Buwauahahs another big bore convert
What's the better big bore AR cartridge?
- Thread starter TTv2
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TTv2
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I find that .50 has very few benefits compared to .45, but for me the bottom line is it's cheaper to shoot a .45 than a .50 caliber. Also, there are plenty of .45 suppressors out there compared to .50 caliber suppressors.
GunnyUSMC
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What I don't understand are those that worry about the cost of shooting a big bore AR. The reason for building a big bore should not be to shoot it cheaply. It should be for putting bigger holes in things. If I want to shoot cheaper I'll shoot my 9mm are 5.56 AR's.
mcb
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Agreed but you can still watch for deals to make your big holes a little bit cheaper. I got some of the Hornady 300gr .452 FTX bullets (I believe they are actually sold by Hornady as a saboted muzzle-loader bullet) as factory blems from Midway dirt cheap two years ago. Those have been great, cheap big holes. I have seen the 325 gr .458 FTX show up as factory blems too on occasion.
I have not tried them yet but have been tempted to try some of the coated lead bullets in my big bore. Especially heave bullets as the velocity tends to come down to velocities that work well with the coated bullets. That can also make shooting big holes a bit more affordable.
But for hunting I go premium. I have been using Barnes 275gr TSX bullet.
Fine Figure of a Man
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You're right but I consider the availability of cheap bullets a plus for any cartridge.
someguy2800
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I guess I disagree with that. My 45-70 guide gun is my favorite plinker. I guess if it’s going to be a hunting gun only then it’s not going to matter much.
jmorris
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Everyone has a price point, it’s just different for different people.
I likely wouldn’t own any of them if I didn’t reload as factory ammo for all of them is expensive (my stockpile of 50 BMG cost less per round that lots of factory ammo for these three).
I cast and coat my own bullets and for my plinking stuff it really doesn’t matter what it is, .224-12 ga slug, because I recycle my lead anyway.
As for buying bullets, the .452 pistol bullets can be had cheaper than .458 or .500, not much argument in that.
I likely wouldn’t own any of them if I didn’t reload as factory ammo for all of them is expensive (my stockpile of 50 BMG cost less per round that lots of factory ammo for these three).
I cast and coat my own bullets and for my plinking stuff it really doesn’t matter what it is, .224-12 ga slug, because I recycle my lead anyway.
As for buying bullets, the .452 pistol bullets can be had cheaper than .458 or .500, not much argument in that.
GunnyUSMC
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Now I understand wanting to shoot for less and lower cost bullets is always a good thing, but you are going to have a hard time shooting a big bore AR for cheap. Factory 9mm range ammo is around 19 cents a round and 5.56 is 21 cents. The cheapest factory load for 458 Socom I have found is $170 a round. I could probable cut that cost in half by hand loading, but I don't ever see getting it down to 25 cents a round.
I'm not going to let shooting for less factor into the caliber I want for a big bore AR. But I will look for good deals on bullets for reloading.
I'm not going to let shooting for less factor into the caliber I want for a big bore AR. But I will look for good deals on bullets for reloading.
Fine Figure of a Man
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My 45-70 brass cost 50 cents a piece. I have a bunch of lead that cost me nothing. Even if I had to buy the lead I could load my cast bullets for about 15 cents a round. I'm thinking 450 bushmaster will cost about the same.
mcb
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Assuming you already have a good supply of 450BM brass you can reload 230gr FMJ plinkers for about $0.27 a round. Not super accurate, minute of half gallon milk jug at 50 yards. A 230gr FMJ going 2300 fps does make them pop nicely.
GunnyUSMC
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I don't think I would want to shoot lead bullets in an AR with a gas tub, your just inviting trouble. I also wouldn't want to waste my time to load ammo that's not accurate.
I have plenty of guns that I can plink with so, no plans to use my, soon to be built, 458 Socom for plinking. It will see some range time to sight it in and then will be a hunting rifle just like my AR in .277 Wolverine.
I have plenty of guns that I can plink with so, no plans to use my, soon to be built, 458 Socom for plinking. It will see some range time to sight it in and then will be a hunting rifle just like my AR in .277 Wolverine.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Sorry but math has nothing to do with it, nor does energy. With a .45 caliber bullet at subsonic velocities, forget about expansion, it's not needed or desired. So we're talking non-expanding, flat point solids. In which case, all added weight does is promote penetration. If a 250gr bullet exits, all a 500gr bullet is going to do is waste twice as much lead. Take two cast bullets of similar shape, one 250gr and the other 500gr, if both exit the difference in weight is irrelevant. As I said, the idea that a 500gr bullet hits harder on light game like deer, or that the .458 has ANY advantage over the .450 is a myth. If the game is big enough to catch a 250gr bullet, then it's a different story. Then however much weight is required to ensure an exit wound is the better choice. If the game is large enough to 'need' a 500gr bullet, you need a better launching platform than the .458 SOCOM.
jmorris
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I have had 405’s that didn’t exit hogs in the past both super and sub. That said, they were still just as dead as they would have been otherwise.
In any case lots of “if’s”. That’s why I made the quantitative post in #16.
