SHTF Rifle/caliber for handgun shooter?

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fulloflead

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I'm a handgun guy, but I think I need at least one rifle because I'm one of those SHTF preparedness kinda guys.

If I'm going to get and learn really well just ONE rifle caliber and round for SHTF scenario and shoot it just for fun between now and "then", what should it be?

I'm thinking an AR-10, but they're expensive.

I'm hoping to spend less than $900. But I have mixed feelings. I believe you shouldn't skimp on SHTF equipment because when you need it you need it to be good stuff. (Like having good tools in your trunk.) But I can't see spending $1,000+ for a rifle I'm just going to just play with occasionally and keep "just in case".

When suggesting a gun & caliber, please also suggest a bullet weight that I can sight-in for for most uses.

P.S. I'm not a hunter.

.
 
AR-15 due to availibility of ammo in case you need to collect ammo off a dead body etc. and get hollow points for it and the gun will do its job. It also has cheaper ammo than the AK.
 
I thought about it for a while, and I thought .357 magnum would be a great caliber for SHTF. You can get commonality between lever rifles and the revolvers of your choice. You can get loads tailored for hunting or personal defense, but they are interchangeable and either will work in a pinch. You can also carry low-recoil ammo should you be concerned about smaller-framed family members needing to use the same weapons. Revolvers and lever guns also tend to cycle reliably without cleaning when semi-automatics may not. You also don't need magazines for either weapon system (lever guns or revolvers) which is both an advantage and a disadvantage. With a magazine-fed weapon, you have the possibility for faster reload, but should you somehow lose or damage your magazines, you're left with a single-shot weapon. With revolvers and leverguns, you never have that speedy reload, but you'll always have a repeater. .357 is also reasonably flat-shooting for likely SHTF situations, from both rifles and revolvers.

Anyway, that is my case for .357. If you are looking at a .308, I'd look at either a G3, FAL, or M1A. All three can do without maintenance alot better than an AR-10 which could be an issue in SHTF. A CETME could be found in your price range easily.
 
AR-15 only if you plan to be in heavy terrain or an urban area. I vote 308, in case you need to take game or shoot a long way. If I'm on my own, and not part of an Infantry squad, I want something that will go out to at least 600-800 yards. Pretty handy if the other guy has an AR.

AR-10 is the most accurate 308, M1A Reliable and reasonably accurate. FAL rugged, but not up to long range shooting.

If you go the accurate route, and don't handload, 168gn or 175gn Federal Gold Medal Match is the standard. If you can find it, M852 or M118LR, which is the military loading for DMR/Sniper use and basically the same as the above.

You can also go another route and put together a decent tactical bolt gun with scope and mounts for about $1000 that will hit the 20" gong at 1000 yards.

Savage tactical 308
Warne Picatinny base, 20 MOA
TPS 30mm rings
SWFA SuperSniper 10x mildot scope

Total should be right around $1000 give or take $50.

Tio get a semi that will shoot at with the same level of accuracy, be prepared to spend $3k or so.
 
IMHO, the type of rifle you should seek should depend a lot on your surroundings.

If you live in a rural area (woods or by farm lands) I would by all means pick a 308 and put some good optics on it. Whether or not you want to go for a bolt gun or semi-auto is up to you, bolt guns can be had for far less than the semi autos that I have seen.

If you live in a more urban area I would opt for something light and quick handleing. An AR, pistol caliber carbine, or an AK would do pretty well. I know there are many other options, but these are my suggestions.

If you opt for an AR, dont hesitate to pick up an M4gery. They are lighter than the full length version, and as long as youre using HPs you dont have to worry about if the bullet will fragment or not.

When the SHTF, I will be taking my AK. Its a Wasr 10, so it isnt the best AK on the market, but I know it will go bang every time it needs to and Ive never had any problems hitting chest sized targets at 150 yards, and where I live, 150 yards is about the longest shot I could imagine taking. The rifle is light enough that I can carry it all day without being especially fatigued, and ammo is quite affordable.
 
Thee are hard questions, I agree about the .357 lever gun and the ability to shoot the same ammo in a handgun and a rifle. In fact I do own this situation. I also agree that the carbine sized AR-15 is a great choice being a semi-auto and the availability of ammo but it would only be a matter of time before it broke down. That said, I have to give the nod to the lever rifle but probably in a larger caliber, like 44 Mag.
 
