

 

[cracked butt]

What does "pro-gun liberal" mean?

Delusional.

 

[Manedwolf]

I see Mr V. And Kodiaz describe themselves as pro-gun liberal, and I wonder what they mean, betting that it is far from simple. It might also be misplaced, even schizophrenic. I would think one would need to do more than enjoy guns and want to ward off laws that interfere with that enjoyment.

It also has to be more than rejecting pro-life and Judeo-Christian theocracy or more than the rich versus the poor, the haves and have nots.

I think labels, especially when applied to oneself, make one accountable for the beliefs and actions of others who claim those labels. Liberals are notoriously anti-gun, so I don't get what pro-gun liberal means and bet there would be a better label.

Nope. You can be pro-gun and liberal, because LIBERAL...think about it. What does the word mean?

According to Webster's: Liberal

1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.

The word has been hijacked just as "conservative" has been hijacked by spend-like-drunken-sailors ballooning-bigger-government sorts.

You're looking for LEFTISTS...which promote a delusional brand of oppression that any real "liberal" hates, too. See, someone who went by the textbook definition of "liberal" would hate gun laws, seeing that they keep a tool of freedom out of the hands of the general population, and only allow authoritarian figures to have them.

Liberals are not leftists. Blissninnys, gungrabbers, Hollywood sorts who call for gun control (despite having armed bodyguards), Sarah Brady...those are all leftists, instead.

 

[TarpleyG]

You can't put a label on me but some can try. In their eyes I am very conservative in some beliefs, very liberal in others, and a very balanced moderate in most. I am neither Republican, Democrat, nor Libertarian if you opt to compare to political party lines. I think a lot of us here are like that, IMHO.

Greg

 

[Third_Rail]

TarpleyG, you mean... free thinkers?

 

[SIOP]

It means the same thing as "compassionate conservative."

 

[Silver Bullet]

I agree with what Manedwolf said. There are a lot of "leftists" labeling themselves as (classic) liberals when in fact they are anything but. I think it would be perfectly natural for a classic liberal to be pro-gun.

I also agree with what TarpleyG said, and I would extrapolate from it to point out that even a real leftist might be pro-gun. Most folks don't fit entirely within a mainstream political stereotype. There would be nothing hypocritical or "schizophrenic" to agree with most but not all points typically associated with a particular political entity.

From an RKBA standpoint (wearing blinders to every other issue), I welcome both the pro-gun liberal and the pro-gun leftist; the more votes and influence we have the better.

 

[benEzra]

I think labels, especially when applied to oneself, make one accountable for the beliefs and actions of others who claim those labels. Liberals are notoriously anti-gun, so I don't get what pro-gun liberal means and bet there would be a better label.

You're conflating liberalism with some of the authoritarian philosophies that have permeated the Democratic Leadership Council in recent years.

Bill Clinton was not particularly liberal; he was a self-avowed centrist communitarian. Google the Communitarian Manifesto to see what I mean (scary stuff). Gun-grabbers come from all over the political spectrum. Sarah Brady is a Republican, you knew that, right?

Barbara Boxer is an example of a left-wing communitarian; William J. Bennett is an example of a right-wing communitarian. Both are anti-gun. Then there are left-wing libertarians (many Pink Pistols might fall into that category, and most gun-owning liberals), centrist libertarians, and right-wing libertarians.

The political spectrum isn't a line; it's more like a two-dimensional graph with one's social views on the left-right spectrum (X axis) and one's views on libertarianism vs. authoritarianism on the Y axis. Support for gun ownership is correlated with the libertarian zone on the graph, not one's position on the left-right spectrum.

 

[Silver Bullet]

The political spectrum isn't a line; it's more like a two-dimensional graph with one's social views on the left-right spectrum (X axis) and one's views on libertarianism vs. authoritarianism on the Y axis. Support for gun ownership is correlated with the libertarian zone on the graph, not one's position on the left-right spectrum.

I might add a third dimension to include economic structure (e.g., capitalism vs. communism).

 

[boofus]

You can be a pro-gun liberal, like Thomas Jefferson or Patrick Henry. But you can't be a pro-gun socialist.

The left is overwhelmingly socialist or marxist.

 

[RealGun]

Using the term "liberal", when meaning something distinctly different than modern usage, is poor communication. In practical terms, I think liberal really means not letting a Constitution stand in your way or using that Constitution selectively to support only the parts you like. That pretty precisely defines ACLU. Those who want to promote an archaic definition of liberal would rather be pedantic than well understood.

 

[MrTuffPaws]

Considering the political climate, anyone that is pro-gun should be considered liberal.

 

[Kodiaz]

What I mean by pro gun liberal.


1. I couldn't care less how many abortions there are.

But if someone says you can't have an abortion then that same someone will say you can't do something else. Conservatives want to tell people what to do.

