What's the better big bore AR cartridge?

[CraigC]

At these slow speeds, consistent expansion is a pipe dream. You're sacrificing penetration and it's not necessary anyway, it's already a .45. So with expanding bullets, heavier is better, to a point. However, as I said, at these velocities non-expanding bullets really shine and at which point, if your 250gr is not exiting on deer sized game, there's something wrong with it. Maybe go up to 300gr to absolutely guarantee an exit but as I've repeated, 500gr is just absurd for deer. Has nothing to do with energy transfer but how large and deep the wound channel is. The quantity of energy expended in the process is irrelevant.

 

[someguy2800]

Ft lbs of energy is completely meaningless. If you hit a deer with a pickup going 40 mph, the deer will absorb many thousands of ft lbs of energy, but unless it breaks its neck more often than not they survive.

Likewise if you hit it with a 20 lb bowling ball at 50 mph, that calculates out to 1671 ft lbs of energy. You’ll probably knock it off it’s feet but it will run off and survive. However a 22 lr bullet through the lungs with 150 ft lbs of energy will kill it dead.

 

[TTv2]

For warranty the two places that have been the best is Brownell’s and Delta Team Tactical. I’ve never had to send anything back to Primary or Midway.
I hope Radical gets there quality control up to par. The local gun shops around here don’t carry them any more. One shop got in 20 rifles and ended up having to send more then half back for one thing or another. Trouble with the BCG was the biggest problem.

ugh, why u guyz have to tell me this now? I just ordered a Brownell's 5.56 bolt carrier on sale and a 10% off coupon and free shipping.

 

[TTv2]

At these slow speeds, consistent expansion is a pipe dream. You're sacrificing penetration and it's not necessary anyway, it's already a .45. So with expanding bullets, heavier is better, to a point. However, as I said, at these velocities non-expanding bullets really shine and at which point, if your 250gr is not exiting on deer sized game, there's something wrong with it. Maybe go up to 300gr to absolutely guarantee an exit but as I've repeated, 500gr is just absurd for deer. Has nothing to do with energy transfer but how large and deep the wound channel is. The quantity of energy expended in the process is irrelevant.

I'm working up .327 Magnum loads in a Henry to hunt deer, so my focus with the big bore AR cartridges isn't on deer because even .223 will kill a deer at the right distance.

I'm thinking more along the lines of elk, buffalo, and black/brown bear for hunting and defense and use with a suppressor for subsonic shooting.

 

[LoonWulf]

500gr is just absurd for deer.

I'm thinking more along the lines of elk, buffalo, and black/brown bear for hunting and defense and use with a suppressor for subsonic shooting.

Not being a suppressor guy this might be completely wrong, but ive always thought that using heavier projectiles made it easier to keep velocity down, while pressure stayed high enough to cycle a semi?

I shot a 600lb cow with a 405gr Rem thru both shoulders, bullet exited tho i didnt get to see what it did on the off side. My more normal load was a 300grain nosler balistic tip, the one for muzzys.

 

[troy fairweather]

Not being a suppressor guy this might be completely wrong, but ive always thought that using heavier projectiles made it easier to keep velocity down, while pressure stayed high enough to cycle a semi?

I shot a 600lb cow with a 405gr Rem thru both shoulders, bullet exited tho i didnt get to see what it did on the off side. My more normal load was a 300grain nosler balistic tip, the one for muzzys.

ya the heavy bullets give more dwell time for the psi to build up to run the action. u can make any bullet go slower then 1050fps but the heavys give u the extra lbs. like 5 years ago i messed around with my Siamese mauser in 45/70 with 520 gr cast bullets. i got them as slow as 350 fps used a friends crono from work. u could see the bullets going down range. i killed a deer with one on a very cold day about -10 below the deer fell without even moving.

 

[LoonWulf]

ya the heavy bullets give more dwell time for the psi to build up to run the action. u can make any bullet go slower then 1050fps but the heavys give u the extra lbs. like 5 years ago i messed around with my Siamese mauser in 45/70 with 520 gr cast bullets. i got them as slow as 350 fps used a friends crono from work. u could see the bullets going down range. i killed a deer with one on a very cold day about -10 below the deer fell without even moving.

Bet that was interesting, slowest I've done is 800 with 245MBCs from my .300aac RAR. Those were fun, not horribly effective tho. Much rather have more frontal area for subs.

 

[troy fairweather]

id like get one of those cheap 458 socom uppers. maybe for xmas or black Friday. it getting harder and harder to want to put money in to ar's here in new york with the the stuff going on.