I also like the idea of a carbine that handles the same handgun ammo as your sidearms. If you have semiautos, look for one that takes the same magazines. Some examples

Ruger P89/95 and PC9
Smith and Wesson 9mm and Marlin Camp 9
HK USP and USC in .45ACP
1911 and Marlin Camp 45
Glock 9mm or .40 and Keltec Sub2K with Glock setup
Beretta and Keltec
Beretta PX4 and CX4


I'm sure I'm leaving others out.

Then there are the revolver/lever gun combos as mentioned above.

If looking for an actual rifle caliber I would look at .223/.308/.30-06 in whichever platform you're most comfortable with. I picked those three due to ammo availability.
 
AR-15 due to availibility of ammo in case you need to collect ammo off a dead body etc.
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No offense, but if scavaging ammo from dead bodies is part of the survival plan, the plan needs to be re-worked. I've seen this arguement made for 5.56, 7.62, and 9mm repeatedly on threads. This springs from the military and NATO use of these rounds.

While it makes sense on the surface, there are temendous holes in the logic:

1. If there is a situation where you have to obtain ammunition, it is very unlikely that other persons are willing to part with it.

2. If you are obtaining ammuntion from a recently departed person that was carrying any significant quanity of 5.56, 7.62, and/or 9mm, one has to wonder why the person that "departed" them didn't take it.

3. If you were the one that "departed" someone carrying 5.56, 7.62, and/or 9mm, can you be certain that the person's buddies aren't going to object to your scavaging efforts. (Note: I am not advocating or suggesting departing anyone. Frankly, this line of thinking is dangerous.)


4. If you WERE getting ammunition from a departed person, why not pick up the firearm that shoots it. Most people that carry lots of ammunition tend to carry a firearm that will fire it. It's probably as nice as yours.


When I see the reasoning of scavaging ammo from the departed, it amazes me that many seem to thing that Bad Guys carry lots of ammunition and other supplies on them and then go off on their own with no support or back up. It just doesn't work that way. Anyone as well equipped as we often suggest is likely well-prepared. I mean, heck-- we would be relying on the fact that he is better stocked than we are.

The fact is that the only way to ensure enough ammunition is to stockpile your own. That negates the need to seek common caliber with others.


The best course of action is to get a reliable, accurate firearm that fits within your needs and stockpile deep ammunition that feeds it.

Scavaging is like hope. It shouldn't be part of a SHTF plan.


-- John
 
Realistically if you don't plan on shooting the carbine much, it might as well be in the same caliber as your favorite handgun. If for no other reason than for easy stockpiling of ammunition and caliber familiarity.
 
JWarren,

Fantastic post. I don't plan on scavenging either.

As far as pistol caliber carbines, I have to wonder why. Shooting a 9mm out of a long barrel doesn't make that much difference. If you are going to be carrying a rifle, carry one in a rifle caliber. A pistol caliber carbine makes sense for somthing like policing operations, or plinking, where you are basically shooting long guns at pistol distances.

Your pistol is you back up, last ditch weapons. It's what you use to fight you way to you rifle. Hopefully, you won't be shooting it much. You need a small amopunt of ammo for it.

Stockpile rifle ammo. That's your primary tool.

9mm out of a 5 inch barrel will give you 370 ft-lbs. Shooting the same bullet out of an 18 inch barrel gets you up to 561 ft-lbs. M193 5.56 ball is around 1300 ft-lbs at the muzzle. A 223 at 350 yards has more energy than a 9mm carbine has at the muzzle. At 308 has more energy at 850 yards than the carbine has at the muzzle.

In a SHTF situation, distance is you friend.

Just my opinion. YMMV.
 
4. If you WERE getting ammunition from a departed person, why not pick up the firearm that shoots it. Most people that carry lots of ammunition tend to carry a firearm that will fire it. It's probably as nice as yours.
Click to expand...

Bingo.

There's no such thing as a SHTF firearm that doesn't have 1k of ammo with it. :)

To make a reasonable suggestion on something like this, we'd need a whole lot more information--we can all list OUR favorites, but that's pretty obvious just by reading the forums.

I mean, what's your Bug Out/In plan, what's the terrain, what's your community network, and what's the primary and every possible/conceivable use of the firearm. What does SHTF mean to you? A disaster with government resonse (with water about 5 weeks later...)? Or total TEOTWAWKI?