2. I like being outdoors so I absolutely hate pollution. I am a tree hugger.

Conservatives haven't met a polluter they didn't love. Let's cut down every tree in this national park and cover it with roads.

3. I want the govt. to leave me alone. The only way that will happen is if govt. is as small as possible.

Show me when the self proclaimed conservatives have shrunken govt.

4. I want corporations to leave me alone as well.

Conservatives want corporations to have more rights and freedom than people. Why I don't know.

 

[GoRon]

2. I like being outdoors so I absolutely hate pollution. I am a tree hugger.

Conservatives haven't met a polluter they didn't love. Let's cut down every tree in this national park and cover it with roads.

3. I want the govt. to leave me alone. The only way that will happen is if govt. is as small as possible.

Show me when the self proclaimed conservatives have shrunken govt.

And here lies a typical logical disconnect in modern American liberalism.
2 & 3 are direct contradictions.

4. I want corporations to leave me alone as well.

Except that they must be required to provide health insurance, a living wage and maternity leave right?

1. I couldn't care less how many abortions there are.

But if someone says you can't have an abortion then that same someone will say you can't do something else. Conservatives want to tell people what to do.

Then why would you care if the people put reasonable restrictions on it that reflect the legal and moral climate?

You haven't defined anything except what you aren't. A conservative.

 

[Kodiaz]

Well if a corporation doesn't provide a living wage then I would just have to find some other way of making a living then?

If they don't offer medical I'll have to pay for the doctor. I've done it before.



So I guess your version of small govt. doesn't have national parks.

Mine doesn't have welfare, corporate or otherwise, and a much smaller military.

Heck the Swiss style standing militia would be fine with me. Don't see anyone bothering them.


Feinstein wants to put "reasonable restrictions" on something too.

If you want to abortion your kid go ahead it isn't an of my business. If you don't want to then don't.

Funny how the people put reasonable restrictions on one thing and then they want to put "reasonable restrictions" on something else and then something else until the restrictions aren't so reasonable and everything is covered under them.


You don't need a shotgun with a barrel under 18" son. 1934

Why do you need that machine gun or that silencer be "reasonable" those are dangerous weapons.

Assault weapons aren't needed for hunting "reasonable" people don't have these things.


So Goron how are you a conservative you want the govt. to make laws to restrict a person's personal behavior. Wouldn't putting "reasonable restrictions" on abortion increase the size of govt.?


I have yet to have someone else's abortion have any effect on my life.

 

[Silver Bullet]

3. I want the govt. to leave me alone. The only way that will happen is if govt. is as small as possible.

Show me when the self proclaimed conservatives have shrunken govt.

Tax reduction shrinks government. Tax increases enlarge the government. Which party just reduced taxes, and which party wants to raise them ?

 

[Old Dog]

Quote:
What does "pro-gun liberal" mean?

Delusional.

It's posts such as this that go a long way to foster divisiveness among the ranks of gun-owners. That post is a truly pointless addition to this thread.

Where I grew up, in Michigan, among my family were two major groups, academics (father was a college prof) and auto workers (obviously, the major employers in my region) -- both of these groups could be considered "liberal" in the political sense as they consisted of a voting bloc that ran heavily Democrat. Yet, amazingly enough, gun-ownership was prevalent in both these groups and those in my family tended to support the 2nd Amendment as most here do ... One can support the RKBA to its fullest extent and still be otherwise politically or economically liberal.

Labels are a fact of life these days. I care not whether someone considers themselves a "liberal," "conservative," "libertarian" or "moonie" ... whatever. I just people based on their intellect, passion for life and convictions. If their convictions differ from mine, so be it. As long as they are consistent and display integrity in their life, I can usually get along with anyone.

Boy, am I seeing a lot of broad (and misleading) generalizations and stereotypes already in this thread ...

 

[Kodiaz]

Mine haven't gone down.

I'm still trying to figure out how I made 3000 more than last year and have to pay 1000 dollars more in taxes.

 

[Nitrogen]

When people ask me that question, here's how I answer:

I support the ENTIRE bill of rights. Amendment 1 through 10.
I partake of those rights as much as possible.

I also keep up membership in groups that help defend the bill of rights. Unfortunately, there is no one org that does it the way I want, so it takes a few different memberships.


I'm a liberal because I believe that health care is a right that every citizen should have. We've got a lot of smart people in this country, and i'd like to find a way to give every CITIZEN of the US health care, without falling into the socialist traps of countries like Canada.

I'm a liberal because I believe that the government should not take away rights of it's citizens because they happen to engage in a sexual practice that others find squeamish.

I'm a liberal because I believe that totally free markets take advantage of their workers. I think industry and businesses need guidelines to help protect the rights and health of their workers.

