what is the best technique for under 5-yards?

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Returning to Bill Jordan. One of the points he made in a discussion we had was that one’s choice of a handgun gun could dictate technique. When held well below eye level a pistol rapidly ejecting hot brass and throwing it backward and upward can in his words be a “dangerous distraction.” At shoulder level this should be much less so.

Hopefully pistols vs. revolvers won’t become an issue here, I just point this out as a consideration.

In another post someone suggested there was a connection between the cowboy quick-draw game and waist level shooting in the law enforcement community. Not so, as the cowboy game dates from the middle 1950’s where the technique was incorporated into FBI training during the late 1930’s – largely because of the efforts made by Ed. McGivern. Anyone who is interested in seeing what can be done at close range with a revolver should buy a copy of his dated-but-still-good book, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. Be sure to get a reprint, not one of the original editions which can go for well over $100.
 
Under 5 yards and the target continues to close by the time you get the gun into the ready position with your arms extended the target can probably put his hands on the gun. Partial presentation and firing while stepping back seems appropriate.

Now, if the target isn't advancing or is stationary, and you already have your weapon in ready, proceed as normal - ask for compliance and take the shot if needed.
 
The old saw is "3 yards, 3 shots, 3 seconds." Often enough that's the way a defensive shooting goes, which is why many of them fall into those parameters. IMHO it's critical to start training for defensive shooting at close range, since it's more likely that's where an attack will happen. See http://shivworks.com/?page_id=881 for some background, start learning a four-count draw stroke and shooting from retention (Count 2)... and get some training, soon.

4 Count Draw Stroke - http://gomez-training.com/articles/articles-the-combative-drawstroke/
 
I just did some backyard verification on my draw stroke against the slide on my swing set from 3 yards in the dark.

Yah, count one goes to chest high from 3:30 to clear my two cover garments - long sleeve shirt over a short sleeved shirt because it's chilly, OWB. I think count one is not so long if in a neat uniform or a nicely tucked in shirt.

The XS dot on my LCR was strutting it's stuff even without a push out. I might be slow but at least I'm confident.
 
There is no such thing as the best anything. as for book recommendations on this topic try the following:
No Second Winner, by Bill Jordan
Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back, by Rex Applegate
Stressfire, by Massad Ayoob
Sharpening the Warriors Edge, by Bruce Siddle
Surgical Speed Shooting, by Andy Stafford
Target Focused Shooting, by Louis Chiodo
Shooting to live, by W.E. fairbairn
 
So, yah. I'm still here and I'm still enamored with this thread, most likely because the "under five yards" scenario is the space that I fear most but also the place which I work hardest at preparing for - The Emergency.

I have four earlier comments that I would like to expound upon. One by Owen Sparks, one by Old Fuff, one by 9mmepiphany, and one by Fred Fuller.

Owen Sparks
this idea of fighting settles well with me
i am not a gunfighter
i am not even a fighter
i will, however, use weapons if given a rancid choice

Old Fluff
we should be well aware of the dangers
when firing from the top of count two
a too close revolver could give you a blurry cut
or catch your clothes on fire

9mmepiphany
this speed rock thing
ouch
as far as i can tell
it's like being put down
to the ground
ouch

Fred Fuller
the ever present wise Grandfather
leads us to the
greatest street fighter
of modern times
 
If you stop the first link at :20, you'll see some textbook stuff Cruise does with his elbow tucked into his obliques to steady the arm after he rocks the weapon up, and his right leg unlocked and bent so he can drive his upper body back into a stable position while his left arm holds the bad guy's gun.
Keeping his knees bent and his back straight so he can stay in a strong ready position is crucial physiology and training for this kind of thing.

it's not just a simple draw and shoot at close quarters.

The collateral training vid has some interesting stuff in it too, pertaining to this topic.
 
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Apparently I just don't understand the Speed Rock. Every example I've ever observed or had a conversation about involved bending, rocking the spine backwards to get the gun up. This bending backwards is antithetical to any notion of self defense that I have every learned from contact ball games to dojo. Dodging a blow is one thing but purposely setting oneself off balance is unwise. All I saw in the video was a fast draw. Please feel free to clear up my misunderstandings.

Having said that, wheelgunslinger's observations of body mechanics in the video are spot on. Now about the video....

A righty has two BGs at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock, knowing that the 12 o'clock is for sure a righty, and he takes them on from 6 o'clock? Wow! If it were my fight I'm going to be at 9 o'clock and ticking before SHTF - well that's the plan, anyway.
 
