What's wrong with Glock?

[RustyShackelford]

Alpha dog....

I agree that a chief's or elected sheriff's say can have a huge swing to what the sworn personnel use. See William Bratton's leadership of the LAPD. He came from Boston & New York City. As LAPD chief, Bratton authorized the Glocks for patrol officers & detectives.
The recent switch in Knoxville TN is another good example. The police chief pushed for all sworn officers to go from Glock 22/23s in .40S&W to the SIG Sauer P220 .45acp sidearm. Why? Who knows.
Training & spare parts/armorers can be factors too. My city's metro PD(approx 900 sworn officers) use the SIG P226R 9x19mm. They've used P226s since 1990. They get a special deal with SIG & have a large training program. I'm curious to know why they didn't jump to the .40 or .45acp(P220R or the P227R) but the agency never had any problems or concerns with the duty round(Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP 9x19mm).

 

[romer12]

My Glock 19

I've had a 19 for the past 5 years. Never a problem. Glock said not to use re-loads ??? So I bought a Wolf barrel and have only shot re-loads.
Again, no problems...............

 

[420Stainless]

I have a superficial dislike of them. Otherwise, none of those I've shot had any problems. I didn't think they changed much except for some touchy-feely stuff in making Gen 4.

 

[RustyShackelford]

PA state troopers.....

I checked around online & saw the PA State Police put out a competitive bid for approx 150 SIG Sauer P227R DA/SA .45acp pistols.
The release was from May 2014.
The state agency has about 4700 sworn personnel so the P227Rs may just be a R&D project for now. The PSP(like any other public funded agency) would need the budget $ or plans to buy new SIGs for all the sworn personnel(plus spare parts, armorer training, holsters, etc).
They may not get new P227Rs(if at all) until 2015/2016.

 

[jamal28]

It is well known that both Oakland Pd in california and palm beach county sheriffs Dept in florida have had bad luck with there gen 4 glocks

 

[Big Shrek]

Most of the time, duty weapon purchases, the bottom line is price, second is reliability.

That's why Beretta got the M-9 contract...at $200 each, it was a nice low price...
even though in the trials, the Beretta finished third overall...

 

[PabloJ]

I checked around online & saw the PA State Police put out a competitive bid for approx 150 SIG Sauer P227R DA/SA .45acp pistols.
The release was from May 2014.
The state agency has about 4700 sworn personnel so the P227Rs may just be a R&D project for now. The PSP(like any other public funded agency) would need the budget $ or plans to buy new SIGs for all the sworn personnel(plus spare parts, armorer training, holsters, etc).
They may not get new P227Rs(if at all) until 2015/2016.

The SiGSauer is too expensive to issue regular police units with. As a taxpayer when are you going to object when county workers are furnished with Lexus or Mercedes Benz for official use?

 

[krupparms]

All my Glocks are older models & I have had no problems with them. That said I like what S&W are putting out these days. The M&P models and the S.D.9/40 V.E. guns are a great bargain! I will hang on to my Glocks, but S&W gets my money now days! I do like SIG. guns also, but with price to be considered. I stick with S&W.

 

[Bexar]

I don't like how easy it is to fire those striker fired weapons. I prefer the double action revolver configuration where first round is either a heavy and long double action pull or you thumb cock the thing. Glocks have a lot of accidental discharges and even one, traceable to the gun design, would cause enough lawsuit concerns for a state agency to reconsider the use.

Yep...I don't like striker fired pistols without a safety that is secondary to the trigger pull safety. I dropped a Glock sitting down one time that had a fully loaded magazine...empty chamber. When I instinctively went to catch it I happened to get my finger within the trigger guard. "Ping" went the pistol under the weight of the mag and my not having a grip on the pistol.

I'm a hammer man and always will be.

 

[tarosean]

Most of the time, duty weapon purchases, the bottom line is price, second is reliability.

That's why Beretta got the M-9 contract...at $200 each, it was a nice low price...
even though in the trials, the Beretta finished third overall...

While I agree politics and budgets play a bigger role in pistol choice than the actual weapon itself...

