What good is a rifle for SHTF?

[WolfMansDad]

OK, I've been reading these gun forums (fora?) now for a few months, and I see a lot of talk about the 'SHTF rifle,' debates on caliber, action, etc. I want to step back and ask a different question: Of what possible use is ANY rifle in a SHTF situation?

After Katrina and 9/11, I'll grant you that SHTF is at least possible, and I'll even go so far as to admit that a small fraction of the people involved might even need a firearm. However, I question the idea that a rifle, as opposed to a handgun or a shotgun, would be of any practical use to a lone individual. When the professionals know they are going to be in a gunfight, the do bring rifles, but they also work in teams of at least four men, all of whom have body armor and helmets. There is also medical support and radio communication.

My questions to you all who keep rifles in case of SHTF are these.

1. Have you also arranged to be part of a team, stocked up on body armor, communications equipment, and first aid supplies? All this, of course, in addition to stockpiling food and water.

2. If not, what is your reasoning for getting and keeping a rifle as an individual?

3. Is SHTF really an inside joke that was never meant to be taken seriously?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

However, I question the idea that a rifle, as opposed to a handgun or a shotgun, would be of any practical use to a lone individual.

I question why you would find a shotgun or handgun useful; but cannot find any practical use for a rifle?

When the professionals know they are going to be in a gunfight, the do bring rifles, but they also work in teams of at least four men, all of whom have body armor and helmets.

Sure, who wouldn't want those things in a gunfight; but from your questioning you make it sound like the rifle is worthless without these additional items. I don't understand why you would feel a rifle has no beneficial use unless it also comes with three other guys, body armor, medical supplies, etc.

 

[Cosmoline]

So you're saying I have to operate as part of a SWAT team to use a rifle? That's certainly news.

The rifle has a longer range, is easier to aim, and packs more punch than the handgun.

I question the idea that a rifle, as opposed to a handgun or a shotgun, would be of any practical use to a lone individual.

Where the devil did you get that idea? Rifles have been the tool of choice for hunters and soldiers alike for 150 years or more.

 

[rbernie]

Of what possible use is ANY rifle in a SHTF situation?

Take a defensive pistol class and then take a defensive carbine class, and then come back and see if you need to ask the question again.

 

[ChristopherG]

I question the idea that a rifle, as opposed to a handgun or a shotgun, would be of any practical use to a lone individual.

Well, I don't know much about these things and haven't thought about them much in comparison with a lot of guys here. But I have shot all three weapon types enough to know that if you need a firearm, the ONLY advantage of a handgun over a long-gun is that you can hide it and carry it more conveniently. A long-gun does EVERYTHING far better than a handgun, except hide.

In a SHTF situation, the way many seem to envision it, there might be times when you would need a firearm and not need to conceal it--such as defending your home from looters or other intruders. No-one very familiar with firearms would choose a handgun over a longarm in such a situation.

Some might choose a shotgun, and I can respect that--but if the looters in question come in packs larger than 2, or if THEY have guns, then I'm going to wish that I had a rifle. A rifle can have a much higher rate of fire than a shotgun, and a rifle can go through barriers than will deflect all non-slug shotgun rounds, and a rifle can do this and other things well beyond the range of a shotgun.

So that's kind of my thinking on a rifle's place in a SHTF environment. It's a defensive weapon that I select over a handgun because I can, and over a shotgun because I want to tip the scales as far in my favor as possible in such a nightmare of a situation.

 

[hso]

Rifles have more energy on target, more penetration, greater range and higher capacity than any handgun you can carry and they are easier to learn to shoot well.

Shotguns lack range, penetration and capacity when stacked up against rifles.

Is SHTF really an inside joke that was never meant to be taken seriously?

For most of us, yeah, kinda, since a gun isn't the solution to most problems you need in a real SHTF situation.

 

[goon]

If you can use a rifle for something, then my question is why would you not want to use it?

