What would you do?

[chaim]

OK, I am pretty loyal to my friends. I have this friend I have known since high school who can be an idiot sometimes and quite the hot head. Well, he's finally done it and gotten into trouble, though this time it isn't really his fault.

He was at the bar where he works the other day (Wen night) and some guys came in at closing (my friend was there drinking after he got off work). The bartender told them they were closing. The guys got abusive. The bar tender asked them to leave. During this my friend was minding his business when one of these guys noticed him. The guy remembered my friend from HS and accused him of beating up his cousin back then (15-17 years ago). He proceeded to try to start a fight with my friend. He finally (after some verbal escalation) hit my friend. My friend hit him back immediately dropping him.

This is where the real trouble started. One of the guy's friends then attacked my friend, strangling him until he passed out and then kicking him while he was passed out (he was unconscious for around 15 minutes according to the witnesses). Anyway, Howard County police being what they are, they refused to make an arrest ("it was "only" a bar fight" ). All the witnesses felt that the guy was trying to kill my friend.

Anyway, my friend filed a complaint with the police (one against the officers for not making an arrest, and another a criminal complaint against his attackers). Anyway, when he meets with the prosecutor later this week to determine what charges are appropriate the commissioner suspects the final charges may be attempted murder (against the strangler).

Here is the current problem. The guy turns out to be a real piece of work (the police sgt that took the complaint and the court commissioner through whom my friend made out the charges both knew who this guy is and suggested that my friend may be in danger for filing charges). He is on parole and has violated it through these charges. He has a long history of violence and is apparently very involved in the drug trade.

There is some chance according to the court commissioner and the cops that with this guy now facing long jail time (violation of parole, previous sentence finished out, and now new jail time for at least felony assult and possibly attempted murder) he is a real danger. He has nothing to lose and will see my friend as responsible (for filing charges).

Anyway, this friend is certainly in danger and normally I might lend him a gun, but he is a major hothead (he is talking about camping out in front of the guy's house to "help" the police catch him ). He is only talking about using a cell phone to call the cops and concealment to keep from being noticed, but this is stupid, and maybe dangerous. I don't want him doing something stupid in the name of self defense, or worse, "proactive" defense, while using my gun. However, he is in danger. I suggested a long gun (isn't really suitable to concealment and carry, HD only, so he is less likely to do something stupid). I also suggested pepper spray so he has something away from home and I suggested starting the process to apply for a CCW license (you never know, in MD it is unlikely but with a bonafide threat, maybe...) in case he does get a handgun so at least he will be legal when carrying (he is someone who would definately carry legal or not). Again though, this isn't someone that should have a handgun (when he had one in the past he carried illegally and bragged about brandishing during a disagreement with a neighbor in order to intimidate him).

What would you do? This is a friend who I don't want to see hurt, but he also has no common sense and certainly is impulsive, quick to anger and never thinks things through. I simply lent him some money (he is in hiding and quit his job since the guy knows where he works) so he can do what he will do, and I talked him out of his "surveilance" plan.

Also, a few of my friends and myself spent a lot of time visiting him when he was working at the bar. If this guy is as dangerous as the cops suggest he likely will be going to the bar looking for my friend. Several of the employees there if scared enough could possibly tell the guy about my friends and myself being this friend's friend. There is a chance (albeit, likely to be small) that he could look for me in order to try to find my friend. This is not a state where CCW is legal. What should I do? I am already good about carrying a knife and pepper spray. I will have to be extra sure I always have it. I am half thinking about carrying my Taurus 85 despite the law (I certainly would if I knew this guy was looking for me to get to my friend). This guy is dangerous- he is a mid level drug dealer and trafficer so he could easily pose a problem.

 

[George Hill]

Don't let your friend leave that bar alone. Meet him after work, escort him to his car. Of course, you understand that this is putting you into harms way. That being said - I remember a line from Young Guns. "It's not easy having Pals".

Don't give him a gun. Coming out of a bar and he gets into a confrontation of any sort - wont look good.

What would I do? Play Body Guard until this guy is tanked.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Did you adopt this friend? Is he underage?

He sounds to me like a guy who's gonna do what he's gonna do. Let him make his own decisions!! Do NOT give him a gun -- if he thinks he needs a gun, let him buy one for himself. Don't give him any advice but "stay out of bars, and stay out of this guy's way."

After all, YOU don't want to wind up being sued for what your friend does.

 

[Archie]

Don't loan your friend a firearm.

That sounds like a ready-made losing proposition.

Give him some pepper spray. Perhaps convince him to visit his cousin in Des Moines for awhile.

See about a court restraining order against the bad guy. It won't stop him, but it will give the police more grounds to act if he shows up. You might consider such an order for you and your home.

You should probably carry pepper spray too, unless your fiefdom has made that illegal, too.