It’s easy to show that a 500 grain bullet has 53.769% more energy than a 325 at 1050, good, bad or indifferent.
In any case lots of “if’s”. That’s why I made the quantitative post in #16.
It’s easy to show that a 500 grain bullet has 53.769% more energy than a 325 at 1050, good, bad or indifferent.
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For those that are interested, Primary Arms has Radical Arms .458 bolts and barrels for sale on clearance.
https://www.primaryarms.com/search?keywords=.458
Bunch of other barrels, parts, etc. also on clearance.
https://www.primaryarms.com/search?keywords=.458
Bunch of other barrels, parts, etc. also on clearance.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Energy is a meaningless number in any context but especially this one. Yeah, it's real easy to show that a heavier bullet produces more energy but it doesn't mean anything if it and whatever you're comparing to exit.
Not a lot of "if's". One "if". As I said, if the bullet exits, a 250gr is just as effective as a 500gr. This is what we know from decades of hunting with handguns.
Are you talking about the rapidly expanding 405gr Remington bullet? Totally different critter and also a very inefficient bullet. You'd get better performance with less recoil out of a better 300gr if you want expansion.
Not a lot of "if's". One "if". As I said, if the bullet exits, a 250gr is just as effective as a 500gr. This is what we know from decades of hunting with handguns.
Are you talking about the rapidly expanding 405gr Remington bullet? Totally different critter and also a very inefficient bullet. You'd get better performance with less recoil out of a better 300gr if you want expansion.
Just a side note having worked with a radical, they are rough around the edges as the reviews state.
It took me about 10 mins to take the sharp edge off the feed ramp which would hang up or dings. The muzzle threads are 5/8-32, and cheap breaks are avilable.
The barrels also exibit alot of radial tools marks/button chatter, but they are generally accurate. Both my .458 and Grendel exibited this.
For the 110 bucks the bolt and barrel set are going for tho it looks like I might be building another one.....sigh.....
Sorry about that. Hope the Big Island avoids the hurricane as y'all have had a rough year.
One thing that I like about Primary Arms is that they ship fast and prices are comparable to PSA. I got a Radical H-Bar 5.56 nitride barrel a few years ago that was pretty decent but I am used to fitting parts anyway so I don't really remember if or what I had to do with the barrel during the build.
Next build will probably be a valkyrie or a .300 BO pistol but I am having some health issues right now that are keeping me from completing several of my existing projects.
The gunsmith is finally going to do the lathe and headspacing work on my 1916 Oberndorf GEW 98 replacement barrel and that will let me get at least one project squared away. Then I have to finish my 1903 Springfield in .22 LR. Picked up an Enfield SMLE .22 LR barrel as well that needs a receiver--have most of the bolt parts for it. Sigh. Maybe next year on the AR builds.
GunnyUSMC
Member
I avoid Radical’s BCG’s. There are much better BCG’s for the same price or less.
Brownell’s has their 458 BCG on sale for $84.99 with free shipping right now. Plus you get their lifetime warranty. I ordered the BCG last night.
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...bolt-carrier-group-nitride-mp-prod105383.aspx
I also ordered a XX-Treme Cryo treated heavy barrel coming from Delta for $89.99. I also added a steel gas block and heavy buffer and got free shipping.
https://www.deltateamtactical.com/X...rrel-936-Gas-System-Cryo-Treated-_p_7300.html
Ugh ..guess it's time for me to start saving for one of these....https://fightlite.com/products/scr-lwr-sp
Brownells house brand has been hit and miss for me on some of their stuff just like midway. I have a brownell bolt carrier in a 6.8 build that had the ejector roll pin left proud. It happens.
Both as well as primary do support their stuff though. It just depends on the original source. Premium stuff like jp products or Daniel defense usually have tighter tolerances and better quality control but usually cost more. But as usual ymmv.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Then you're using a tender bullet that expands too rapidly. IMHO, this application is where cast bullets really shine and anything 250gr or heavier is going to exit. As I said, IF a 250gr bullet exits, you're pissing into the wind by using a 500gr bullet.
I never said it was needed to kill but this is the disconnect. Handgun hunters learned all this stuff years ago but rifle hunters hunting with big bore subsonic rifles have yet to figure it out. Rifle logic and experience just does not apply when the context is a .45cal bullet at 1050fps.
GunnyUSMC
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For warranty the two places that have been the best is Brownell’s and Delta Team Tactical. I’ve never had to send anything back to Primary or Midway.
I hope Radical gets there quality control up to par. The local gun shops around here don’t carry them any more. One shop got in 20 rifles and ended up having to send more then half back for one thing or another. Trouble with the BCG was the biggest problem.
jmorris
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I suppose I tend to “play” around a bit or “experiment” as some might call it. I have a number of “right on through” kills as well using FMJ’s even with fairly small bore firearms, mostly on varmits like coyotes but poking a hole does work too, no doubt about it.
Craig, I think the “If” is the key. You’re right. If both bullets exit, energy comparison is irrelevant. But “If” the lighter bullet doesn’t exit, it then transfers that energy into the animal and the animal is forced to absorb it. However personally, I don’t look at it as a good thing. I want an exit. But sometimes we just don’t get what we want. Stuff happens.
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