I learned to shoot a rifle first and it is still the best balance of range, firepower, and accuracy. A handgun is better for CCW, a shotgun may be better for less than 25 yards or if you really have to make one gun do several things, but IMO a rifle is still the best weapon to have if you think you are going to need a weapon.

As for the professionals who go into harms way, it is true that they have many advantages that I wouldn't have. They have a whole network of logistics, people, medical help, armorers, air support, and many others all trying to help them achieve their missiion. I don't have that.
Would I like to be able to call in air support to cover me in the event of SHTF?
Sure.
Will that happen?
Not unless you consider the neighbor kid in the treehouse with his Red Ryder to be air support.
Does that mean that I shouldn't do my best to have a gun or two around just in case I REALLY need them?

I say do whatever you can and hope for the best.
At the least, I don't see how having a rifle around could make things worse.

 

[AH-1]

what gun rifle or pistol doesn't really mean much without proper training.you can have the best weapons money can buy but if your tatics suck then you suck.
pete
pathfinder

 

[Lupinus]

if the mob is coming at me give me to rape and pillage what is mine give me a rifle any day. With a rifle you can kill just as effectivly at 500 yards as you can at 5 yards, no handgun or shotgun can say that.

And such rifles as an SKS, AK, AR15, etc, basicaly any carbine, are very fast handeling.

Shotguns and handguns are prefered for SD for several reasons, indoors esspecialy. But when overpenitration isn't an issue I will gladly take a rifle over a handgun or shotgun for SHTF.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Shotguns are grossly overrated because of the media and hollywood depicting a victim of a shotgun blast being thrown 10ft backward. Also, the depiction of the shotgun blowing a large 16" clean cut hole through walls. Finally, the depiction of a shotgun being loosely aimed, yet still achieving a devistating hit due to the implied massive spread of the shot. All of which are total myths hypocritically spread by an anti-gun establishment.


Pistols are simply not the man-stoppers that rifles are. Not even rifles are guaranteed man-stoppers, but pistols are significantly worse at this task.


Pistols are and always will be side-arms, they are secondary, they are backups to a primary arm (rifle). When you run out of rifle ammo, lose your rifle, rifle jams or breaks and someone is coming at you or has you line up - draw the pistol and get out of the jam.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm not so much worried about angry mobs, but after the next nine pointer I have a feeling that one of the park strip moose will find the situation overwhelming and be driven to take his own life with my rifle.

 

[dragongoddess]

If you can use a rifle for something, then my question is why would you not want to use it?



Noise.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

There is one advantage to handguns in a SHTF situation.

If the SHTF, remember that the government is going to do everything they can to disarm you. Remember New Orleans and Ray Nagin. A rifle cannot be concealed very easily, and if you are walking around with a rifle, the police are going to take it away with force, or kill you. You can keep your handgun concealed.

Now, if the S REALLY HTF, the police won't be around to confiscate, so this won't matter.

 

[Terrill]

Let's face it, the question was put out there not wanting information but to degrade the effforts of those planning to be prepared.
If you doubt the use of a rifle, don't get one, it won't hurt my feelings.

 

[LAK]

Of what possible use is ANY rifle in a SHTF situation?

Everything a handgun is good for except concealment - and "clearing" drains, sewer pipes and the insides of those little houses and buildings found on miniature golf courses - with significantly more power and far greater range. And useful beyond the ranges of most shotguns loaded with slugs - and better penetration of barriers depending on the cartridge and bullet.

However, I question the idea that a rifle, as opposed to a handgun or a shotgun, would be of any practical use to a lone individual.

What is there to question? Identify threat, align sights, pull trigger. The same thing one might have to do when alone with a handgun.

When the professionals know they are going to be in a gunfight, the do bring rifles

Right.

Handgun; weapon of convenience. Easily carried at all times, can be concealed. Limitations; limited power and range, generally difficult to use with pinpoint accuracy beyond spitting distances. Best suited from spitting distance out to somewhere around rock throwing distance depending on the shooter.

Rifle; weapon of choice. Can not be concealed easily, awkward in sewer drains, tends to be inconvenient to carry at all times.

