what is "limp wristing"?

[bobby68]

I know how to use the search function but there are far too many uses of the term that do not explain exactly what this means. Since i have just bought a new Glock and i have seen many warnings agains limp wristing, i am eager to know what it means.

any helpful explanation is appreciated.

Thankyou

 

[Marshall]

what is "limp wristing"

Well, assuming you don't mean being queer as a 3 dollar bill, it's not holding the gun strong enough and allowing the recoil of the gun to blow your wrist around instead of moving the whole arm while the wrist is stiff.

 

[Murphster]

To add a bit more to what Marshall said: to function properly, the slide needs for the frame to be fairly immobile for the recoil forces (yea, I know, this isn't very scientific) to fully force the slide back so that extraction, ejection and loading can take place. If you limp wrist, your arm acts like a shock absorber. preventing the slide from coming all the way back at the proper speed to do all those things that semi autos have to do.

 

[shermacman]

I have a friend who had a SIG .380. The gun was light enough that she had a tendency to not hold it firmly enough. When it fired, the gun would jerk up, the next round coming up from the magazine wouldn't rise fast enough to 'catch up' with the gun and the slide would slam into the round before it was in line with the chamber. FTF nearly every time. She sold it, has a Glock in .40 that she has to hold on to!

 

[pax]

People use the term limp-wristing to refer to a whole family of different gun handling errors. These errors result in the semi-auto handgun not having the firm platform that it needs in order to function well.

Here's a picture of a type of limp-wristing in action. Although her wrist isn't angled, you can see that her left hand has let go of the gun and that her right hand isn't holding the gun that firmly. It resulted in a stovepipe malf.

pax

 

[Sam]

Sorry folks but I have to disagree with all of you.

A 1911 can be sucessfully fired all day long with a thumb and trigger finger, weakest possible grip. If the pistol doesn't cycle, something is wrong with the pistol.

Sam

 

[dolanp]

If the recoil is allowed to blow the entire gun back instead of just the slide, it has a much higher chance of failing to extract or feed. The frame needs to be held steady.

 

[carebear]

Not real common in heavier all-steel guns, especially the full-sizers (thus the almost immune 1911).

It's more common with lighter guns in general because the weapon itself starts lacking the mass, if held loosely or with an unlocked wrist, to have the inertia and stability for the recoiling slide to work against. So you'll start to see it be a problem in the alloy guns, again usually the smaller ones.

Where it really seems to get to be a problem is with the polymer guns. I first saw it affecting people when Glocks started to catch on. Although as strong as the metal frames, polymer frames tend to flex a bit more, thus absorbing some of that vital recoil energy into the frame. Add into that an unlocked wrist and the whole gun can move enough to soak up recoil energy without providing a firm platform for the slide to recoil against.

99% of the time simply correcting the shooter's hold will fix the problem. I think it started to be recognized as a problem only because we had this sudden rush of lightweight guns that had less margin for shooter error.

A lot of self-taught shooters have horrible technique and succeed at all only by compensating with brute strength, size or some weird methods. When they go to teach someone (especially big guys teaching their bad habits to smaller women) it can be a nightmare of compounding problems.

 

[pax]

carebear ~

Good post.

pax

 

[Archie]

Complications...

The problem is as described above. A GI 1911, using issue 230 grain ammo and a 16 pound recoil spring, will function for 'most people'. It may be just a little uncertain for very 'soft' holding shooters and very 'hard' holding shooters will damage the frame over time by peening. But it will work most of the time and that is the important thing.

In cases where the shooter is uniformly unable to hold the pistol properly, a lighter recoil spring will cure the problem. But if fired by someone else, this may cause battering damage. People who shoot heavy loads and have developed 'death grip' holds generally find a heavier spring suitable. (Heavier springs can beat up the slide and frame on the closing cycle, so that's a bit of a trade-off, too.)

Light loads and or light grips do better with lighter springs. I've got a wadcutter 45 for target use. I use a light bullet and a light dose of Clays to send it off. That pistol has a 14 pound recoil spring. On the other hand, my 'duty' 45 has a 20 pound spring; I shoot hardball level loads through this old darling. Both guns work very well; I don't have problems with extraction or chambering and I haven't found any 'beating' wear on either pistol.

 

[dasmi]

I knew it! i rented a 1911 two weeks ago that kept failing to feed, and the shop owner told me I was limp wristing! I was not. I knew there was something wrong with that gun!

