What progressive press has a quick die change?

[GW Staar]

Nothing wrong with the 550 unless you want to add a bullet feeder die and a lockout die to your pistol tool heads....even 5 stations aren't enough sometimes and on the venerable 550 you are stuck with only 4. Even on a 5 station press you have to pick 2 out of three. Lockout die, Bullet Feed Die, or a separate crimp die. Then what if you decide you want auto-advance.....time for a new press.

At least with the RCBS offering you have the option to start with a 5 station manual-advance model, which can be upgraded to the full auto-advance version for just the cost of a $105 kit. The fastest, safest primer system and fastest caliber change on the market is a bonus.

I'm afraid Peter Eick is to blame for me becoming a Pro 2000 fan. I read his review after loading 150,000 rounds and decided on one over the runnerup 650. Haven't been sorry.

 

[MoreIsLess]

I suspect you are probably in the minority of those who would prefer an RCBS press over a Dillon

 

[cfullgraf]

In my opinion, one can choose the progressive whose color best matches the decor in his reloading room and it will serve him well.

They all are good, they all make good ammunition. Each has some features different than the others that peak the interest of the reloader.

 

[TennJed]

I suspect you are probably in the minority of those who would prefer an RCBS press over a Dillon

What makes RCBS less preferred than Dillon by most people

 

[jmorris]

That's a real option for Lee presses, but many of us can't afford multiple Dillon presses like you have....count your blessings!

I know diddly squat about 1050's. One bolt to change the tool head is obviously not much of a hurdle. Explain to us what else is involved. How much time does it take to change Primer size, case & bullet feeders, powder charge, etc.?

BTW, do you do more than one caliber on your 1050? (knowing that you have several presses) If so, how often do you change calibers on it? And how long does it take?

Dealer cost on a 1050 is $1300, dealer cost on an LNL is $325 so 4 LNL's cost the same as one 1050.

The reason I generally have two of everything is so I never have to change primer sizes, so I can't really say how long that takes.

To swap the case feeder takes maybe 15 seconds, the collator wheel is held in by gravity so lift out one and drop in the other. You have to snap out the case feed tube and swap the caliber specific adapter but again thats tool free.

For the .223 I use the stock tool head with a KISS bullet feeder and for 9mm I use the GSI feeder that is the entire tool head. The powder measures stay on the heads so you unhook the failsafe rod (hair pin) undo the center bolt and the screw holding the "ratchet" on the tool head and lift it off. A swap of the shell plate takes backing off four socket head set screws.

I generally don't swap my progressives around but my computer controlled 1050 project made me move from loading 9 on a 650 to the 1050, before the swap I loaded up a 5 gallon bucket of 223, so I wouldn't need to swap back anytime soon. I would guess it takes me 10 min or so to swap but could be done in half the time if you were timed like a pit crew.

None of the progressives can beat my turret presses though. I can swap from 45 acp to 308 to 458 socom, all three in under 1 second.

 

[GW Staar]

I suspect you are probably in the minority of those who would prefer an RCBS press over a Dillon

I suspect you are right. I also suspect the we would be a much bigger minority if people bought presses after trying them out for a month first....including caliber changes....like I did. Other than caliber changes they are really very similar...excepting the 650's necessary case loader and RCBS's improved safe and fast primer system...and RCBS's fewer moving parts to keep in sync. Still it's hard for many not to go with the most popular movements of the time. I think they feel safer...and that's ok with me.

trying them out for a month first....including caliber changes....like I did

Actually that isn't perfectly accurate. I did get to play with a 650 for a while, but I didn't have a Pro 2000 to try. I read Eick's great review on the Pro 2000, and I realized that the things that bugged me about the 650 were simplified on the Pro 2000. I liked the case feeder not available on the Pro 2000, but I also felt a bullet feeder would nicely take it's place, and I could have a faster primer system, easier caliber changes and a cast iron press. So in truth I took some risk. But it was good choice for my style of reloading.

Like Eick, I will be happy with it until a 6 station press replacement comes out. Do like the 1050, but only Jmorris style...multiple presses.....and I can't do that and stay married.

 

[Legion489]

Well others have expressed an opinion about the junk pot metal Lee LM, so I won't say anything about it other than it doesn't make a good boat anchor either, although it is slightly useful for that, which makes it much better for that then it does as a reloading press.

The Dillon 550 (which has the same MSRP as the junk Lee LM) can change tool heads in about 30 seconds, is extremely high quality, works amazingly well and Dillon actually stands behind their warranty, which is more than you can say about any Lee progressive presses of any kind.

True, changing out a Dillon 550 primer feeder from large to small is a minor pain, but as was pointed out, simply buying a complete primer feeder to use in the other size makes this quick and fairly easy. Some people, like Mr. Ken Waters, who wrote "Pet Loads" for HANDLOADER MAG never primed on the press, of any kind, preferring to primer separately.

