Looking back over the posts, something occured to me. Many have suggested the AR and AK because they are 'battle' rifles. The problem with this is that in most SHTF scenario, you aren't in battle. You aren't part of an infantry squad doing fire and maneuver and engaging the enemy because you have to take some objective. More likely, you are the defender, and probably alone. You are a sniper, fighting a defensive or delaying action, probably against a superior force. You need to think like a sniper. Going on the offensive already puts you at a disadvange. Getting within their effective fire works against you. If there is too much fire power, your best bet is to withdraw if the attacker don't disengage.
SHTF Rifle/caliber for handgun shooter?
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indie
Member
i dont understand how you can think in terms of SHTF and then choose the scenario either. SHTF is an unpredictable social dissaster. If you need a SHTF gun, i dont think you need gun that you can use with the versatility and reliability to preserve you and your family's lives and to adapt to many different situations
You have great points
But these were the exact reasons that made me recommend an AR. You can engage multiple targets in rapid succession. You can pour a volume of fire from your position, which if you are defending will most likely me a fixed position, while behind cover. You can, with minimal practice, make consistent hits on a human size target at 500 yards with a AR carbine, now I know that a moving target is harder but I think that the AR offers a good all around choice.
The sniper comment is valid… until they get close, or it they have a rifle with legs that can reach out and touch you, because once you betray your position, you could be in trouble.
All that said, you will most likely be up against opportunistic looters who will high tail it out of there the second that they start hearing gunshots, never mind if they start taking incoming fire, and if that be that case, then just about anything will do.
But these were the exact reasons that made me recommend an AR. You can engage multiple targets in rapid succession. You can pour a volume of fire from your position, which if you are defending will most likely me a fixed position, while behind cover. You can, with minimal practice, make consistent hits on a human size target at 500 yards with a AR carbine, now I know that a moving target is harder but I think that the AR offers a good all around choice.
The sniper comment is valid… until they get close, or it they have a rifle with legs that can reach out and touch you, because once you betray your position, you could be in trouble.
All that said, you will most likely be up against opportunistic looters who will high tail it out of there the second that they start hearing gunshots, never mind if they start taking incoming fire, and if that be that case, then just about anything will do.
cameron.personal
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In uncertain times and uncertain circumstances, my wife and I would be covered with a semi-auto in both .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 they are common calibers and we have a ready supply of each. They are both capable of good performance from 0 to 300 meters and the .308 out to 600 with the right optics...
In either rifle, these calibers mean a nice accurate, light weight rifle....
In either rifle, these calibers mean a nice accurate, light weight rifle....
unrealtrip
Member
As someone already said, you've got to define SHTF and what your objective is in any given situation, SHTF is too broad.
There are many all hell broke loose scenarios that would best be served by different equipment for different reasons. Since this is a gun board, we might as well leave out all the other preparedness stuff, water, food, etc and focus on the guns aspect. But depending on your objective, needs vary.
Alien invasion:
- Defending the homefront
- Leaving your house and dealing with the aliens on the street
- Heading for the hills with what you can carry in a car
- Heading for the hills with what you can carry on your back
Defending the homefront: shotgun, .45
On the street: Semi-auto rifle & .45, urban: .223, rural: .308
Heading for the hills carry in car: Big cal rifle, .45
Heading for the hills carry on back: .22LR, .45
But generally speaking, I don't think leaving the castle is a good idea unless there is a reason to vacate town, in which case, it's a head for the hills situation.
Just my 2 cents on the matter
There are many all hell broke loose scenarios that would best be served by different equipment for different reasons. Since this is a gun board, we might as well leave out all the other preparedness stuff, water, food, etc and focus on the guns aspect. But depending on your objective, needs vary.
Alien invasion:
- Defending the homefront
- Leaving your house and dealing with the aliens on the street
- Heading for the hills with what you can carry in a car
- Heading for the hills with what you can carry on your back
Defending the homefront: shotgun, .45
On the street: Semi-auto rifle & .45, urban: .223, rural: .308
Heading for the hills carry in car: Big cal rifle, .45
Heading for the hills carry on back: .22LR, .45
But generally speaking, I don't think leaving the castle is a good idea unless there is a reason to vacate town, in which case, it's a head for the hills situation.
Just my 2 cents on the matter
cameron.personal
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See, that's why I like the idea of a nice light accurate autoloading .308 it is the caliber you can use for ALL of the above situations.
unrealtrip
Member
I sort of agree with you, but...