A handgun is carried/worn at all times. A rifle is kept close at hand at all times.

but they also work in teams of at least four men, all of whom have body armor and helmets. There is also medical support and radio communication.

So; if they carried handguns instead of rifles they would not work in fours or more, not wear body armor, helmets, have medical support and radios?

1. Have you also arranged to be part of a team, stocked up on body armor, communications equipment, and first aid supplies? All this, of course, in addition to stockpiling food and water.

This is an odd question; it appears to presuppose that the other things only apply if you keep a rifle handy to protect yourself with during a disaster or other catastrophic breakdown of order and services.

2. If not, what is your reasoning for getting and keeping a rifle as an individual?

With the exception of ease of portability and concealment, the rifle is the "do it all" of personal arms.

Or as Col. Cooper has stated accurately and concisely; "The rifle is the queen of personal
weapons". It is what you want in your hands when anything on two or four legs poses an imminent deadly threat to your life or that of your family etc.

3. Is SHTF really an inside joke that was never meant to be taken seriously?

The many people the world over, throughout history, who have had the SHTF around them will tell you; no, it is no joke.

----------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[wanderinwalker]

In my view, the rifle in a SHTF situation is not necessarily to be used primarily against other people. To my mind, it is to keep me fat and fed if cut off from food supplies.

Would a shottie be just as useful for gathering meats? To a point. But I'm a horrible wing-shooter! Yet turkeys, geese and other portably-sized edibles can be approached on the ground to within rifle range of 100 yards or so, IME. They'd never know what hit them. And I'd be fed and happy while the rest of you worry about protecting your ramen and MREs! Of course living out on the edge of the sticks changes one's approach to these matters.

But seriously, why not have a rifle? Why not have the option of either a rifle, a shotgun or a handgun? Which one are YOU more comfortable and confident with in the end? And most importantly, if you have to go RIGHT NOW, which one goes with you? I think that will determine what you are using if the SHTF.

Take care all!

 

[Roadwild17]

OK, what would a rifle NOT do that you need to do with a gun?

The only answers I could come up with are:

Carry all the time in tight places (where a handgun would come into effect)

Shoot birds (although you MAY be able to get a few off the lines, becides that get a shotgun)

Becides that the rifle is the best tool there is for defind what is yours or adding to the food stores.

If the SHTF, I will have all 3 guns at hand and will be employing the right one when the time arrises.

Have you also arranged to be part of a team, stocked up on body armor, communications equipment, and first aid supplies? All this, of course, in addition to stockpiling food and water.

You may not have & it may be a little over the top to do so, but I know a few people have, I guess that means my house is the HQ for fireteam SH!F but o well

 

[Correia]

Rifle. Check.
Food & water. Check.
Armor. Check.
Friends with all of the above. Check.



What was the point again?

Dragongoddess, as for noise, a $375 .223 suppresor and a $200 tax stamp is about the best money I've ever spent for something gun related. .22 LR noise levels, but if I can see it, I can kill it.

The only people who doubt the effectiveness of a rifle over a pistol just haven't used either one very much.

 

[ctdonath]

1. Have you also arranged to be part of a team, stocked up on body armor, communications equipment, and first aid supplies? All this, of course, in addition to stockpiling food and water.

My family is my team. Having just moved to a new neighborhood, I shall endeavor to add the occupants of Grove Park to my team.

Body armor? good reminder. Been meaning to get some. Maybe of limited utility though, being effective only against COM pistol shots (vs. pistol to extremeties, or rifle to anywhere).

Am progressively stockpiling food, water, comm, and medical supplies. The SHTF gun, of course, is to ensure I keep the supplies when someone else decides what's mine is theirs.

2. If not, what is your reasoning for getting and keeping a rifle as an individual?

Largely redundant per above. Worst case, as Al Capone put it: "You can get more done with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word." (Don't get me wrong: I certainly don't advocate looting ... but when it's your dependents' lives on the line, you'll want the upper hand to create & maintain order in your favor.)