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Doghandler said:
This bending backwards is antithetical to any notion of self defense that I have every learned from contact ball games to dojo. Dodging a blow is one thing but purposely setting oneself off balance is unwise.
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Are you familiar with Michael Janich's MBC's technique of Passing the {on-coming} Blade. You are leaning out of the arc of a slashing blade (Zone 1) if you are unable to block. It is a similar movement. You'll also see it in International Football

All I saw in the video was a fast draw. Please feel free to clear up my misunderstandings.
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If you stop the first clip at 0:21 or the second clip between 1:05-1:06, you can see that Cruise leans backwards and pivots the muzzle, to the horizontal, as soon as it clears the holster...and just before driving it forward. Bear in mind that he is wearing the holster well behind the hip in a canted holster, yet he clearly isn't leaning forward and is a bit behind a vertical plane extending through his hips.

A righty has two BGs at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock, knowing that the 12 o'clock is for sure a righty, and he takes them on from 6 o'clock? Wow! If it were my fight I'm going to be at 9 o'clock and ticking before SHTF - well that's the plan, anyway.
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Once BG #1 has his gun pointing at you, your ability to re-position is severely limited. Action only beats reaction when your action is direct, the oft quoted advice to Move Off the X is part of the reaction response
 
Within 15 yards I don't focus on my sights - I focus on the aimpoint where I want my bullet to land on the target. I still "see" my sights but I don't have a hard focus on the front sight. The front sight is blurry but I have no problem placing my bullets where I'm looking.

Beyond 15 yards I revert to a traditional hard front sight focus.

It's as simple as pointing your finger at somebody. You don't focus on the tip of your finger - you focus on what you're pointing at and your finger naturally goes right there.

Same concept when you or your target is moving. You can fluidly "track" the target and keep your fingertip pointing at it.

I've found this technique allows me to place my shots accurately out to about 15 yards. Farther distance requires more precision. Distance buys me time to focus on my front sight and align the sights.
 
Ok, I think I'm clear on the speed rock thanks to Mr. epiphany.

Now back to the video. At about :20 sec good guy has 12 o'clock bad guy's weapon pointed toward 3 o'clock bad guy. Now good guy brings the arm and gun back across his body. I don't like this.

It goes against momentum. Why would one not follow this momentum? We step into the parry/grab in a bladed manner and at the same time we are at count one of the draw. By count two 3 o'clock bad guy, which now should be closer to good guy's 12 o'clock, has two guns pointed at him so he get's it first. Now we deal with briefcase guy.

All right. Tell me what's wrong with this scenario.
 
You can always use your left hand to fend off the opponent if he gets too close, but then since your hand and arm are out there, you really need to be careful not to shoot it.
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You may think so, but get a buddy and do some realistic force on force scenarios. I did and boy did it open my eyes. I used a glock airsoft pistol and my usual carry gear. We ran some really aggressive maneuvers (really aggressive because that's how real life is). We both ended up a little bruised and bleeding...but we both learned quite a bit.

Like 9mm said, if they are under 15 feet, you may be best served by not going for your gun...and if you do, you better hope you've practiced drawing and firing on the move at a moving target.

People are quick. A human being can out run a drag racer for the first five yards.
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Yep. Do the math to get a really good mental picture. An average human (even overweight and old) can advance on you anywhere from 10-14 feet per second. Factor in youth and agility and it gets downright scary.
 
I've reviewed the video from a slightly different camera angle, maybe a different take even, and it looks like from that angle anyway, that Cruise's character did not sweep his body with the BG's gun. It was pointed toward the ground and the BG actually dropped the gun. I'm still uneasy, though, about not using the opportunity to take out the other BG when you already have control of the first BG's weapon.
 
Doghandler said:
Now good guy brings the arm and gun back across his body. I don't like this.

It goes against momentum. Why would one not follow this momentum?
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It isn't a grab, it is sweeping the gun aside. Cruise's movement actually follows the natural movement of his body. It is twisting clockwise to sweep and draw his gun, then releasing counter-clockwise to bring the muzzle to bear

We step into the parry/grab in a bladed manner and at the same time we are at count one of the draw. By count two 3 o'clock bad guy, which now should be closer to good guy's 12 o'clock, has two guns pointed at him so he get's it first. Now we deal with briefcase guy.

All right. Tell me what's wrong with this scenario.

