longhair75
Member
At every discussion about the sacred 1911 I often wonder why, if this is the absolute best pistol design, why J.M. Browning went on to design the Browning Hi Power 9mm.......
What if 1911 never existed?
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Everyone knows that we would be speaking German bacuse a group of 1911s single-handedly stormed the beaches of Normandy and fought Charlie. That is what makes a 1911 a far superior weapon to any and all polymer weapons, especially Glock. Because the 1911 was winning wars by itself before Gaston was even born.
Joking aside, I vote H&K 45. Not the USP series but the new one.
Joking aside, I vote H&K 45. Not the USP series but the new one.
Zundfolge
Member
If the 1911 designed by John Moses Browning didn't exist, we'd all be talking about the Savage 1907 .45acp (which would likely have been called the 1911 when the US Army adopted it).
Lonestar49
Member
An idea whose time has come.. lol
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Without doubt, had the 45 cal been developed for any and all guns other than the 1911 model - whoever would, finally, come up with the 1911 design, let's say, within just the last 5 or 10yrs would be a "very successful" person and the demand, for this new, different, platform, gun to this day, would be great..
Ls
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Without doubt, had the 45 cal been developed for any and all guns other than the 1911 model - whoever would, finally, come up with the 1911 design, let's say, within just the last 5 or 10yrs would be a "very successful" person and the demand, for this new, different, platform, gun to this day, would be great..
Ls
swinokur
Member
This was the spirit of my OP
Jim Watson
Member
Because his contacts at FN told him they could sell guns to the French if he designed a nice 9mm. It did not work out that way, but that is why he started in on it and Dieudonne Saive finished it. (Largely by putting in 1911 design features when the patents ran out.)
Mr Browning was a pretty good businessman and he did not design guns in an ivory tower for the fun of it, he was designing guns that would sell.
Demitrios
Member
Then we would've gone straight to 1912.
I figured as much swinokur. I'm a 1911 guy guy but we deserve a good natured ribbing from time to time. I am suprised that there are less H&K answers on this thread givin the amount of love these guns have with the mall ninja leet operator crew.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Browning's design (under contract to Colt) was selected in competition with about a half dozen other makes. If Browning hadn't designed the weapon selected, some other weapon would have been our standard.
If there had been no .45 ACP cartridge, and if the Army hadn't wanted an automatic, we would probably have stuck with the M1909, AKA the Colt New Service revolver in .45 Colt.
If there had been no .45 ACP cartridge, and if the Army hadn't wanted an automatic, we would probably have stuck with the M1909, AKA the Colt New Service revolver in .45 Colt.
MYREDTAIL
Member
My Glock 21 with out a doubt.
Taroman
Member
Guess we would have carried 45 caliber Lugers.
Zundfolge beat me to it. That thing is a Buck Rogers pistol.
tinygnat219
Member
This is.... funny beyond all hell. Thank you for making my morning!
Don't know. Don't think so.
I have read everything I can get my hands on those tests and the adoption of the M1911.
The Army, particularly the Horse Cavalry, was happy with their New Service Revolvers. You have to remember, the Army likes what it has, wants something better but only a little different, and totally rejects revolutionary change.
An auto pistol was a big change for an organization whose leadership used, liked, and was familiar with the Colt Single Action Army. A double action pistol was a stretch, a new fangled auto pistol?: that was way out of their comfort zone. The Horse Cavalry was still around till WWII. They put their horses in horse trailers, drove to location, unloaded horses and troops, and practiced saber charges. These guys are not into change, never have been, and never will be.
That was the big reason it took so long to get an autopistol in service, and why the M1911 was developed into a reliable, powerful, and most advanced auto pistol of the period. Just look at the M1905 and the transition models. The Army always found something to complain about these early versions. One very real issue was reliability. Both the M1911 and Colt New Service revolver were endurance tested with 5000 rounds. Neither broke a part. I expect 5000 rounds was considered the service life of a pistol and the test was not a test to failure. The Army was not going to adopt a pistol that was less reliable than the Colt New Service. It took arm twisting to get them to adopt a semi auto that was equal in 5000 round reliability to the Colt New Service.
The Savage was not as reliable and would not have been adopted. Probably there would have been more competitions and who knows what design would have come forth. It is highly likely it would have been a John Browning design as he was the premier firearm designer of the period. Everything he designed worked, and worked well.
The Army tested the Luger. If you have ever handled the P-08, it is not as good as a M1911, eventually the Germans dumped it. I have heard it was dust sensitive among other issues.
cougar1717
Member
Well, here you go...Without the 1911, the world would have just kept revolving since no one ever misses something that never existed in the first place. The US would have adopted something else as the "standard" military handgun, maybe even a 9mm (gasp!). The 1911 is iconic because of it's unique style, it's function as a semi-auto at the time, the caliber, and its' place in history as it relates to anything that is connected to WWII. Without the war and the glamour of it in movies of the time period, who knows, as silly as it sounds without the 1911, THR members may be discussing fully custom P-38's.
Well if the 1911 was never invented it would have saved me the trouble of buying the 4 1911s I've had over the years that I traded off because I got tired of trying to get them to work!
Then I would have just bought the P220 I have now. The 1911 may be the mother's milk of many guys but I like the P220 or the M&P 45s much better. BUT if it weren't for the popularity and reputation of the 1911 many of the fine .45s we have today might not have been made. There are few weapons sweeter than a good running 1911. The problem is that it seems there are few weapons RARER than a good running 1911. OK, thats not really true (mostly) but there are really fine .45s that don't wear the 1911 monicker that still owe their lineage to JMB so I still give the 1911 its due.
Then I would have just bought the P220 I have now. The 1911 may be the mother's milk of many guys but I like the P220 or the M&P 45s much better. BUT if it weren't for the popularity and reputation of the 1911 many of the fine .45s we have today might not have been made. There are few weapons sweeter than a good running 1911. The problem is that it seems there are few weapons RARER than a good running 1911. OK, thats not really true (mostly) but there are really fine .45s that don't wear the 1911 monicker that still owe their lineage to JMB so I still give the 1911 its due.
Old Navy
Member
I have owned or shot most every brand of handgun at some time in the last 50 years and if there were no 1911's I'd be content with any of the H&K models I have ever shot. IMHO there is no better gun maker than H&K, outside the 1911 customs or semi customs.
I think it was a joke and he forgot to post a disclaimer for the literalists.
When I was in the Marine Corps, and back then we traveled in our uniforms, I wore a 4th award expert badge for pistol and rifle. I was always stopped by other Marines because they never had to qualify with the pistol. In fact most Marines are never issued a pistol unless you are an MP (like me), or an Officer. I think you are correct the military would be largely unaffected with whatever pistol choice was made.
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