3. Is SHTF really an inside joke that was never meant to be taken seriously?

When I was an infant, my parents were faced with news reports predicting insufficient supplies of natural gas - during a raging week-long New York blizzard, with no alternate heat source and inadequate supplies ... and a needy new baby.
A year ago, just after Katrina hit, a rumor of a gas pipeline shutting down caused a run on gas in the Atlanta region. Before going to work the next day, I walked to the gas station - no gas, didn't expect any for a week. With only half a tank, and work being some 50 miles away, I wasn't going anywhere ... and if the gas shortage held, in mere hours nobody else would be going anywhere either, and for quite some time. Urban apartment life suddenly seemed very ... limited.

I'm not laughing.

In each of these and in many more cases, society came perilously close to breakdown. Lots of people get dangerously stupid, or just dangerous, when society collapses. Being able to stop or deter attacks is reasonable.

SHTF isn't a joke. It can be fun to think about, and we may laugh about mutant zombie hordes attacking, but that's merely a veneer over a deadly serious matter. S does HTF. Often. As there's 6 billion people on this planet, things are going very badly very often for a lot of people somewhere right now - and you don't know when your turn will be. When it is your turn, you'll want a tool that ensures others don't just take what little you have.

I question the idea that a rifle, as opposed to a handgun or a shotgun, would be of any practical use to a lone individual.

A rifle has significantly more power, range, capacity, and accuracy than either. What's to question?

Other than concealability, why would you chose a handgun or shotgun over a rifle? Moreso, why would you pass on a rifle when you could have all three? A handgun on your belt and a shotgun in the corner does not preclude a rifle on your shoulder.

Practical use of rifle to lone individual in SHTF:
- Deterrent. Thugs scoping out a SHTF zone will pass on the guy with the rifle. They may not see the handgun, and know the shotgun has limited capacity and range ... but the guy with the rifle can fight back despite distance and some concealment.
- Hunting. Handguns are generally disallowed for hunting because (save rifle-caliber oddities) they are unreliable and more likely to waste game than harvest it. Shotguns are fine for birds, and required for deer in some jurisdictions precisely because the range is severely limited. .308 can drop pretty much anything, and .223 is adequate when used with care.
- Defense. The SWAT team you mentioned primarily uses rifles - think about it. More ... well ... anything than handguns or shotguns: power, range, accuracy, capacity (assuming EBR).
- Offense. Soldiers use rifles primarily for a reason. Individual operating alone? think sniper.

When the professionals know they are going to be in a gunfight, the do bring rifles, but they also work in teams of at least four men, all of whom have body armor and helmets.

Methinks you just answered your question: when pros are going to take on one person with a rifle, they need all kinds of equipment, training and teamwork to have any assurance they'll all get out of the fight alive. That's one dangerous MF they're up against ... and he's just some schmoe with a gun!

Now consider that when SHTF, looters and other criminal opportunists will be out to take advantage of you & yours. If taking you down reliably requires a SWAT team, you've got good odds against muggers - who will probably move on when they see the boomstick you're holding.

Professionals anticipating a gunfight are planning for a paricular gunfight.
Individuals preparing for SHTF need something general-purpose: a rifle.

BTW: body armor stops most pistol & shotgun rounds ... but to a rifle it practically isn't there.

BTW2: this is a GUN discussion board. If I want to talk in-depth non-gun SHTF details, I'll wander over to Near Death Experiments and Frugal Squirrel.

 

[WolfMansDad]

Thanks for all of your thoughtful replies, especially ctdonath's. To those of you who thought I was stirring up trouble, my apologies.

My point was that, to be truly effective at defense you need to be part of a team. I was wondering why anyone would go so far as to get a rifle, then skip on the other aspects of being prepared. Remember the Korean shopkeepers in the L.A. riots? They used rifles, and they operated in teams.

Several of you responded that you would band together if the S ever really hit the F, and that answers my question. Others pointed out that it would take a team to effectively confront a lone individual with a rifle, and I had not considered that.

