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What if scenario...coming home and seeing someone in your garage

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by turbohardtop, Mar 3, 2010.

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  1. turbohardtop

    turbohardtop Member

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    I was wondering what would you do (in TX) when you come home from work and seeing someone trying to leave with your goods and you do not know if the perps are armed. What would you do?
     
  2. HexHead

    HexHead Member

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    In Texas you are allowed to use deadly force to stop someone from stealing your stuff. Google Joe Horn.
     
  3. MisterMike

    MisterMike Member

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    I'm not in Texas, but I think I'd just call the cops, get their identifying info, take photos, etc. While you might have the legal right to intervene with deadly force, you have to ask yourself whether it's worth the risks, including the risk of catching a bullet yourself.
     
  4. 7.62 Nato

    7.62 Nato Member

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    Too many variables to speculate. If you can say now what you would do in a hypothetical then you are not using the most important thing, your brain. You have to have situational awareness to know what's going on, and act on that information at that time.
     
  5. LEVRLOVR

    LEVRLOVR Member

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    You leave out too many variable in your scenario to make a good judgement call.

    How many perps?
    Am I already armed?
    Are they visibly armed?
    Am I alone?
    Are other family members in the house? etc.
     
  6. wishin

    wishin Member

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    It's funny how one can hypothesize on what he'll do in a life or death situation, and what he actually does. I thought I knew. My first encounter in Vietnam was an early morning sapper attack of our compound. I stupidly ran out of my hooch directly toward the explosions with an M16. Fortunately, I survived that brain fart and was all the wiser for it.

    Unless your only option is to immediately defend yourself or family, stop for a few moments and think things out logically, then act.
     
  7. JellyJar

    JellyJar Member

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    Texas's laws about the use of deadly force to protect property is different then what many believe. Here is a definitive reference:

    http://www.self-defender.net/law3.htm

    Please note the following quotes:

    As you can see the key is nighttime.
     
  8. edSky

    edSky Member

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    What MisterMike says. Why put yourself in danger when you can take a safer position, call the cops, etc.?
     
  9. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Our member Mas Ayoob, did article on this topic in the March/April 2010 edition of American Hangunner. Interesting reading. Not to give away the ending, but it was expensive and grueling for the home owner.

    Without a more detailed set of variables, I can only say, know the laws of your state, use good judgement, situational awareness, your brain, eyes, and cell phone.
     
  10. figment

    figment Member

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    stop them.
     
  11. ironduke

    ironduke Member

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    What could be in your garage that would be worth getting shot over? It seems like a big risk to get in a voluntary shootout over material items.
     
  12. cottonmouth

    cottonmouth Member

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    Turn the garage into a drive through.

    J.B.
     
  13. turbohardtop

    turbohardtop Member

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    The garage would lead into the house where the loved ones could be at home at the time. The gunsafe is also in the garage.
     
  14. Avizpls

    Avizpls Member

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    if you come in that garage, they will retreat....INTO the house. which is not a good situation if loved ones are home. Just a thought
     
  15. Gouranga

    Gouranga Member

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    Assuming nobody is in the house (my family) my state law is clear. I cannot use deadly force to protect property. I can go up there and drop a can of whoop-*** on them, however, should they have a weapon, I am in trouble.

    I have homeowners, and a camera. I will let homeowners replace what they break/take, use the cam to help the cops catch them. Given our state laws, to do otherwise would just not give me any acceptable options beyond retreat.
     
  16. JDoe

    JDoe Member

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    Try to stay unnoticed, stay on their tail and give descriptions and turn by turn location updates to local law enforcement. Been there done that and it wasn't a big deal.

    For many reasons I would not engage in an armed confrontation with the bad guys of unknown capability in this situation. Firstly, innocents might get hit by rounds fired by either side. Second I don't need the legal headache. Third I don't need the stress of wondering about potential retaliation from said bad guys family, friends or gang members, etc. Fourth I really don't want to risk my life for stuff that could be replaced with a few thousand dollars. Etc.
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Might be a good idea to change that.
     
  18. bababooey32

    bababooey32 Member

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    Jelly - if they were in your garage without permission (as in the hypopthetical presented), then they have committed burglary which is not covered by the "nighttime" qualifier. Technically, deadly force could be used to stop the burglary in progress.

    Tactically it may not be the wisest move to engage unknown threats who have (as another poster said) "unknown capabilities". On the other hand it depends what they are stealing. If they are making off with expensive tools that are the essence of your livelihood, you have a much better case for intervening then if they have your rake and shovel.
     
  19. Texas Gun Person

    Texas Gun Person Member

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    No. I see that that is just another time I can shoot the person who is in my house.