I wouldn't want to plug someone coming in my back window with a .308, way too much power for the short ranges of my house, it'd go through him and into who knows what. Def a great caliber for reaching out some distance for sure, so if I was perched on my roof or in a rural area outside it'd be a choice weapon.
For heading to the hills in a car, it would be fine, you can carry a lot.
For heading to the hills on foot, .22LR in my opinion is the only logical choice, it is quiet and can easily be silenced to not give away your position, you can hunt with it and it can still kill a man. Gotta think about ammo weight here. I can carry a thousand rounds of .22 in my front pockets, my .308 ammo is friggin heavy in bulk. I love my .308, but a survival weapon it is not. Ammo is way too heavy to carry a lot of on foot assuming I might be out for some time.
Oohrah
Member
Bolt gun are less likely to break, and consideration of skills
to fix them should be a factor. Centerfires such as the power
range of the .308 are effective at close range as well as distant.
Stock pile ammo, food and water. Forget bug out into the unknown
You can't hump needed anything for long term, so why venture
out of your familar area. Gather materials to load your own ammo
to replentish and use expanding ammo for ALL purposes. I consider
a handgun a tool to get to a rifle. Find like minded neighbors, as
no man is an island.
to fix them should be a factor. Centerfires such as the power
range of the .308 are effective at close range as well as distant.
Stock pile ammo, food and water. Forget bug out into the unknown
You can't hump needed anything for long term, so why venture
out of your familar area. Gather materials to load your own ammo
to replentish and use expanding ammo for ALL purposes. I consider
a handgun a tool to get to a rifle. Find like minded neighbors, as
no man is an island.
I vote for AR as well. Good gun for all the above mentioned reasons.
And I also vote for common ammo (what ever it may be). Any one who owns an odd ball car, (or an odd ball anything for that matter) knows how nice it is to have a common stuff. When you drive across the country, you'll be glad you drive a Camary when your radiator breaks, and not some Opel or something.
And I also vote for common ammo (what ever it may be). Any one who owns an odd ball car, (or an odd ball anything for that matter) knows how nice it is to have a common stuff. When you drive across the country, you'll be glad you drive a Camary when your radiator breaks, and not some Opel or something.
rdaines
Member
Even though I added my 2 cents already and since this SHTF situation has not been defined, I'll that if it were a Katrina-style event and we stayed home then I'd choose my AR-15 in 5.56/.223. One upstairs and one downstairs.
Texasred
Member
Hey MPMARTY where did you get your scope for your SAIGA?
Houston Tom
Member
I agree you are going to need to define exactly what you want this weapon to do, even if it is just getting in your mind what you think your going to need and what will happen.
THen look at the area you
ALa bug out I have to find food then the pistol is a defensive weapon and a good rifle to hunt, a lever 30-30 or 45-70.
If you see end of world then I would suggest 2 rifles one to fight goblins with ala 223 and one to hunt.
Me i went with the try to get one of everything 30-30 223 22 in rifles and a couple of good pistols stock pile the house and wait em out.
THen look at the area you
ALa bug out I have to find food then the pistol is a defensive weapon and a good rifle to hunt, a lever 30-30 or 45-70.
If you see end of world then I would suggest 2 rifles one to fight goblins with ala 223 and one to hunt.
Me i went with the try to get one of everything 30-30 223 22 in rifles and a couple of good pistols stock pile the house and wait em out.
Foxtrot427
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Saiga in .223 possibly converted if you like PGs more. They usually sell converted ones for pretty cheap too. near ar equal AR accuracy...AK reliability and simplicity. Also common parts to come by. Maybe not AR common in America but still.
Taurus44
Member
Picking a single gun for all scenarios is silly. There really is no "best" option. We're talking about tools, and different jobs require different tools. But... I'd pick an AR15 in 5.56/.223 for the widest range of uses.
That being said, I have multiple shotguns, a couple 16" ARs in 5.56, a 20" AR in 6.5 Grendel, a Savage 10FP in 7.62, and I'm working on a 30" .50BMG for those "reach WAY out and touch someone" moments. Each tool is purpose built for a different job. There is always going to be some overlap, though.
That being said, I have multiple shotguns, a couple 16" ARs in 5.56, a 20" AR in 6.5 Grendel, a Savage 10FP in 7.62, and I'm working on a 30" .50BMG for those "reach WAY out and touch someone" moments. Each tool is purpose built for a different job. There is always going to be some overlap, though.