Your statements about the Beretta are just wrong. Instead of parroting misinformation. Read for yourself.

http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130439.pdf

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #32, bids, agencies....

I disagree with post #32.
The SIGs are in use with many federal state & local level agencies.
Federal agencies like the US Secret Service(P229R DAK), CBP, NCIS(P229R DAK .40), the VA police(Veterans Affairs, P229 9x19mm), OIGs(inspector general offices) of SSA, HUD, USDA.
My local PD issues the P226R & has purchased SIGs since 1990. A few small PDs & sheriff's offices near me use P229s & P220s(.45acp).
FWIW; SIG Sauer cuts deals for large orders to compete with the M&Ps/Glocks.
That's partly why they put out the P250 line & the new 320 series. The 2022s got a few overseas contracts for SIG Sauer but were not very popular in the US.

I wouldn't compare SIGs to Porsches or Mercedes Benz either. They are high end for guns, but not exclusive or out of reach for many budgets(sworn LE).

 

[JohnM]

Probably nothing, but a gun made mostly of plastics just don't do anything for me.

 

[JohnnyBravo]

The SiGSauer is too expensive to issue regular police units with. As a taxpayer when are you going to object when county workers are furnished with Lexus or Mercedes Benz for official use?
PabloJ is offline Report Post

Only if they are issuing P210's.

JB

 

[burk]

Up until Gen 4 a vast majority of Glock problems occurred with reloads in the .40 cal police models (22,23). The combination of unsupported chambers, out of spec reloads (for the record I'm not a fan of .40 reloads) produced some reliability issues and semi-catrostqrophic failures. For the record the numbers were real small, and I've seen almost every brand of .40 have failures with reloads including H & K, S& W, and Beretta. And Glock has by far the most placement in the LE market with (during the initial intro of the gen 3's being around 70%). I also remember that many local PD's bought reloads in bulk for practice therefore increasing the issue.The other issue was that with some weapons lights attached they wouldn't return to battery occasionally. Pre gen4, I was actually recommending Smiths.

In the Gen4"s Glock went to a heavier dual spring and re-did the .40 cal chambers. And the results with Gen4's have been good. BUT, in the vein of if it ain't broke don't fix it, some of the earlier run Gen4 9mm 17's and 19's had reliability issues with the heavier dual springs. Glock caught the problem early and recalled a couple of lots of springs to be replaced. I've heard very few issues of late with the Gen 4's. Gen3 and earlier 9's have a great reliability record and far better than Smith which has gone through three barrel redesigns in 9mm.

For the record I'm a .45 guy (have a 19 for range use) and I love my Gen4 21 and Gen3 30SF. In .45 they (at least for me) are way better guns than the Smith ( and yes I've owned 2) and the only thing even comparable is the H & K at about double the price without the compact option (at least not in comparable size to the 30S or SF).

I'm a fan of having the same platform for all my SD guns if possible, and Glock is hard to beat for this. So for me nothings wrong with them except they need to make a damn single stack nine.

 

[armoredman]

Just out of curiosity, what Depts were buying reloads? Mine uses Blazer ammo for qualification - reloads are forbidden by policy for qualification, duty OR off duty carry.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Reloads, rounds....

Most small LE agencies use reloaded or hand-loaded ammunition for training/quals.
I highly doubt any sworn PD in the United States, big or small allows/issues reloaded rounds for duty use(handgun or rifles).

As most "command staff" & range cadre know, nearly every lethal force event will result in a civil action. Right or wrong, that's a fact in 2014.

I'm sure factory rounds are budget items for several reasons; safety, logistics, EEO(equal employment opp)/unfair labor practices, legal, etc.
Many US gun makers void the product warranty too if hand-loads/reloads are used.
My city's PD uses the Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ round in 9x19mm. They've used it for about 15 years. SIG Sauer states on the main website that +P+ should not be used in the P series.

 

[herrwalther]

The Glock kool-aid is wearing off. A major department near where I live dropped their 1500+ Glock contract as the standard issue sidearm in favor of the M&P.