Stay alert!

 

[fourdeuce82d]

"What would you do? This is a friend who I don't want to see hurt, but he also has no common sense and certainly is impulsive, quick to anger and never thinks things through."

Brother...you may have to dump him and let him die. Unless you want to wade into a situation that involves words like "manluaghter" "1st degree murder" "Oh ???? I'm paralyzed from the neck down."

If your friend can't pull his Shiite together enough to eliminate problems, but is still focused on CAUSING them... It doesn't look good.


here's the thing- you could do the whole Wyat Earp OK Corall thing- and maybe you'd win.

In which case when you were in jail you'd have the respect of a bunch of ???? heads.

You've got to make your own choices- I'd recomend your friend backing the phooq off, joining the army, whatever.

This kind of thing cannot end well. Best to get the hell away.

 

[chaim]

OK, there have been a few misunderstandings so far, understandable since this is a long post, so I will summarize and clarify a few key points, and I will add one point I left off.

-This was last Wen at a bar where my friend worked (he's since quit since the BG knows my friend worked there- my friend is in hiding). The only current issues are how much and how I should help my friend, and what I should do in the off chance that I could face some danger from this guy looking for my friend. I only heard about this tonight, my friend went to his family for help before he came to me (they are hiding him right now and giving some financial help since he had to quit his job).

-I might give some friends a gun in this situation, but since this friend is a hothead that is not an option here.

-No restraining order is needed- the BG is currently charged with assault and there is an arrest warrant out for 2nd degree assault and violating parole, and after the meeting with the prosecutor felony assault and/or attempted murder will probably be added to the list.


-He might run to another state for a few weeks, but after nearly a 10 year hiatus he is finally returning to college next semester and he doesn't want to put that off again. The Army isn't an option, he is a Coast Guard vet and there is no way he'd consider another service (or the Coast Guard either at this point in his life).

-While this friend is a hothead, this situation is not his fault. He was socializing at the bar he worked at after work, minding his own business, when he was attacked (I guess he could have tried to run away when it was just the guy verbally attacking him). The stupid "surveilance" idea is over- I talked him out of it. The hothead stuff doesn't really have any bearing on this situation, it is just my worry in how much I can help and what advice to give (I will not lend a gun or knife, I want to discourage him from buying a handgun or knife with which he'd likely get himself into trouble with someday in the future- I think a long gun should be ok though since he would have to leave it at home).

 

[Preacherman]

Chaim, in this kind of situation, Good Samaritans die. Don't be foolish! If this was your blood kin, I'd understand: but he's an acquaintance - from your description, not necessarily one of your best friends. By all means, give him advice: but don't lend him a gun that can be traced back to you (criminals can do this through "bent" cops as easily as "good" cops can do it). Also, don't drive him around in a car licensed to you (same reason).

If I were you, I'd find a "street-smart" detective and ask his/her advice. If he/she knows the suspect, and his record, they'll have a pretty good idea of who he runs with, and what the associated risks may be. I'd look for that sort of input NOW!!! Having got it, you can make an informed decision.

If this guy is a better friend than he seems from what you've said, then you're going to have to make a couple of hard decisions:

1. Are you willing to die with/for him?

2. Are you willing to kill for him, or have him kill someone using your loaned gun (thereby implicating you as a possible accessory before the fact), and then face the legal consequences with/for him?

If the answer to either question is "no", back off!

 

[Devonai]

I suggest you have a long and serious talk with your friend about how his actions will effect the outcome of this situation. Make it clear to him that if he wants your help he WILL walk the straight and narrow path on this one. Tell him that if there's the slightest hint that his temper and his attitude are going to get you both in trouble, you walk. If he takes your friendship seriously he will get the hint. If not, tell him you're very sorry but until he decides to grow up you can't hang out with him anymore.

I think a lot of us have had friends like this. Mine ended up in Juvenile Hall until he was 17. I walked away before he really screwed up or I might have been right there with him. I cared for him, but when the rubber hits the road you have to watch out for your own well-being.

Whatever you do, make sure it's legal. Tell your buddy that camping out around this guy's house is a terrible idea and you will absolutely not support him if he does it.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

It's been said pretty well. DON'T loan him any hardware. He's clearly not responsible enough, and you don't need the liability.

It's a big city -- if he's in "hiding," he should well be able to stay hidden.

As for carrying yourself, consider how oftten you've been stopped and frisked. I am in my 30s and have never been. If your life is in danger, I know you'll make the right decision for you.

Incidentally, I use a SmartCarry, and have carried (legally, in MN) for six months without ever having been made.

 

[rayra]

To hell with loaning a "hothead" your firearm.
Instead loan him bus fare to visit an out-of-state relative until his testimony is needed at trial.