Guys,
Lets not get into a "This rifle is SO much better than that one" discussion.
We all have our favorites, but being my favorite doesn't make yours unable to fullfill the needs you may have of it. In addition, different parts of the country would make different rifles/calibers more or less appropriate. For instance, I like AR-15s, I really do. But it is also illegal for me to deer hunt with a .223 in my state. Obviously, laws like that really don't matter as much in a SHTF, but it does matter this deer season. If I am going to toss a grand into a rifle, it needs to be one that I can use when S ISN'T HTF, too.
So, I use AKs for brush/trail guns, and a Saiga 308 for a primary rifle. Both are excellent deer rifles in their respective roles. They also lend themselves well to SD/SHTF considerations. But that's just me. Deer hunting is a big part of my considerations since I do it regularly.
At the same time, neither the AK, the Saiga 308, or even someone else's AR is gonna be a great choice if I needed to rabbit hunt (unless I wanted it field dressed and cooked before picking it up. ) No, a .22 rimfire or a shotgun is great for that role.
Like said on this thread, firearms are tools. Some work better in some roles than others. Considerations should include tools that fit the needs. This is not an issue in a "Bug In" situation. And frankly, 95% of my planning is "Bug In." While I understand the need for "Bugging Out" in many people's situation, this is basically plan B for most people.
To save myself some typing I looked up a couple things I put on a couple other threads that comes close to this discussion. Forgive me if I sound full of myself for basically quoting myself. Its not that at all. I'm operating on a time limit before the wife gets mad, and figured I could save some time. Beside, I don't have all the answers... hell, I don't even have all the questions. But like you, I try to figure it out as I go.
Regarding the need to define SHTF as we are discussing it:
From the thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=288863
Regarding Bugging In or Bugging Out:
from the thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=278627
Anyway, I hope that contributes in a positive manner to this discussion in some way or the other.
-- John
Lets not get into a "This rifle is SO much better than that one" discussion.
We all have our favorites, but being my favorite doesn't make yours unable to fullfill the needs you may have of it. In addition, different parts of the country would make different rifles/calibers more or less appropriate. For instance, I like AR-15s, I really do. But it is also illegal for me to deer hunt with a .223 in my state. Obviously, laws like that really don't matter as much in a SHTF, but it does matter this deer season. If I am going to toss a grand into a rifle, it needs to be one that I can use when S ISN'T HTF, too.
So, I use AKs for brush/trail guns, and a Saiga 308 for a primary rifle. Both are excellent deer rifles in their respective roles. They also lend themselves well to SD/SHTF considerations. But that's just me. Deer hunting is a big part of my considerations since I do it regularly.
At the same time, neither the AK, the Saiga 308, or even someone else's AR is gonna be a great choice if I needed to rabbit hunt (unless I wanted it field dressed and cooked before picking it up.
) No, a .22 rimfire or a shotgun is great for that role.Like said on this thread, firearms are tools. Some work better in some roles than others. Considerations should include tools that fit the needs. This is not an issue in a "Bug In" situation. And frankly, 95% of my planning is "Bug In." While I understand the need for "Bugging Out" in many people's situation, this is basically plan B for most people.
To save myself some typing I looked up a couple things I put on a couple other threads that comes close to this discussion. Forgive me if I sound full of myself for basically quoting myself. Its not that at all. I'm operating on a time limit before the wife gets mad, and figured I could save some time. Beside, I don't have all the answers... hell, I don't even have all the questions. But like you, I try to figure it out as I go.
Regarding the need to define SHTF as we are discussing it:
From the thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=288863
Regarding Bugging In or Bugging Out:
from the thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=278627
Anyway, I hope that contributes in a positive manner to this discussion in some way or the other.
-- John
I would get a 308 or similiar power caliber for your SHTF rifle. It may be a little to much for all SHTF scenarios, but it's better to have too much than too little. A 308 would provide superior range and penetration power. It's not hard to imagine a situation where you would need to stop a vehicle or engage targets that are lightly armoured.
As fro a particular rifle, relatively inexpensive rifles ARE available. A stock Saiga 308 is around $400. A ROMAK III, less than $800. A DPMS in 308 is less than $1000. I have also seen the DPMS available from gunbroker as a layaway, so you could get one over time.