 

[bobby68]

Well, assuming you don't mean being queer as a 3 dollar bill

My first thought too

, it's not holding the gun strong enough and allowing the recoil of the gun to blow your wrist around instead of moving the whole arm while the wrist is stiff.

Is there a technique to avoiding this habit?

 

[jeff-10]

I have a BHP in 40S&W that a lot of people seem to limp wrist when firing it. It is a heavy all steel gun but a lot of my friends have problems with it.

 

[carebear]

it's not holding the gun strong enough and allowing the recoil of the gun to blow your wrist around instead of moving the whole arm while the wrist is stiff.

Is there a technique to avoiding this habit?

Yeah, hold your wrist firm.

Picture making a fist to punch, the hand is aligned with the arm, not canted in, out, up or down. Open the hand into a "vee". When you place the gun into that "vee", it should be in line with your forearm. If you can't operate the safety without moving the gun in your hand and if your trigger finger doesn't land on the trigger midway between the tip and first joint (middle of the pad) then the gun doesn't fit your hand properly. At that point you need to adjust the grip size if possible or choose a different gun (or change out parts but that gets more detailed).

The reason to fit the gun to your hand is so that when you tense the muscles in your forearm it makes your hand and forearm a single, aligned unit that won't flex when the weapon is fired. You can't do that if you have to hold the gun at an odd angle or shift it around to reach the controls. To increase the muscle strength you can use a squeeze ball or similar device.

So, anyway, under recoil the wrist should not bend or break in any direction the recoil impulse is instead transmitted straight through the forearm, through the (typically) straight, definitely tensed ( but not locked out) elbow and into through the shoulder into the body, letting the whole upper body's mass absorb the recoil as a unit.

That firm firing platform, at least through the elbow, is necessary for both repeated follow up shots, repeated natural point of aim and in this particular case, necessary to allow the gun to operate as it should.

 

[Sam]

Bring me your poor and lightweight and weak plastic framed pistols and a wad of cash.

For grins this afternoon I took the following to the range for "limp wrist" evals
Ruger mk1
P97
USP40
SIG 228
Glock 23
Glock 27
Llama XXII
Star BM
Star BKM
Beretta 1934
Jennings 22
Kahr PM9
XD9801

That covered every used auto in the shop and 2 that I borrowed. The only difficulty was the XD, I had to tape the Grip Safety down.
Every one worked fine with the 2 finger grip and now I have a boatload of dirty pistols to clean.
Still not buying limp wrist.

Sam

 

[bobby68]

Sam,

I'm new to the subject so i'm not sure how to understand your response.

Are you saying that you tested all of these pistols to determine that they were unaffected in being fired with a loose grip?

thank you for your input.

 

[carebear]

Sam,

I could very well be wrong. but I'm not sure why it would happen with ammo from the same box, in the exact same gun (and typically of the same or similar types in a general sense) when some of the new or inexperienced shooters would fire the weapon(s) but not when I did moments later if it was strictly a function problem.

I suspect you are unable to shoot so incorrectly as to cause the problem to occur. I can fire my 1911 all day with the two finger hold, but I can also (if I try) sissy up and make Glocks have stoppages. Maybe it's part of that strange confluence of factors.

All I know is I saw it happen year after year with perfectly functioning guns straight out of the box as well as with range guns with tens of thousands of rounds and it almost exclusively happened to shooters new to the polymer guns and/or shooting in general. Also that it was a trend widespread and remarkable enough to be noted and written up by numerous writers and trainers in the early nineties.

Those facts would point (to me at least) to it being more than a rash of "bad guns" and more to a design factor of them coupled with a certain type of shooter.

 

[Jammer Six]

Exactly so.

I chose my milspec precisely because it's almost immune to limp wristing, and everyone will have a limp wrist in the moments following their first gunshot wound.

Lightweight, limp-wrist prone guns are for optimist.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I have a BHP in 40S&W that a lot of people seem to limp wrist when firing it. It is a heavy all steel gun but a lot of my friends have problems with it.

I have that problem with my BHP .40. It jams all the time on me. I've had others shoot it and they have no problems so I ruled out the gun as the problem. I'm getting better with it and jams are much less often now but I can't figure out exactly what I'm doing wrong as I never have that problem with my other pistols. While it's still one of my favorite guns when it comes to looks and just the feel of it... I never carry it or leave it in my night stand because I don't trust it or I guess trust the way I know how to use it.