As to having to change out powder measures, why? Simply buy a different powder measure. The Lee Disk Measures (regular or Pro model) work fine (usually, anyway. Mine always have. The Perfect Powder Measure normally leaks like a sieve. The one I bought does. Load five .223s or.308s and fill the hopper again as it all the powder leaked out. The non-US gun mags actually tell the truth about ALL this stuff as they don't rely on junk product ads to keep them going) and are cheap enough to buy several. Good used powder measures can be picked up now and then, and being an older model does not keep them from throwing perfectly good weights.

True, you might be forced to buy a new powder through die, like the Lee PTD to use the Lee disk measures, but again, so what?

I also fail to understand why anyone would need to remove the sizer die when loading cases that have already been resized. It doesn't hurt them to be resized again, and if it really bothers you, just put the case in the next station, which seems much easier than unscrewing and resetting the die every time.

When looking to buy a new item, try looking at what people who actually USE their stuff use and buy. Want an action pistol? What do the better/top IPSC and IDPA shooters use? Want a long range hunting handgun? What do the Sil. shooters use? Want a hunting shotgun? What do the duck hunters who hunt every day of the season use? None of them will use junk.

Want a good reloading press? What do the top IPSC and IDPA shooters use? What does the US Palma Team use? What does the Dutch IPSC national group (getting ANY reloading supplies like presses, primers and powder is harder there than getting a NYC carry permit is for the sheeple) use? OK, this one is a trick question, the answer to all of them is Dillon! Yes, the US Palma Team and the Dutch IPSC Club use Dillon 550Bs, and every top IPSC shooter uses either a 550B, 650 or 1050. None of them uses cheap pot metal junk because their reloads need to work, the first time, every time.

It is quite possible that the RCBS Pro-2000 is as good or even better, I don't know as I haven't used one, but I own a Dillon 550 and have never regretted that for one moment. True, there are times I wish I had five, six or even more stations, but I live with it.

 

[Magnum Shooter]

I bought my Dillon XL 650 about 18years ago, and I have never been sorry. Caliber changes take me about 5 minutes, including time to clean the press and change primer sizes. I did purchase a complete primer change so it is a matter of just 2 cap screws and it’s changed. Frankly, I don’t see what the urgency to change calibers in 30 seconds flat is all about anyway. Although I can load 1000 rounds an hour I rarely do. A more comfortable 600 rounds is my usual production rate. Dillon’s customer support is legendary, in fact so good that the others (except Lee) had to improve to remain competitive. On top of that most Dillon press models have been in production for a long long time. Yes there are cheaper progressive presses but, you will only need to buy it once in your life.

 

[jmorris]

Do like the 1050, but only Jmorris style...multiple presses.....and I can't do that and stay married.

I will now take this time to thank my wife for getting me several of my presses as gifts.

 

[cfullgraf]

I also fail to understand why anyone would need to remove the sizer die when loading cases that have already been resized. It doesn't hurt them to be resized again, and if it really bothers you, just put the case in the next station, which seems much easier than unscrewing and resetting the die every time.

One of the many things that swayed me towards a Hornady L-N-L versus the Dillon 650 was the individual placement of dies. I could load up what ever dies I needed for the task at hand.

Since I prefer to clean cases after resizing and I prefer how the expander die expands the case mouth versus a PDX expander, I do not need, or want to run the case through the resizing die a second time. (I also prefer to prime off the press versus struggling with the press mounted unit. Primer size changes are a snap and I never feed a bad seated primer to the powder charge station)

I find virtually of my "stoppages" during a progressive run were during resizing or priming. Since I decoupled resizing from loading, not any more.

By not sizing during reloading, my loading rates are faster with fewer problems. I get to concentrate on the highest risk aspect of reloading without the resizing distractions.

But, I could do this as well on a Dillon by screwing out the un-needed die(s). That takes all of two or three seconds.

It works for me, it does not work for everyone.

 

[EddieNFL]

By not sizing during reloading, my loading rates are faster with fewer problems.

How does adding an operation decrease production time?

 

[cfullgraf]

How does adding an operation decrease production time?

I find that if I compare the time to just reload on the progressive versus resizing and reloading at the same time, the time spent is less when I just reload.

When resizing, priming and reloading, I have many more stoppages or jams in the process that make me spend time fixing.

When just reloading, almost no stoppages.

Finally, when I look at my production rates, I look at everything. Set up time, resupply components time, clean up time, storing cartridges away time and so forth. When you add in all the non-productive time, production rates go down and the actual time stroking the press handle is just a fraction. Of course, there are things that vary these times, but typically for my reloading sessions, I will spend an evening reloading 500 or 600 cartridges but only an hour or so is actually loading. This is done with prepped cartridges that have been stored away.