 

[Norton]

Chaim,

Sounds like you are already doing the best thing by talking your friend out of doing anything "proactive".

Since he's already quit his job and it sounds like he and his attackers don't run in the same circles (since the attacker just settled a family feud from 17 years ago) it may be fairly easy for him to just disappear into the crowd in the Metro area.

If you want to help him in a passive manner (meaning not actually going to war for him), then help him to rent an apartment under your or someone else's name.....maybe you could work out a sublet agreement so that his name doesn't appear on too much paperwork. Then agree to put the utilities, etc. in your name.

That's a huge financial risk but like someone said here, "It ain't easy having pals." Plus, it's far better than putting your neck on the line.

Given the number of people in the DC/Baltimore area, I think that if your buddy simply moves to the other side of town he'll never see this guy again. Heck, I spend time in the neighborhood I grew up in and haven't seen anyone that I went to HS with for 5 years.

 

[TarpleyG]

I think you are already on the right track. Make sure he stays hidden. Maybe you shouldn't even know where he is just in case someone tries to pry it out of you. The problem's not going away and is likely to get worse if they BG is as you describe. He'll either want revenge or not. He'll get your friend now or later if he wants to so looking over your shoulder all the time is no way to live. Just hoep he gets arrested and tried quickly and gets some real time. The longer, the better. People will move and die while he's in and your friend will be harder to find later on.

GT

 

[ksnecktieman]

Your description of him says it all. "hothead" I do not want any form of gun control, but there are some people that really have no business with a gun. He needs to grow some more first. Do not hurt yourself trying to save him from himself.

 

[Double Maduro]

Chaim,

First, it is hard to imagine a "hothead" sitting there and letting someone challenge him verbally and then assault him physically without being at least a little involved in the escalation of events.

Secondly, my response would depend on how close a friendship I have with this guy. If he is like a brother to me I would act as a body guard for him. I would put myself between him and danger.

If he is more of an acquaintance, I probably would sympathize with him, and not get very involved.

Under no circumstances would I lend a "hothead" a firearm of any kind.

You are the only person qualified to answer your question. I am sure you will make a reasoned and reasonable decision.

DM

 

[Sunray]

"...He is on parole..." The last thing you need is to get involved in this. Your buddy has done what he can do. He should demand 24 hour police protection until they do grab the plug. Mind you, your buddy sounds like "a piece of work" too. He'd carry legal or not? You need to stay away from this guy. He's trouble. You'll end up with your firearms seized and yourself sitting in a jail cell.
"This is not a state where CCW is legal." That says it all. You lend him anything and you're liable for prosecution too.

 

[PawDaddy]

Chaim,

It sounds like you already know that it would be wrong to loan him a gun. I think that you just want to be reassured that you shouldn't loan it to him.

I would personally disassosiate myself from this guy before he got me into this mess. But, it sounds like you do not want to do that. I would be very careful as to being seen with him and hanging out where he works. Trying to be his bodyguard is only going to get you into trouble with the law if something happens to the bad guy, or worse if this guy gets to you both first,IMHO.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Your friend needs to move a long distance in a short time. You need to find a worthy new friend.

 

[QuickDraw]

A thought just struck me......if the BG has a warrant out for his arrest and is looking at hard time,wouldn't HE be the one to keep a low profile?
Odds are your buddy and the BG are doing the exact same thing.
It would seem to me that if the cops wanted to snatch this turd up, they would know where to find him.Obviously hes keeping his head down.


QuickDraw

 

[chaim]

OK, to clarify one more time. At no time have I even considered lending this friend one of my guns. Some of my friends if they got in this situation might get one, not this guy. It is not an option.

Your description of him says it all. "hothead" I do not want any form of gun control, but there are some people that really have no business with a gun. He needs to grow some more first.

I completely agree. Myself and several other friends agree that this is a guy who shouldn't own a handgun. He will get himself in trouble and give the anti's more ammo in the process. He used to be a gun owner and we were all quite relieved when he sold them a few years ago.


Anyway, I do need some advice if anyone can think of anything I haven't. I like that he is staying hidden and he isn't thinking about something to carry as a result. I think even a knife would be a bad idea for this friend. Pepper spray might be a good idea though. It is some protection should something happen but it will not cause irreversable damage should he do something stupid with it (then again since it isn't generally deadly he may be more likely to do something stupid). For home defense he is thinking about a long gun. I don't think that is a bad idea. With a long gun he won't be able to take it out of the house (concealed anyway) which could lead to him doing something to get into trouble and/or hurt someone. However, if the BG finds him he'll have something. I won't give him one or enough money to buy one though. He is thinking about a .22lr rifle though- not very effective, but he mainly wants it to feel better anyway.