 

[Mr. Tettnanger]

Funny, I never "limp-wristed" any of my revolvers! ;^)
Seriously, get a firm grip on the handgun and practice, practice, practice. You will be fine.

Mr. Tettnanger

 

[grendelbane]

I have never been able to make my lightweight .38 Super Commander exhibit symptoms of limp wristing. Not even with light handloads.

 

[pax]

Lightweight, limp-wrist prone guns are for optimist.

Actually, lightweight, limp-wrist prone guns are for people who are learning to shoot.

The photo I put up is of a young girl (pre-teen) who is learning how to shoot. She needs a small gun because her hands are still small. She needs super-light loads because she and her parents believe she's not yet ready for heavier loads. That this makes her gun prone to limp-wrist malfs is not really a bad thing -- it is forcing her to learn to hold the gun correctly when she fires. In my book that's a Good Thing for a new shooter as long as she doesn't get discouraged while learning.

The thing to remember is that not all guns are defense guns and not all shooters are shooting for self defense.

pax

 

[pax]

Sam ~

I believe you were unable to make any of the guns malfunction when you shot them -- even though you were holding them with only two fingers.

The thing is, I have seen dozens of new shooters with stovepipes, FTEs, etc in guns that functioned flawlessly with the exact same ammo when handed to an experienced shooter.

Plainly there's something to this whole thing, or the guns would function just as well for the beginner as they do for the experienced.

I've also seen dozens of new shooters, when taught how to hold the gun correctly, whose stovepipes, FTEs, and other malfs simply vanished away never to return.

Plainly there's something to this whole thing, or fixing these folks' holds would not make any difference to the function of their guns.

pax

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Sorry folks but I have to disagree with all of you.

A 1911 can be sucessfully fired all day long with a thumb and trigger finger, weakest possible grip. If the pistol doesn't cycle, something is wrong with the pistol.

Sam

Agreed, I’ve shot SIG’s Walthers and HK’s intentionally as “limp wrist-ed†as I possibly could and yet to have a single jam or FTF yet a Glock I was issued for duty jammed all day long, which was quickly blamed on my limp wristing, despite the fact I had such a grip on the gun by the end of the day the instructor began telling me that I was hold it too tight.

So which is it?

Holding it too loose or too tight?

I find it a bit odd that a gun was built which requires the shoot to squeeze it tight enough for it to work properly.

What is required? Are you squeezing it hard enough to bring physical parts into proper alignment for function or something?

What a POS, I carry a Glock 22 for duty and I absolutely hate the blasted thing and I let the brass know it every chance I get, they told me the only reason we carry it is price, if we had the money we’d be carrying SIGs.

I’ve owned about 14 SIGs over the past 12 years presently I own 9.

I’ve had the unfortunate opportunity to be issued Glocks by 3 different department in the past 10 years and every time we ALWAYS have had problems with them, most recently we had to send back 8 brand new Glock 22’s because everytime you shot them the mags would fly out the bottom of the gun, Glock sent us new mags to try with the same results in the end they had to replace all 8 guns but never adequately explained why it was happening.

“Limp wristing†is a quasi-technical term used loosely to explain away any number of problems a substandard gun may experience. Some folk’s say the term was coined during the days of the 1911 but funny my father shot competition (1970’s and 1980’s) almost weekly when I was growing up with 1911’s and Smith revolvers and I’d never heard of it till the Glock showed up.

Nice to know the lowest bidder and not the best manufacture made your duty weapon.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

I agree with PAX, limpwristing is a catch-all for nearly any FTF or FTE that may happen on the range.

I was at a shop, a guy bought a used polymer gun, had the NICS check come back and then went onto the range with his first box of ammo. His gun kept FTE, he walked inside and told his salesperson "This gun keeps jamming". The employee said, "You are limp wisting, you need to hold your wrist stiff". The guy went inside, same thing happened. He walks back inside, starting to get upset. Well, this time the employee walks onto the range and loads up a magazine...pulls the trigger and FTE. Clears it, pulls the trigger again and another FTE. The employee boxes up the gun, walks in to the owner and tells him. The owner goes to the customer and says "Show me what you like in the store and we'll make you happy". The guy ended up with new Glock, sold at a loss, but the owner kept his name good.

The owner handled the situation how you are supposed to. Unfortunately, the employee was all to willing to term any issue as a user issue and not a gun issue.