 

[AKElroy]

""Everything"" It sounds like that "GLOCK" is now more concerned with Share Holders, than with quality? All of industry at one time will turn, once you saturate the market, have made hundreds of millions, you have the market share on your product, the board of directors get greedy. Look at what happened to Remington (R51 is good example)

First, Glock is a privately held company, so it's "shareholders" consist of a very few actual owners, many if not all are decision makers within the company. Secondly, being concerned with making shareholders happy requires the same things that makes buyers happy; selling a product that works, with a sustainable margin. If it fails to work, or if it becomes too expensive relative to its competition, people stop buying it, and shareholders become unhappy.

The whole corporate-bashing thing is getting a little tired.

 

[ScarLata]

I like my customized G23, but I must admit that Glocks are the best like the Fast Foods are the best, because they are cheap and everywhere, but there are better restaurants with a more tasteful, variable and healthful menu.

 

[RustyShackelford]

True....

Glocks are not high end.
They are no-frills, mass produced pistols that can function or work under harsh conditions. If they run approx $75.00 to produce, the rest is mark-up/profit.

PDs & military forces use them because they are cheap, easy to service & lightweight.

 

[Dframe]

Well said ScarLata!!

 

[KenW.]

My LE agency will issue a Glock, but I'm not a lowest bidder kind of guy. As long as they allow personal sidearms, that's what I'll use.

 

[burk]

Just out of curiosity, what Depts were buying reloads? Mine uses Blazer ammo for qualification - reloads are forbidden by policy for qualification, duty OR off duty carry.

I worked in Police supply in SE MI years ago, and almost every local dept in the suburbs bought reloads in bulk (probably from local suppliers) for practice. I remember my buddy use to bring over bags of reloads for us to go shooting with (he was local LE). This was the case until about 2000, after that I have no idea. Some of these departments were quite large Detroit has a few suburbs with populations over 100,000. None of them used them for qualification or duty use to my knowledge, most ran Hydra Shocks or Black Talons back then.

Glocks are not high end.
They are no-frills, mass produced pistols that can function or work under harsh conditions. If they run approx $75.00 to produce, the rest is mark-up/profit.

PDs & military forces use them because they are cheap, easy to service & lightweight.

This is simply a myth, while the materials cost may be $75, labor in Austria is not cheap and they have work rules and regulations that are at least, if not more costlier than our own. Glocks aren't built in China or Brazil. And I can assure that no Gun company after importation, paperwork, regulation, and labor is building pistols in a Western industrial nation for $75. It's simply not possible. The margins in the firearms business are not that big, but the volume is huge, and I suspect that when all costs are figured in Glock is probably just about breaking even on LE sales, maybe even losing a few pennies. But, the advertising it gets from seeing your local LE walking around with one on his hips is priceless.

One other good thing about Glock, Glock has been one of the most pro second amendment manufactuers in the Industry. While S & W (under different management) and Ruger were kowtowing to the Clinton administration during the AWB, Glock did every thing in it's power including buying back pre-ban LE mags at a loss to keep high-cap mags available to consumers.

 

[tarosean]

The margins in the firearms business are not that big, but the volume is huge, and I suspect that when all costs are figured in Glock is probably just about breaking even on LE sales, maybe even losing a few pennies. But, the advertising it gets from seeing your local LE walking around with one on his hips is priceless.

It seems we just hashed this out the other day. Links below will be from that thread.

In the end it really dont matter what they build them for. What we can buy them for is most important.....

With that said...

Glocks pretax margins are almost triple S&W's (22% vs. close to 60%*)

* figure taken from the following article. Course SWHC's can be found on any stock site.
http://www.forbes.com/global/2003/0331/020.html

Another article states their profit margin is 68% per pistol.

Simpler than most pistols, the Glock costs relatively little to make. In a 1994 patent lawsuit in the U.S., Glock estimated its profit margin per pistol at 68%

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147036107809.htm

 

[twofifty]

My LE agency will issue a Glock, but I'm not a lowest bidder kind of guy. As long as they allow personal sidearms, that's what I'll use.

So your duty firearm is a Glock?