Finally, I'm a gunowner because I'm a free thinker. I don't believe everything people of my political persuasion believe. I believe that my right to self defense is just as important as everything I listed above.

I wish others would try and think a bit more freely.

 

[CoachVince]

Is Bush a "practical" liberal then?

Using the term "liberal", when meaning something distinctly different than modern usage, is poor communication. In practical terms, I think liberal really means not letting a Constitution stand in your way or using that Constitution selectively to support only the parts you like. That pretty precisely defines ACLU. Those who want to promote an archaic definition of liberal would rather be pedantic than well understood.

Some would say that those conservatives in gov't. now are not willing to let the Constitution stand in their way (the "secret wiretaps" issue, etc) and selectively support the parts they like (supporting "faith-based" initiatives, etc., in "violation" of the separation of church and state). So, they could be liberals according to your practical terms.

Mind you, I'm just pointing this out as a Devil's Advocate; I'm more in favor of the conservatives in power than the ACLU, in general (though I recognize the concept behind the ACLU as reasonable, if not the execution of the concept ).

 

[ID_shooting]

Finding ones political alignment these day is a tough task. Alot of us have different views and levels of government involvement in our minds.

"2. I like being outdoors so I absolutely hate pollution. I am a tree hugger.

Conservatives haven't met a polluter they didn't love. Let's cut down every tree in this national park and cover it with roads."

I love the outdoors too, but I am also disabled. I would like at leat one or two roads to get me to the top of the mountian, or should it be off limits to me?

I don't like the Patriot Act, I also don't like gun control and would love to reverse the CGA and parts of FOPA, so who do I vote for? I can't vote Lib, All that would do is put another gun grabber in office, the Constituion Party is a joke. I tend to vote single issue (gun control) Sen Kerry would have been proactive about takeing them away, Pres Bush is not. My choice was simple. No matter what freedom-stealing ageneda Pres Bush pushes, he left the ability to fight back alone.

I lurk DU quite a bit, BenEzra does a real good job of comunicating gun rights over thier, but there is a HUGE contingent that would take them away in a heartbeat.

I don't think you can be defined as Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, or Republican anymore.

 

[Kodiaz]

Old Dog I won't "just" you on your spelling.


Hey I.D. I'm no vegan I didn't say no roads.

BTW if you are wheelchair bound you might want to try kayaking.

 

[stevelyn]

What I mean by pro gun liberal.


1. I couldn't care less how many abortions there are.

But if someone says you can't have an abortion then that same someone will say you can't do something else. Conservatives want to tell people what to do.

2. I like being outdoors so I absolutely hate pollution. I am a tree hugger.

Conservatives haven't met a polluter they didn't love. Let's cut down every tree in this national park and cover it with roads.

3. I want the govt. to leave me alone. The only way that will happen is if govt. is as small as possible.

Show me when the self proclaimed conservatives have shrunken govt.

4. I want corporations to leave me alone as well.

Conservatives want corporations to have more rights and freedom than people. Why I don't know.

Your views are more Libertarian rather than liberal.

 

[ID_shooting]

Kodiaz,

That is just it, There is no middle ground. The forces pushing for wilderness designation want to do just that, no roads, no vehicles, no machines of any kind. The other side want open development and logging. I want niether, I want to enjoy the forrest, but I also realize that for EVERYONE to enjoy it, there will have to be some access.

BTW, not wheelchair bound but the Army did put syntetics in my knee and my ability to walk greater than a mile over rough terrain is greatly limited. I choose to use an ATV rather than horses becuases I do not have the facilities nor time and money for thier upkeep.

I get very angry when I encounter locked gates in the national forrests. I served 8 years in teh Army, I got injured while in, I am a disabled vet and draw my monthly pension for it, but I am limited to main roads during hunting season. I do not want to go running cross country or tear up the country side, I just want to use the exsisting trails. I have a handicapped hunters permit, but it means squat when there is a closed gate.

As for kyaking, how do you shoot a deer from a kyak? LOL

 

[Kodiaz]

The same way you shoot from a table sitting down.

ID I bet you can shoot a deer from a kayak a lot better than I can shoot a duck from a kayak.


It is possible they make wide yaks for fishing stable enough to get dragged all over the ocean by big fish. You can also shoot from these. You would be amazed by how much gear you can cram on and in a yak. Also once you get good at paddling you make no noise not even the fish know your there. Sometimes you can sneak up on your targeted fishy and sometimes you spook a gator or a shark.(I love Fl even when I'm scared out of my wits)


Well I think you now have some research to do. I think I've spread my other addiction. I think googling Hunting Kayaks might get you started

You're right about the middle ground we'll just have to make a road and use the fill for middle ground