 

[mcb]

Ft lbs of energy is completely meaningless. If you hit a deer with a pickup going 40 mph, the deer will absorb many thousands of ft lbs of energy, but unless it breaks its neck more often than not they survive.

Likewise if you hit it with a 20 lb bowling ball at 50 mph, that calculates out to 1671 ft lbs of energy. You’ll probably knock it off it’s feet but it will run off and survive. However a 22 lr bullet through the lungs with 150 ft lbs of energy will kill it dead.

I have posted this next idea before and I still believe this and must strongly disagree with the idea that "Ft lbs or energy" ie kinetic energy is meaningless. Kinetic energy is the only energy source the bullet has, to do any work, when it reaches the target (assuming your not lobbing HE rounds or other projectiles with their own energetics on board) The ability to perforate tissue is a result of exchanging kinetic energy for tissue damage. The ability to cause the bullet to expand or fragment is the result of exchanging kinetic energy for deformation to the bullet. Whatever the bullet does at the target it is powered by the only energy source the bullet has and that is kinetic energy.

If we where talking about perforating a monolithic target with a non-expanding bullet penetration depth is directly proportional to the kinetic energy the bullet has when it hits the target. This exact experiment was one of the earliest tests done (by Willem 's Gravesande in 1722) validating that the idea that kinetic energy calculated as 1/2 M V^2 was the correct way to describe the energy of motion.

The problem comes from the fact that randomly poking a hole in a critter is not enough to kill. You need to poke that hole in the right location to damage the right things in the right way to kills and there are simply too many variables in shot place, anatomy, bullet performance and other adverse conditions to simply say X amount of energy will always work. That said kinetic energy is the only physical energy source a bullet has when it gets there to do what it's going to do.

 

[CraigC]

I'm working up .327 Magnum loads in a Henry to hunt deer, so my focus with the big bore AR cartridges isn't on deer because even .223 will kill a deer at the right distance.

I'm thinking more along the lines of elk, buffalo, and black/brown bear for hunting and defense and use with a suppressor for subsonic shooting.

As I already posted, a 325gr Barnes Buster, Grizzly Punch or Swift A-frame will easily take all of those and more.

I have posted this next idea before and I still believe this and must strongly disagree with the idea that "Ft lbs or energy" ie kinetic energy is meaningless.

Energy is meaningless and is easily debunked as a metric for a cartridge's effectiveness with just a handful of examples. It is a simple answer to a very complicated question. It places far too much importance on velocity, too little on mass and none on diameter or bullet construction. It's only useful as a marketing tool to sell velocity. Yes, we all know it exists and what it does but the quantity of energy carried by a bullet does not tell us anything useful and it needs to be left out of any serious discussion of terminal ballistics. Gravesande's experiments are not applicable to terminal ballistics.

https://www.shootersforum.com/balli.../211754-my-theory-gravesandes-experiment.html

 

[boom boom]

For warranty the two places that have been the best is Brownell’s and Delta Team Tactical. I’ve never had to send anything back to Primary or Midway.
I hope Radical gets there quality control up to par. The local gun shops around here don’t carry them any more. One shop got in 20 rifles and ended up having to send more then half back for one thing or another. Trouble with the BCG was the biggest problem.

I have only used one of their barrels in a build and that was a few years ago. Tolerance stacking from combining parts from different mfgs and buying materials from sub optimal subcontractors can also be an issue for small manufacturers like Radical.

That is why I always read user and website reviews of products before buying (even on the websites where I don't purchase the item so as to avoid in house shills) and focus on the most recent ones. For parts with few reviews, I buy brand name simply to reduce hassles.

I have bought quite a bit from Brownells over the years and like most everything except their shipping times. The proud ejector pin, I simply fixed rather than mess with returning it. Don't remember returning anything in the last several years though.

 

[boom boom]

ya the heavy bullets give more dwell time for the psi to build up to run the action. u can make any bullet go slower then 1050fps but the heavys give u the extra lbs. like 5 years ago i messed around with my Siamese mauser in 45/70 with 520 gr cast bullets. i got them as slow as 350 fps used a friends crono from work. u could see the bullets going down range. i killed a deer with one on a very cold day about -10 below the deer fell without even moving.

FWIW,
Just saw an ad for a new copper monolithic honeybadger 325 gr bullet for the .45-70 cartridge in a gunmag. Black Hills is selling it and claiming @1300 fps generates a 7" diameter cavity with nearly one yard of penetration.

The old Webley .455 revolver round relied on the same slow, large heavy bullet idea and reportedly did so pretty well in WWI and other actions.

 

[TTv2]

As I already posted, a 325gr Barnes Buster, Grizzly Punch or Swift A-frame will easily take all of those and more.