If you just want to keep the dirtbags away from your family and homestead, look at the approaches and see how far a shot you have by someone that could threaten you. You said you're not a hunter and I don't imagine short term STHF scenarios in which you'd feel threatend by someone 600+ yards away. In my current house, a 12 Ga can reach anyone that'd be in position to threaten my security.

My preference is an AK with a complete set of spare parts, plenty of magazines, lots of ammo, and optics (eyes are getting old).

I don't think anyone should even have a STHF rifle unless they have a plan and list of supplies and food/water too. :D
 
I personally don't mind a pistol caliber rifle because part of my strategy would be to avoid any combat in general. I doubt I'm gonna be taking on a unit of Chinese regulars at 600 yards. Much more likely, I'd be in a Katrina-like situation dealing with robbers and looters trying to break into my house. Seems much more likely than Red Dawn to me.
 
Quote:
4. If you WERE getting ammunition from a departed person, why not pick up the firearm that shoots it. Most people that carry lots of ammunition tend to carry a firearm that will fire it. It's probably as nice as yours.
Click to expand...
Bingo.
Click to expand...

Also, what is 'lots'? I keep about 50,000 rounds of ammo in the house. Most people I know are going tp be carrying a couple hundred max. Ammo is heavy. Whe iIshoot in tactical matchs, 6-8 30rn M16 mags is the most I want to carry. That seems like a lots, but it's only 240 rounds, about a half full 30 caliber ammo can. 308 is even worse to pack around. A really well armed predator might have 100 round at most, I expect. Most criminals don't even carry reloads.
 
Ist rifle

If budget is a concern, a good shotgun would be my first, then a rifle. If it comes to that and I hope it doesn't taking the whole rifle would be best. Some one else may have ammo for it.
 
I think that even if I had a variety of AR's and M1A's and whatnot in the gun safe (which I don't, alas), if I were ever plopped into a "Katrina type" situation, I think my "go-to" rifle would still be my SAR-1 (civvie AK). It's handy, not too heavy, accurate enough, supremely reliable, and about as rugged as a detachable-magazine rifle can be.

med_gallery_260_23_20379.jpg


I'm getting into the carbine-match scene a bit now with this rifle, and can operate it well under pressure, so I think it's a good choice for me.

Still, there are a broad spectrum of rifles and shotguns that would work well; the question you need to ask IMO would be, of those rifles (AK, AR, M1A, SKS, mini-14, lever-action .30-30 or .357), which do you think you would enjoy shooting the most in a non-SHTF situation, i.e. Real Life. And pick that rifle, because that's the one you'll become competent with.

Once you pick one, follow jwarren's advice. The best rifle in the world is useless without ammunition.
 
I would go AR

Here's Why:

An AR is a battle rifle. No matter how much you nay-sayers want to dismiss them and put them down, they are our battle rifles. OK, deal with it. Any mil spec AR will go the distance. Feed it decent ammo through a decent mag, lube properly, and it will run through 99% of what ever you can throw at it. In a recent class mine went down but it took firing almost 500 rounds in a day. Keep in mind that a battle pack for our soldiers in Iraq is about 150 rounds. A “full battle pack” is 300 rounds. It took almost 3 times what one of our boys carry in Iraq being fired in less than a day to trip up my crappy, non-mil-spec DPMS AR15. I “built” it (pulled/ pushed 2 pins) for about $625. Spend more and you will have a good rifle. You could build a no frills M4 from LMT for about $1100, or use one of their uppers on a stag lower for about $1000. A bushmaster M4 can be had for about $750.

That said, I think that the 357 lever gun is an awesome idea. For about $500 you can have a carbine that you will have ammo compatibility with your wheel gun. Only carrying one type of ammo is nice.

Also, don’t over look a 30-30 lever action. You can pick up a Marlin 336 for about $350.

Which leads to my next point. While scrounging ammo off of the dead is a dumb idea, buying ammo from stores, or worst case scenario, looting ammo (not recommended) may be a reality, so common calibers would be a good idea.
 
While I own several rifles you may want to consider a pistol/carbine combination like the PX4 and CX4. I have this combination in .40 S&W and depending on the particular situation and probable shooting conditions this may well be the choice that I would make. Carrying ammo can be a heavy proposition, and if you can limit it to one round for both guns (same mags) the savings in terms of portability may justify a carbine over a rifle. Of course, if your target will be beyond 75 yards, then you might want to consider a full caliber rifle. As a handgun shooter you may find .223 or 7.62x39 to be desirable which would offer you the Saigas or a nice carbine sized AR. I have a Bushmaster AK shorty and I'm amazed at the portable lightweight size of this rifle (compared to my PTR 91, Cetme and FAL). An AK would be fine choice as well, especially if it has a quality folding or collapsible stock.