As fro a particular rifle, relatively inexpensive rifles ARE available. A stock Saiga 308 is around $400. A ROMAK III, less than $800. A DPMS in 308 is less than $1000. I have also seen the DPMS available from gunbroker as a layaway, so you could get one over time.
A final thought. In my case, if it's a really serious SHTF situation, I round up my friends, most of whom are gun nuts. Always better to have someone to watch your back, provide cover fire, etc.
Having an assortment of weapons is great, as is the notion of picking the right tool for the job. Unfortunately, your going to be stuck with whatever is on hand, and it will probably be the wrong thing.
My daily carry is a 2" Colt Dick Special. If I dopn;t happen top be at home, where my gun safes are, that's what I am stuck with. I typically have my keltec SU-16 folded up in the car, so I might have a rifle.
If I'm at home, I have the big toolbox, but knowing how things work, whatever I pick will be wrong. That's why I want something that's OK at everything, even if it's not perfect at any one thing.
I like the previous posters notion of 'better too much than not enough'. Ig the M1A SOCOM was halfway accurate, that would be my personal pick - but then I live in an open, rural area. Naturally, the SOCOM is not highly accurate. It's slightly accurate, as in 2-3 MOA with good loads - slightly better than an AK.
For tose who argue 223 vs 308, I have both. Picking 223 for it's military or police use is folly. You aren't going to be scavanging ammo from military units unless things are really, really bad. Those police that do carry 223 typically have very little ammo, except maybe the SWAT team, and again, you won't be salvaging ammo from them.
My argument for the 308 is that it will do anything the 223 or 7.72x39 will, and do it better except is isn't too controllable under full auto. This is a non-issue. Not too many people own Class 3, and most aren't going to be showing them off in a SHTF situation unless things are really, really bad, and they have an unbelievable stockpile of ammo.
The one real penalty of going 308 is weight. Ammo weighs more, the gun weighs more. However, since I'm not restricted ball ammo, I'll be using nice expanding ammo, and with good expanding ammo, the 223 doesn't even come close to the 308.
Then again, with my 'group', I can have a nice mix for every occasion
Having an assortment of weapons is great, as is the notion of picking the right tool for the job. Unfortunately, your going to be stuck with whatever is on hand, and it will probably be the wrong thing.
My daily carry is a 2" Colt Dick Special. If I dopn;t happen top be at home, where my gun safes are, that's what I am stuck with. I typically have my keltec SU-16 folded up in the car, so I might have a rifle.
If I'm at home, I have the big toolbox, but knowing how things work, whatever I pick will be wrong. That's why I want something that's OK at everything, even if it's not perfect at any one thing.
I like the previous posters notion of 'better too much than not enough'. Ig the M1A SOCOM was halfway accurate, that would be my personal pick - but then I live in an open, rural area. Naturally, the SOCOM is not highly accurate. It's slightly accurate, as in 2-3 MOA with good loads - slightly better than an AK.
For tose who argue 223 vs 308, I have both. Picking 223 for it's military or police use is folly. You aren't going to be scavanging ammo from military units unless things are really, really bad. Those police that do carry 223 typically have very little ammo, except maybe the SWAT team, and again, you won't be salvaging ammo from them.
My argument for the 308 is that it will do anything the 223 or 7.72x39 will, and do it better except is isn't too controllable under full auto. This is a non-issue. Not too many people own Class 3, and most aren't going to be showing them off in a SHTF situation unless things are really, really bad, and they have an unbelievable stockpile of ammo.
The one real penalty of going 308 is weight. Ammo weighs more, the gun weighs more. However, since I'm not restricted ball ammo, I'll be using nice expanding ammo, and with good expanding ammo, the 223 doesn't even come close to the 308.
Then again, with my 'group', I can have a nice mix for every occasion
I see lots of votes for ARs and .308s, but you seem to be forgetting one thing in recommending those $1000+ rigs:
Assuming that's the bottom line, I'd recommend an old Mosin-Nagant M44 or 91/30 ($100), and about 7000 rounds of milsurp ammo ($40/330 rounds).
If you do your part, those old bolt-actions will reach out and mess up someone's day at the better part of a thousand yards. They're also cheap enough that you can pick up a couple for spares... or friends.
Also, an old .22 with a shoebox full of .22LR "bricks" can keep meat on the table for quite some time. It's good for small game, up to small predators (foxes, etc.); the Mosin is good for deer size and up, and the handguns will take care of everything in the middle.