Also, I find it is easy to do small batches on the progressive with my process. Sometime I charge on the press, sometimes I charge off press and just seat and crimp on the progressive. I prefer to crimp separately from seating so I eliminate some case handling.

I resize and prep cases shortly after shooting then store the prepped cases away for a future reloading session. Small batches of resizing go quick, 5 minutes or less per hundred including installing dies.

I do not need the ultimate volume and I enjoy time at the reloading bench, so it works for me.

P.S. On a single stage press, with prepped cases, I can flip on the lights in the reloading room and an hour later flip them off with 100 cartridges loaded and stored away and everything else stored back away. Been loading at this rate for decades.

 

[GW Staar]

I will now take this time to thank my wife for getting me several of my presses as gifts.

LOL!!!! You'll have to give the young unmarried guys some tips on finding & catching good and generous (and rich can't hurt) women!

 

[jmorris]

How does adding an operation decrease production time?

It's because his machine does not to the job right and when you stop your average speed goes to zero. Same way a trip to the store would be faster on foot if your car breaks down.

LOL!!!! You'll have to give the young unmarried guys some tips on finding & catching good and generous (and rich can't hurt) women!

I'm afraid I can't help you there.

 

[cfullgraf]

It's because his machine does not to the job right and when you stop your average speed goes to zero. Same way a trip to the store would be faster on foot if your car breaks down.

Nothing broken or out of adjustment. With small production runs, 100 to 500 cases, and frequent cartridge changes, I load 12 or 13 different cartridges on the progressive, it is counter productive to spend time dialing in the machine when the set up will be upset in a couple hours or so.

Also, no one makes a press for loading new, primed cases. Oh wait, they do, just leave out the resizing die and don't fill the primer tubes.

 

[jmorris]

I have never had new primed cases to load but if your changing a lot with small runs I can see your point, why I generally have two progressives so one loads small primer rounds and the other stays large. Your short run setup is still going to be a lot faster than the turret presses I use, even if not in "full progressive mode.

 

[EddieNFL]

I will now take this time to thank my wife for getting me several of my presses as gifts.

It pays to marry well. My wife doesn't buy me anything shooting/loading related, but does turn a very blind eye when the bills arrive.

It's because his machine does not to the job right and when you stop your average speed goes to zero.

Guess I'm old fashioned. I correct the problem or find a better tool.

 

[cfullgraf]

Your short run setup is still going to be a lot faster than the turret presses I use, even if not in "full progressive mode.

One jam/stoppage/miss fed primer will erase any potential time savings when operating in "full progressive" mode for a small production run.

I reload more ammunition on the progressive than I can shoot, so my limiting process works just fine for me. Plus, i have some upside if i want.

When I look at my production rates, I look at the entire time from entering the reloading room to exiting and flipping off the lights. The actual time stroking the press handle is not much of that total time.

i spent much of my working career troubleshooting, redesigning, starting up, and repairing high speed consumer goods production equipment. Been there, done that with equipment that sometimes performs as advertised. I really do not care to put up with similar problems in retirement if I can find a suitable alternate. I enjoy reloading.

I present an alternative method of operating a progressive that might lower the fear factor for the new progressive user. My method works for me but I do not expect it to work for all.

 

[jmorris]

When I look at my production rates, I look at the entire time from entering the reloading room to exiting and flipping off the lights. The actual time stroking the press handle is not much of that total time.

That, you and I agree 100% on. That is the reason I have built so many machines that do the work for me. Like Eddie states, "better tool", if you have one, two or three that work on tasks while you complete another your done in no time.

 

[cfullgraf]

That, you and I agree 100% on. That is the reason I have built so many machines that do the work for me. Like Eddie states, "better tool", if you have one, two or three that work on tasks while you complete another your done in no time.

Agreed!

And your array of machines are impressive.

It comes down to what your objectives are that determines what better "tools" you develop. Ultimate production rate is not one of mine.

While I have discarded some of my progressive pieces/parts, I have also machined an array of powder drop tubes that allows me to use only one powder drop die without adjusting it.

 

[GW Staar]

Agreed!

While I have discarded some of my progressive pieces/parts, I have also machined an array of powder drop tubes that allows me to use only one powder drop die without adjusting it.

Powder drop tubes? Interesting! Are you referring to custom-made pistol case expanders? or something else?

Care to enlighten a little more?

That, you and I agree 100% on. That is the reason I have built so many machines that do the work for me. Like Eddie states, "better tool", if you have one, two or three that work on tasks while you complete another your done in no time.