Speed, movement or a confined space may well be considerations.
 
+1 to all the AK posts-
ammos cheap and so are the mags, which makes availability a factor. I might be convinced to carry my 9mm carbine to share ammo with the sig 225, if I had more then one mag for it(and if it wasn't a hi-point;))
four loaded mags of 7.62 x 39, plus about 1,000 spare rounds in house seems a bit more reassuring.
 
I personally do not see the need for a battle rifle for SHTF citations. Sure they have great fire power but are they actually going to be useful compared to guerrilla tactics and buck shot? If you need a rifle then that means you will be taking on targets out to about 300 meters, which most of the time can probably already see you. If your enemy has a scope then your done for. You would be better off with a 590 loaded full of buck shot, slowly moving through the shadows.
 
yep, lots of choices in your scenario

my first thought was get a 357 mag levergun, since you have pistols (I guess I just assume a 357 mag revolver would be in alot of handgun collections) since then you'd have commonality of ammo, and a 357 out of a rifle is very capable of taking deer sized game and even larger if food became a necessity down the road. You could also go the AK route as mentioned since ammo is cheap, they tend to be rugged and reliable even with little upkeep, and once again it would be capable of taking deer or other game if necessary.

You might also just consider something like a basic bolt gun in 30-06, 270, etc. I think people miss the concept when people say scrounging for ammo. When I think that, I'm not thinking going and gunning down the survivalist down the road with the ar-15's, I'm thinking about common ammo that one would find in every little hardware store or would be likely to find in people's abandoned houses that they used for hunting. If you look someplace like Midway where when you do a search for rifle ammo it shows you the most popular/highest selling calibers at the top, I think you will find bo9th 30-06 and 270 to be such calibers. They are also large enough to take any game in north america, and can reach out there if necessary, although I have found most people who talk about shooting things at 1000 yds to be wishful thinking, since I see few average shooters capable of hitting a paper plate every time at 100 yds offhand, let alone 1000, and I'm guessing most won't be hauling around shooting benches and sandbags and such with them in this shtf scenario...;)

oh, a 30-30 levergun might also be a consideration, once again plentiful/common/relatively cheap ammo, fairly fast followup fire, capable of taking anything in north america again, also very light recoil. Most people in my experience are going to shoot their absolute best with something which doesn't recoil much past a 30-30 or 243--even an 06 or 270 has noticeable recoil.
 
Lever gun and revolver in .357. Both would also shoot .38. I shoot smaller guns better than big guns and I like to keep my ammo options open.

Versatility and durability would be the prime concern in any such situation. You can never prepare for every eventuality. (Of course, I do not know whether we are talking a Katrina situation or an apocalyptic scenario. Easier to fight off looters, I think, than to resurrect civilization after a meteor strikes.)
 
As so many have noted, you definition of SHTF will determin what you want or need.

doubleg,

If the bad guys are within 300 meters and I'm alone, I'm already screwed. It want to be able to engage them at 600-800 yards, so they never see me. Tis is predicated on the assumption that there is no law per se and I am not going to be arrested for murder and explain why someone at 800 yards was an 'immediate threat'.

I also happen to live in Western Montana, and there is lots of open terrain.

If I'm worried about looters in a Post Katrina event, and want to scare them off, a shotgun is fine. If I have to hunt game, I want a rifle, because ammo is much more compact and effective at longer range. The shotgun, even with 00 Buck, is a 50 yard weapon at best. It's also pretty indiscriminate at longer range.
 
Why on earth would you waste your time on a SHTF rifle that is no better than your pistol at taking out targets inside of 150 yards? If you can't hit a man sized target com at 150 yards with your current pistol of choice, either practice more or get a better pistol. I can put sixteen rounds of 200gr 10mm through a pie plate at 150 yards in less than four seconds. My SHTF rifle(s) are either a 7mm Rem Mag bolt gun with 4X16 scope or my 308 Saiga with it's russky 8 power. Rifles, in the presence of side arms need to be better than the side arm or you're just packing junk you don't need. That said, I'd go with the earlier post and get the Savage in 308 and start stocking up on ammo and PRACTICE at known and unknown ranges or buy a good rangefinder then learn where those 168gr boat tail hollow points go at various ranges, wind factors and angles of elevation.
 
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