    Day or night. Not only at night... because night does not cover all of those crimes mentioned.


    Otherwise it would be massive crime waves during the day, and silent at night.

    That should not even need explaining... because I am having a hard time explaining it. :D Logic should prevail if you think about it.
     
  20. Blinken

    Blinken Member

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    So, it has been said before that you have to take in all of the surroundings and I agree to it. I say this just because this has happened to my uncle...he came home to someone running out the door with stuff...only it was his soon-to-be-ex-wife's friends helping her move out.
     
  21. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, you can, but that doesn't mean you will get away with it.

    You are apparently referring to the portion of Section 9.32, deadly force in defense of person that has come to be known as the "castle doctrine", because Section 9.42, deadly force in defense of property, does not address "shooting the person who is in your house."

    Texas penal code Section 9.32 establishes that the fact of an entry of an occupied habitation, etc., or attempt at same, that is made unlawfully and with force provides a presumption , if the actor believed that deadly force was necessary to protect himself or to prevent the commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery, that such belief was reasonable.

    Such a presumption is rebuttable.

    So, the first question is, did the perp enter the garage "with force"?

    The second is whether the home was occupied.

    Whether the perp was committing or attempting to commit one of the crimes listed hinges on whether there was anyone else in the house who should be there. If no, there was no one to be kidnapped, murdered, assaulted sexually, or robbed. Slight redundancy in the law, IMHO

    Finally, if the evidence does indeed show that you returned "seeing someone trying to leave with your goods" it would seem likely that your alleged "belief" that deadly force in defense of person was required would be judged not reasonable...

    So, it would be rather risky to conclude that you would be permitted to "shoot the person who is in your house" under that part of Texas law.

    We turn to Section 9.42, use of deadly force in defense of property.

    If the question is one of using deadly force to prevent someone "who is fleeing after committing burglary...from escaping with the property', the time of day would not matter. The operative clause would become "and he reasonably believes that the property cannot be protected by any other means."

    One might expect that to differ depending upon whether one lives in a rural county or in a residential area. If the latter, I wouldn't want to stake my continued rights to gun ownership on it, let alone my personal freedom.

    The author of that part of the statute has been quoted as saying that the law was not intended to legalize the shooting of thieves and burglars under usual circumsances and that the law would not have protected Joe Horn, who shot a couple of people at night. Horn was not indicted because a witness supported his claim that he fired to protect himself.

     
  22. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Depends.

    Are they the teenager from down the street who your wife asked to help move some boxes?
    Is it your daughter's new boyfriend?
    Is it a repairman called out to take a look at the water heater? Pest control?
    Or for that matter is it someone your wife is having an affair with?

    There is many people you don't know who may be in that position when you arrive home.


    Are they armed?
    Are you armed?

    Can you figure out who they are before making irrational decisions?
    Can you respond with force if they do turn out to be dangerous?
    Do they have a vehicle parked near the home? Do they have others with them?
    How are they acting? Are they stealing valuable items or moving misc things? Are they looking for something? Or are their hands full of valuables?


    There is not enough information in your scenario. There are plenty of occasions someone you do not know may have a legitimate reason to be there.
    Are you going to draw on an unarmed individual who may have a legitimate reason for being there? That is a felony assault.
     
  23. thebigc

    thebigc Member

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    i would probably ask them who the heck they are then proceede from there expecialy if i had a wife or kids whitch i dont if i lived alone like i do now i would just call the police

    most pepole will probably run away if you yell hey i called the police drop my stuff unless they are some kind of hardcore crazy criminal
     
  24. grubbylabs

    grubbylabs Member

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    What ever is in my garage is not worth some one else's life. I could not justify shooting some one else for stuff that insurance will replace. My house with my family inside is a different story.
     
  25. cleardiddion

    cleardiddion Member

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    Well in my case we have an attatched garage which leads directly into the house.
    Now, like many others I would just sit back and get their tag numbers and all that jazz if no one is inside.

    I mean, I've never had a day where I woke up and said 'Oh jeez, I'm gonna shoot someone today' and I hope I never do. Nothing in my garage that I'd wanna change that bit over.

    Totally different story if someone is inside. Not so much during the day since everyone runs about town and all that. However if someone is inside, often my little sister, there's no way in hell I'm gonna even give them a chance to enter the house. I agree in saying that a lot of people, like teenagers looking for a thrill and such are gonna be scurrying off as soon as they realize they're busted. I suppose it does change for the crazies, but no way for me to know for sure. I'm sure Murphey would be kool-aid manning through my plan from step one.
     
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