 

[TimboKhan]

However, I question the idea that a rifle, as opposed to a handgun or a shotgun, would be of any practical use to a lone individual.

With all due respect, your nuts.

 

[Tokugawa]

Note to self-why do I always seem to be the lone dissenter in any group?! Maybe I really am a cantankerous old fart...!

Unless you are on your OWN ground, defending your own space, (and maybe even then) you are going to get shot strolling around with a long gun visible. How will you ID yourself as a friendly?
Anybody ever see "night of the living dead"? Remember the ending?

Stay low profile, stay with your tribe, stay in your territory and you may get away with being visibly armed. (untill martial law is declared.)
Go roving over the country with your buddies in strange and unfamiliar places with your AR and "blam" is likely to be the last sound you ever hear.

Ever hear the term "looters will be shot"? A "looter" is a stranger with a gun, for all practical purposes.
Flame on ,folks!

 

[phoglund]

What many people don't take into account when considering needs for SHTF situations other than their own is the differences in geographical related circumstances. The specific priorities and needs of an individual living in a highly developed inner city area vs. living in a suburban area vs. living in a more rural area preclude blanket statements about specific needs.

For instance, my house is ~75 yards off the nearest road. The closest concealment/cover is over 100 yards away. If I were in a SHTF situation and vigilant I would first perceive threat at those ranges. In my situation having only a pistol or shotgun for defense would be letting threats inside a perimeter I could reasonably easily defend with a rifle. Handguns, shotguns, and rifles all have a place for me in many SHTF scenarios. There is also plentiful big game within the general vicinity that are better taken with a rifle such as Deer, Elk, and Moose. I also suspect big game rifles are the most common firearm encountered in this area. If somebody else meant me harm they would find it easiest to acquire a scoped rifle with effective range in excess of 300 yards. If I were not similarly armed it would put me at a great disadvantage. A city dweller does not have many of these considerations and may well see the rifle as not particularly useful in comparison to the handgun or shotgun.

Keep asking your questions. If somebody asks a question there are probably several lurkers who are wondering the same thing but are unwilling to ask. After all if there were no questions to ask...there wouldn't be much point to a forum neh?

 

[possum]

Take a defensive pistol class and then take a defensive carbine class, and then come back and see if you need to ask the question again.

period end of disccusion! enough said!

 

[HorseSoldier]

My point was that, to be truly effective at defense you need to be part of a team. I was wondering why anyone would go so far as to get a rifle, then skip on the other aspects of being prepared. Remember the Korean shopkeepers in the L.A. riots? They used rifles, and they operated in teams.

Effectiveness increases exponentially when you have a group, rather than just yourself. But that does not mean that an individual with a rifle cannot effectively discourage looters and other criminal types taking advantage of the choas in a SHTF scenario. If it's the only game in town, there's no reason to quit, etc.

In a Katrina type scenario, odds are the majority of bad guys are looking for unoccupied property to rob. A smaller segment are likely willing to add face to face armed robbery or other crime against unarmed people as well. We're not talking about the biker gang from the Road Warrior gearing up for do-or-die time in the vast majority of SHTF scenarios, but folks who will readily seek easier pickings if faced with armed deterence.

Rifles, especially evil black rifles, provide a highly effective form of visual deterence and can then escalate from there as needed to warning shots or deadly force. If you're a looter and you happen to see some guy looking attentive and situationally aware while holding an M4forgery or the like, I'm inclined to think you give that house, street, whatever a pass. If it comes down to deadly force, the lethality of pretty much any centerfire rifle round far surpasses what all but the heaviest revolver cartridges deliver.

Like others have said, except for the concealment and portability angle, I'd think a rifle beats a pistol in just about all criteria.

Of course, a rifle and a pistol is even better. As is having a solid group of neighbors, friends, relatives, whoever that share your commitment to protecting property and people from looters. But sometimes you have to go with what's on hand, etc.