...I'm still uneasy, though, about not using the opportunity to take out the other guy when you already have control of the first guys weapon.
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But you don't have control. You really don't want to be fighting with someone over control of a gun on his hand. Having a hold/grip is a false sense of control. If you tighten your grip, you are at a stand-off and he has as much control as you do.

You are the aggressor as soon as you sweep the first guy's gun out of your face...he is the primary threat. The other guy doesn't have his gun out yet and is now reacting to your action. He needs to first identify what is happening, decide on a course of action, implement it, identify his target, gain a sight picture and trigger the shot. In that time, you've finished with the first guy and can engage the second.

any notion of self defense that I have every learned from contact ball games to dojo. Dodging a blow is one thing but purposely setting oneself off balance is unwise.
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I'm going to hazard a guess that much of your training has been in the hard styles as opposed to the soft ones
 
Nothing beats Practice, Practice, Practice. I've watched videos on Youtube, read posts here and read descriptions in books but I learned more in one afternoon running such drills with the aid of a shot timer and the watchful eye of Al Thompson than I have learned collectively from all other sources. That session taught me that I MUST find an alternative to the slow fire, no holster draw allowed range I normally go to. But finding such a venue around here is not easy.

The other lesson I learned that day is that finding the front sight and getting good alignment happens a lot faster than I thought it would. Al does it faster than me but by the time we were finished I had knocked more than half a second off my first shot times. So listen to Al, he can back up what he is saying and he is a pretty decent guy.
 
I agree with the theory of "Don't aim, SHOOT!" at close range.

But remember, many of those bulletholes you see in the floor and the ceiling and the walls and the partitions at the range are probably in some way related to people "practicing" this technique.

Please don't tear up the range, and please find a safe place to practice your live fire of the sightless aiming method.

In an actual gunfight, there is a lawyer attached to each one of those bullets. Any that don't land in the bad buy must be accounted for.

I like to practice with Airsoft in the house.

AirsoftGlockcomparisonlarger.jpg
 
Before you can even attempt to shoot accurately at close range, you need to develop correct trigger control.

The distance, or lack of, to your target, doesn't invalidate this skill
 
9mmepiphany said:
It isn't a grab, it is sweeping the gun aside. Cruise's movement actually follows the natural movement of his body. It is twisting clockwise to sweep and draw his gun, then releasing counter-clockwise to bring the muzzle to bear


But you don't have control. You really don't want to be fighting with someone over control of a gun on his hand. Having a hold/grip is a false sense of control. If you tighten your grip, you are at a stand-off and he has as much control as you do.

You are the aggressor as soon as you sweep the first guy's gun out of your face...he is the primary threat. The other guy doesn't have his gun out yet and is now reacting to your action. He needs to first identify what is happening, decide on a course of action, implement it, identify his target, gain a sight picture and trigger the shot. In that time, you've finished with the first guy and can engage the second.


I'm going to hazard a guess that much of your training has been in the hard styles as opposed to the soft ones
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My actual dojo training was at a Kenpo dojo in Kansas City, Mo. on Broadway in the early '80s. I think it's still there. The single best piece of knowledge that I learned there was that, all things being equal or unequal the smart fighter will win. This is after having my but handed to me by older, slower, more experienced and even female opponents. I haven't touched a body bag since probably around 1990. These days I am mostly just 'ghost dancing' in the basement. Yah, I could certainly use some shivworks or similar FOF training but so far it doesn't seem to show up in my budget. But for now, at least, my sidearm work is incorporated into my self defense repertoire from whatever I have gleaned over the years from various sources including books, videos, workshops and tips from friends and acquaintances and GASP! :what: the Internet! :what:. I remain the judge as to weather this information can be a useful addition to my repertoire, to my philosophy of self-defense.

Now back to the video commentary. Yes, Mr. 9mm I do not want to be in a fight for control of somebody else's weapon but within a circumstance where SA and evasion has failed, or when evasion is not an option because I must choose to defend the mine part of me and mine, I will reserve, in accordance with what is good, proper, and just, the option of taking control of the arm that wields the weapon against us.
 
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Taking control and grabbing are not the same thing...but it is more a philosophical difference between external and internal martial arts

I liken it to fencing.

You can use a gross movement (the grab) and push the incoming blade well clear of your body, or you can use a quick displacement and cause the blade to just miss. The initial defensive result is the same...a miss. But the gross movement takes more commitment (all or nothing) and slows followup movements.

It is the difference between a sabre or broadsword and a katana or scimitar
 
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