I'm of the same mind set, but much more limited in resources. I search out bottlenecks, and potential or historical production stoppers, and when I'm done the goal is to have a process that works without interruption. Interruptions are the enemy of all reloaders. Anything that stops the process and makes you restart later, unless you have a photographic memory, creates possibilities for more to go wrong. Murphyisms. I hate Murphyisms.

We all know that in reloading, the most important thing to learn, is how to pay attention to details. Using only one progressive, as I do, to load many calibers, again as I do, means there's more details to pay attention to....more often. So simplicity of operation is my #1 goal. It affected my choice of press, my mods to it, and the design of the accessories I bought, modded, and made for it. That's the other way. (the one press way) Jmorris's way is better, if you have the time, room, and money. HOWEVER.....I shamelessly copy his ideas when ever I can. When ever I post details on a new project of mine, More often than not, a jmorris idea, or one based on one, is behind it. I modified my Hornady Bullet feeder (adding clear tube and a stop switch based on his ideas. I built a simple case feeder for my Pro 2000 after studying his ideas and adapting. And I'm not done yet ... (from the gallery of the jmorris fan club!)

 

[cfullgraf]

Powder drop tubes? Interesting! Are you referring to custom-made pistol case expanders? or something else?

Care to enlighten a little more?

Yes, these are custom made drop tubes for use in the Hornady powder die. The length of each drop tube is lengthened or shortened so that the powder die does not require adjustment, or additional powder dies are not needed.

Since I resize and expand the case mouth at a different time, my drop tubes do not expand the mouth. But, expander sections could be easily machined into the the drop tubes.

The design could easily be adapted to a system that operated similarly but has different dimmensions.

For a picture and more information, check the attached link in the "Things you have invented thread."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8008584&postcount=954

 

[newbuckeye]

I was going to start a new thread asking about the progressive presses, but I think everything I need is right here....Thanks!

 

[GW Staar]

I was going to start a new thread asking about the progressive presses, but I think everything I need is right here....Thanks!

You're welcome (from all of us) But keep reading....

After Newbuckeye's post I decided to go back and read the whole thread again (didn't know it was that good), as if I was new to the progressive scene. (which I was almost 4 years ago) Some interesting patterns came out. First there is the why and how we reload....let me count the ways. Then there's the realization that some of that results from the press we bought, while some of it helped determine the press we bought.

For example jmorris buys two of everything so he doesn't have to change primer size. I bought mine because wanting to reload many calibers, and being limited to one press, ease in changing primer size was much more important. That operation is one screw simpler than changing tool heads on his 1050. 10 seconds is being generous. Would I rather have two presses? Of course....I'd rather have 10 powder measures too. But two Uniflows (or Hornady P.M's) with mics (one for each drum size) can accomplish the same work as many.

cfullgraf isn't alone as one who primes off his press. Many do. NOTHING is worse than to be cranking in full production, when a military case with a crimp remnant suddenly stops it cold. Been there done that. But I wasn't about to go back to hand priming with that super sweet APS system in my pres. After 2 months research, and an ongoing relationship with an RCBS R&D engineer viva email, it was decided that reaming pockets are a more "sure" procedure than swaging....don't care whose swager it is. Not all brass swages well, especially old hard brass. About that time RCBS introduced an improved reamer for their Trim Mate. Boy does it work well....and no more over done bevels. Then a year later RCBS added a Dillon-like bench swager to their line up. Sigh! Yes I bought one....and yes I like it for most brass. Reamer is still king though, for ancient RC brass.

Then there's the high primers. A pocket reamer in conjunction with a pocket uniformer and a shell plate primer stop, does wonders for eliminating high primers, and any desire to go back to hand priming except for working up new loads on the single stage press.

My goal starting out with a progressive, was to eventually be able to production load every thing on it. I know, lofty, but I'm getting really close.

One more path I want to talk about and then I'll shut up. I'm older than a lot of you. Though I have 4 decades of experience loading single station, At not even quite 4 years, I consider myself a beginner at progressive loading....and I've changed my mind on the value of case and bullet loaders. Not the way you'd think. I'm more like cfullgraf on this one. I don't race...I don't even like to race .... never did. BUT feeders have been pushed a tools to speed hand loading toward "factory" speeds. IMO, that's a good way to invite disaster. Using my Hornady bullet feeder and home built case feeder (a project that started as a personal challenge), I found that can load more leisurely and safely and still fast enough to leave turrets in the dust. All the busywork is handled while my senses can focus on quality, and safety. That's the real beauty of feeders.

So do I wish I bought a press with expensive feeder options? Let's see, I did spend a bit on the Hornady bullet feeder.....but the home-bilt case feeder cost less than $50 and works fine with 9mm up to .308...so far. And I have a primer system to kill for. So...I think not.

 

[cfullgraf]

GW Staar, you have summed things up pretty well.