Then .450 Bushmaster is best for me for a big bore AR. Maybe not for others, but it makes sense for me.

 

[jmorris]

Ft lbs of energy is completely meaningless.... a 22 lr bullet through the lungs with 150 ft lbs of energy will kill it dead.

I guess we’ll just have to disagree. While I have killed hogs with a .22 lr (in a trap) and have witnessed many 1500+ lb bovine DRT with single shots of .22 short as a kid (butchers old, back then, .22 pump contacting the skull), thats not what I hunt animals of that size with.

If just a poke through was best, we would all be hunting with long skinny solids.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I have only used one of their barrels in a build and that was a few years ago. Tolerance stacking from combining parts from different mfgs and buying materials from sub optimal subcontractors can also be an issue for small manufacturers like Radical.

That is why I always read user and website reviews of products before buying (even on the websites where I don't purchase the item so as to avoid in house shills) and focus on the most recent ones. For parts with few reviews, I buy brand name simply to reduce hassles.

I have bought quite a bit from Brownells over the years and like most everything except their shipping times. The proud ejector pin, I simply fixed rather than mess with returning it. Don't remember returning anything in the last several years though.

Radical states that they make everything in house. I do have one of their barrels on one of my AR's. They offer a lifetime warranty on all their products. Primary Arms has some of the best peices on Radical products, even complete big bore uppers. I heard that Radical is pretty close to Primary and they save a lot of money on shipping.

 

[someguy2800]

I guess we’ll just have to disagree. While I have killed hogs with a .22 lr (in a trap) and have witnessed many 1500+ lb bovine DRT with single shots of .22 short as a kid (butchers old, back then, .22 pump contacting the skull), thats not what I hunt animals of that size with.

If just a poke through was best, we would all be hunting with long skinny solids.

We completely missed each other on that thought train. Of course, I am not advocating hunting big game with a 22lr or any small skinny bullet. As of late I've been mainly using a 444 marlin. My only point is that there is no correlation between ft lbs of energy and killing ability, meaning ft lbs of energy is not a good indicator of how big a wound path you can put through the bits they need to live. Perhaps a better comparison would be a 44 magnum revolver and a 223 rifle. They both produce similar energy levels, however the 223 is suitable for coyote sized game to maybe very small deer, whereas the 44 magnum is suitable for 1000 lb animals. So therefor energy does not mean much to me. Does that make more sense where I'm trying to come from?

 

[mcb]

We completely missed each other on that thought train. Of course, I am not advocating hunting big game with a 22lr or any small skinny bullet. As of late I've been mainly using a 444 marlin. My only point is that there is no correlation between ft lbs of energy and killing ability, meaning ft lbs of energy is not a good indicator of how big a wound path you can put through the bits they need to live. Perhaps a better comparison would be a 44 magnum revolver and a 223 rifle. They both produce similar energy levels, however the 223 is suitable for coyote sized game to maybe very small deer, whereas the 44 magnum is suitable for 1000 lb animals. So therefor energy does not mean much to me. Does that make more sense where I'm trying to come from?

Sure there is a correlation between energy and lethality. It is not a simple relationship and energy alone does not tell the whole story. With an inert projectile you need energy at target impact and bullet construction (weight, dimensions, materials) for the complete picture of it's penetration capabilities. Accuracy is still your number one factor in lethality but penetration is number two and there is a direct correlation between penetration and energy for a given projectile. With expanding bullets and interesting and complexes target construction (ie critters) that is not a simple relationship but one that is definitely there, more energy almost always equals more penetration, more penetration increases the odds of hitting something lethal in our complex target. In the grand scheme of things if all else is equal more energy usually equals more lethal.

Pick you favorite 44 caliber bullet. Load that bullet into 444 Marlin and the same bullet into a 44 Special and tell me which one you want to use against that very large angry grizzly bear that has decided your anatomy needs rearranged in to snack size bites or that elephant that has decided to do the stomp-and-gore dance on your body.

 

[someguy2800]

Pick you favorite 44 caliber bullet. Load that bullet into 444 Marlin and the same bullet into a 44 Special and tell me which one you want to use against that very large angry grizzly bear that has decided your anatomy needs rearranged in to snack size bites or that elephant that has decided to do the stomp-and-gore dance on your body.

If that bullet is a 330 grain flat point hard cast with a 27 brinell hardness I’ll take the 444. If that bullet is a 180 grain JHP revolver bullet you’d be better off with the 44 special.

Anyway this is an unproductive tangent, the original point being that comparing one cartridge to another in terms of ft lbs of energy is not useful, nore is it useful to say you need X amount of energy for Y game animal as some do. The important thing is the right bullet going at the right speed to put holes in the bits that need holes in them.