Assuming that's the bottom line, I'd recommend an old Mosin-Nagant M44 or 91/30 ($100), and about 7000 rounds of milsurp ammo ($40/330 rounds).
If you do your part, those old bolt-actions will reach out and mess up someone's day at the better part of a thousand yards. They're also cheap enough that you can pick up a couple for spares... or friends.
Also, an old .22 with a shoebox full of .22LR "bricks" can keep meat on the table for quite some time. It's good for small game, up to small predators (foxes, etc.); the Mosin is good for deer size and up, and the handguns will take care of everything in the middle.
chieftain
Member
It never pays to be a refugee and ANYBODY who is not staying in, during a situation IS A REFUGEE.
If you don't have a choice, or have chosen to become a refugee, carrying any weapon that people can see is going to cause you grief. Think CCW.
Stay at home, and your selection should be only limited by your safe and your wallet. Enough ammo, and neigbors who you know, to help stand watch.
And the biggest advantage of all, you know your own ground intimately. Defending should be as easy as it is going to get.
If they come at you with a full Panzer division, it doesn't matter what you have, it ain't enough.
And as in post Katrina, it could be Bad Guys or the authorities. AS is often the case, you can't tell them apart. Oh, the Bad Guys usually will not be as well equipped.
Go figure.
Fred
You can build your own AR-15 in the $600-700 range pretty easily if you don't necessarily demand all the bells and whistles.
I'd be hesitant to recommend a Mosin Nagant with surplus ammo just because it's all corrosive, and I doubt cleaning would be a big priority. I personally think damage of corrosive ammo is overrated in the short term, but in a long-term survival situation, I wouldn't want to be packing a supply of corrosive ammo.
I'd be hesitant to recommend a Mosin Nagant with surplus ammo just because it's all corrosive, and I doubt cleaning would be a big priority. I personally think damage of corrosive ammo is overrated in the short term, but in a long-term survival situation, I wouldn't want to be packing a supply of corrosive ammo.
TimboKhan
Member
Unless I missed it, I am somewhat surprised to see that no one mentioned the SKS. I know that the OP has a budget that will allow for a "better" gun (and, in fact, my vote lies with the AR), but the SKS is a pretty good alternative to the AR and even the AK. Rugged rifle, decent round, inexpensive platform. Plus, with the addition of a Tapco T-6 stock, you have a rifle that can stand up to the harshest of conditions.
I would also add that I personally feel that a .22 rifle/handgun of some sort is pretty much required for SHTF situations. Aside from repelling boarders and shooting deer as required, the .22 is the perfect cartridge for survival.
I would also add that I personally feel that a .22 rifle/handgun of some sort is pretty much required for SHTF situations. Aside from repelling boarders and shooting deer as required, the .22 is the perfect cartridge for survival.
Unless I missed it, I am somewhat surprised to see that no one mentioned the SKS.
Now that you mention it, that's why I put this one together:
http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1930ng4.jpg
I call it "Crazy Ivan". Truth be told, I had in mind zombies more than anything else
Now that you mention it, that's why I put this one together:
http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1930ng4.jpg
I call it "Crazy Ivan". Truth be told, I had in mind zombies more than anything else
dstorm1911
Member
AK folder 24" long folded can be hidden under an average BDU Shirt if ya don't want to draw attention while crossing roads etc... can vanish in a vehicle.., lil tiny Kel Tec P3AT, stash the AK if need be and clip the KT to your boxers... nobody has ever felt threatened by a dazed and confused man stumblin towards em in his boxers......... now ya got your FA provided that was your intended goal........... go back and retrieve your AK and fade away....
Substitute a .32 acp Carpati for the KelTec and I witnessed this exact scene play out in Iraq, the 2 British SAS never saw it comming 1 died the other crippled from neck down the dazed/confused man vanished into a very crowded apartment building with their weapons and most ammo......... he dropped the .32 while gathering the weapons/ammo...... it was a real wake up call for others
Substitute a .32 acp Carpati for the KelTec and I witnessed this exact scene play out in Iraq, the 2 British SAS never saw it comming 1 died the other crippled from neck down the dazed/confused man vanished into a very crowded apartment building with their weapons and most ammo......... he dropped the .32 while gathering the weapons/ammo...... it was a real wake up call for others
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