I have given my friend some money. He isn't working anymore and he does need some money for food and stuff. He is supposed to get enough money for the .22 rifle from a family member. If he uses my money for something other than food, that isn't what I gave it to him for, but I don't really have much control over that at this point (I did make sure that I didn't give him anywhere near enough for the rifle just in case).

He is well hidden. The house isn't too far from the BG's house, but he should be ok anyway (he is in no way connected to the house). He isn't leaving except when he has no choice and then only after dark, and then he isn't doing anything in the immediate area. I can't say much else (or who knows where he actually is) just to be safe.

Maybe you shouldn't even know where he is just in case someone tries to pry it out of you.

Yeah, that is a worry. Since he worked at the bar where this happened most of those there know two of my friends and myself are friends with him. We aren't going to set foot in that bar until this is over in case the BG or his "boys" come in looking for my friend and scare someone enough to tell about us (not to mention that one of the other employees seems to be friendly with the BG). I don't want him to be able to put my face in his memory as someone to look for to find my friend. As it is, if he gets a description I won't be too hard to find (edited just in case).

First, it is hard to imagine a "hothead" sitting there and letting someone challenge him verbally and then assault him physically without being at least a little involved in the escalation of events.

Yeah, knowing him it is very possible that he might have said something that wouldn't have helped the situation to say the least. The only thing that might have kept him from being stupid and aggrevating the situation is that it happened at work and he needed the job/money.

If he is like a brother to me I would act as a body guard for him. I would put myself between him and danger.

If he is more of an acquaintance, I probably would sympathize with him, and not get very involved.

He is actually someplace in between. There are friends who are like a brother to me and who I would willingly risk my life and limb for. He isn't one. However, he is more than an acquaintance. I've known him since high school and he really can be a good guy.

That said, I was discussing the situation with another friend (one of those who is known at that bar as one of his friends) who has known him for even longer than I. We see that this friend is really scared and we are hoping that this will cause him to think ahead more and to see life as less of a game. However, we have decided that if he doesn't learn from this situation we will need to cut him off from our lives. If he continues in his stupid behavior this won't be the last situation he is in. The next could leave him dead or in jail. We don't want to be there when that happens, and we certainly don't want to be dragged down with him. Hopefully, this will be the wake up call we were all hoping he'd get before he was killed or jailed due to his stupidity/impulsivity.

 

[Ryder]

He can't be well hidden and spend the money you gave him at the same time. You could have offered to shop for him? Buy him lots of movies to watch, keep him off the streets.

Watch out for the fate of others rubbing off on you. Some people rush to their destiny like a moth to flame and you do not want to be too close when it happens.

I refused to loan a gun to a friend or to accompany him on a "mission" to break into his parent's house one night. He died the next night shot through the heart by a 22 rifle. Wish I could have talked him out of it but like I said, moth to a flame.

 

[chaim]

He can't be well hidden and spend the money you gave him at the same time. You could have offered to shop for him? Buy him lots of movies to watch, keep him off the streets.

Ryder, I don't know, it's kind of a six of one half dozen of the other kind of situation. If the BG gets a discription of myself or another friend we don't want to be coming and going where we might lead him to the friend (and I do stand out a bit in this area if the BG does get a description). My friend isn't generally going out. When he does it is at night after dark, and he goes to a store well outside the immediate vicinity to do his shopping. He did have someone bring him some food today, but in general he is willing to leave if needed (though he's too scared to right now). For the most part he is just barracading himself. He has even shut off his cell phone and is borrowing someone else's that no one at his work has the number to, though I don't see how that really does anything.

 

[WonderNine]

Personally I wouldn't file charges over a bar fight, but that's just me.

I guess if someone kicks your butt nowadays you can't just leave it at that...

 

[chaim]

WonderNine, normally I might agree with you. If it had been just an exchange of punches charges might be overkill. However, this guy strangled my friend until he passed out and was completely motionless. He was out for 10-15 minutes and everyone there (including presumably the BGs) thought he was dead. When it was clear that he wasn't, he started to come to, his attackers started attacking him again (kicking him in the back of the head). Would you say that what looks like it might be attempted murder shouldn't lead to charges because it started as only a bar fight? This wasn't just "garden variety" choking, this was outright strangling- he had bruises on his neck and his neck still hurts nearly a week later.

 

[PawDaddy]

Chaim,

If your friend was unconscience for 10-15 minutes, why were the police not there and why were the BG's still hanging around?

 

[chaim]

911 was called. The police showed up after everything was over (but the BGs were still there). The BG actually threatened the cops and for some reason the cops chose not to arrest him or his associates (according to some of the witnesses who were talking to the police they seemed afraid of the guy). My friend has filed a complaint agaist the officers who showed up for not arresting the guy (I have no idea if that can be grounds for disciplinary action around here or not, but my friend is trying- and the SGT he filed the complaint with was rather mad at the behavior of the cops).