 

[jmorris]

Does that make more sense where I'm trying to come from?

Yes, not that ft/lbs of energy is completely meaningless, rather it in and of itself is not the entire story. I can agree with that.

 

[CraigC]

Pick you favorite 44 caliber bullet. Load that bullet into 444 Marlin and the same bullet into a 44 Special and tell me which one you want to use against that very large angry grizzly bear that has decided your anatomy needs rearranged in to snack size bites or that elephant that has decided to do the stomp-and-gore dance on your body.

The .44Spl isn't capable of utilizing bullets appropriate to very large game. However, change that argument to the .44Mag and all the .444 gains you is range.

 

[boom boom]

Radical states that they make everything in house. I do have one of their barrels on one of my AR's. They offer a lifetime warranty on all their products. Primary Arms has some of the best peices on Radical products, even complete big bore uppers. I heard that Radical is pretty close to Primary and they save a lot of money on shipping.

Not trying to pick a bone here but they do not,
"We currently manufacture all major components except for: barrels, BCGs, Stocks, LPKs and other springs and pins. All the parts we do not make in-house we source from highly respected vendors, such as: Azimuth Technologies for our BCGs."

http://www.radicalfirearms.com/aboutus.asp

 

[berettaprofessor]

Somebody please answer a couple of questions clearly to me before I get too excited by the choices:

1) All three calibers (.450 Bushmaster, .458 Socom, and .50 Beowulf) can be shot from a standard 5.56 AR lower with the proper caliber upper, correct?
2) .450 Bushmaster and .458 Socom can use standard 5.56 AR mags (just less capacity), while .0.50 Beowulf will require mags specific to that caliber, correct?
3) Each will require a BCG group different from the 5.56. 450 Bushmaster can use a 7.62X39 BCG, while .458 and .50 need BCG specific to caliber, correct?

Thanks.

 

[mcb]

Somebody please answer a couple of questions clearly to me before I get too excited by the choices:

1) All three calibers (.450 Bushmaster, .458 Socom, and .50 Beowulf) can be shot from a standard 5.56 AR lower with the proper caliber upper, correct?
2) .450 Bushmaster and .458 Socom can use standard 5.56 AR mags (just less capacity), while .0.50 Beowulf will require mags specific to that caliber, correct?
3) Each will require a BCG group different from the 5.56. 450 Bushmaster can use a 7.62X39 BCG, while .458 and .50 need BCG specific to caliber, correct?

Thanks.

1) Yes, They all work with standard lowers and I believe all three will work on standard uppers with the only modification being that the ejection port needs open up slightly. Something that can be done with a file if you're handy.
2) Correct, 450BM and 458 SOCOM will work with unmodified magazine. Though single stack followers sometimes get you an extra round of capacity depending one which body. PMAGs will have issue due to the divider in the front of the magazine.
3) They all use standard Bolt Carriers but each requires a non-standard bolt. I believe 450BM and 458 SOCOM bolts are basically the same. They are not the same as 7.62x39. I believe 50 Beowulf is the same (close enough) as 7.62x39. 450 BM/458 SOCOM rim diameter is .473 inch; 7.62x39 is .447 inch; and 50 Beowulf is .445 inch.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Somebody please answer a couple of questions clearly to me before I get too excited by the choices:

1) All three calibers (.450 Bushmaster, .458 Socom, and .50 Beowulf) can be shot from a standard 5.56 AR lower with the proper caliber upper, correct?
2) .450 Bushmaster and .458 Socom can use standard 5.56 AR mags (just less capacity), while .0.50 Beowulf will require mags specific to that caliber, correct?
3) Each will require a BCG group different from the 5.56. 450 Bushmaster can use a 7.62X39 BCG, while .458 and .50 need BCG specific to caliber, correct?

Thanks.

#1 & #2. YES
#3 the bolt is the only part you have to change, they can use the same bolt carrier. If you look you can fing just the bolt form $45 to $80 or the complete BCG form $89 to over $200.

Not trying to pick a bone here but they do not,
"We currently manufacture all major components except for: barrels, BCGs, Stocks, LPKs and other springs and pins. All the parts we do not make in-house we source from highly respected vendors, such as: Azimuth Technologies for our BCGs."

http://www.radicalfirearms.com/aboutus.asp

This is something they must have changed in the last two years. I watched one of the company videos that was put out a few years ago where they stated they made all their parts in house.
I see Radical as one of the up and coming AR manufactures. They seem to be trying to keep their cost down and pass the savings on to their customers.

 

[CraigC]

So does Radical make a decent .450 upper?