What's wrong with Glock?

[armoredman]

Rusty, Burk, thanks - my Dept is about 6000+ sworn staff, and the only training ammo we use that is reloaded is the 37mm baton rounds. I also CANNOT get them to let me take the once fired brass...it gets counted and dumped into the landfill under armed escort. I kid thee not.
If Glocks cost more than $75 to make, then after import tariffs and such, expenses such as shipping, storage, distribution and such means Glock is taking a major hit on LE contracts, at least the one I have knowledge of at this time. No, I can't say what the price point was for that one.

 

[CraigC]

What's wrong with Glock?

Nothing, I just found something I like better. As I suspect lots of other folks have. I shot them for 15yrs, starting with a G21 and later a G19 but sold/traded them several years ago and don't miss them. I prefer the XD for a disposable polymer auto and the 1911 above all else.

While S & W (under different management) and Ruger were kowtowing to the Clinton administration during the AWB...

S&W signed an agreement, it was that or go under. Ruger made the mistake of trying to comromise with Congress over magazine capacity in an effort to stave off a more comprehensive ban and lawsuits that were crippling the industry. What we got was a doublecross and the AWB. Both are domestic companies that were spending millions defending a legal industry against litigation. Glock is a foreign company and was under no such strain.

Big difference, get your facts straight.

 

[burk]

Rusty, Burk, thanks - my Dept is about 6000+ sworn staff, and the only training ammo we use that is reloaded is the 37mm baton rounds. I also CANNOT get them to let me take the once fired brass...it gets counted and dumped into the landfill under armed escort. I kid thee not.
If Glocks cost more than $75 to make, then after import tariffs and such, expenses such as shipping, storage, distribution and such means Glock is taking a major hit on LE contracts, at least the one I have knowledge of at this time. No, I can't say what the price point was for that one.

Glock probably is, They gave Glocks to major departments back in the 90's in trade for their old Smiths. They felt that being carried by LE gave them instant credibility with the much larger civilian market, and it did. At one point they controlled almost 75% of the issued weapons market. For quite a while they were really the only serious game in town. In the early 90's a new one retailed for about $425-450, and Hi-Powers or 1911's from quality makers were going for $700. I remember working in a gun shop out of college in the early 80's and the dream gun was a Smith 19 or 66 because that what well equipped LE had. I bought my first one on a police discount for like $325 in the early 90's (23). I doubt the LE price is much higher today. but the volume they do in the civilian market is still quite impressive.

S&W signed an agreement, it was that or go under. Ruger made the mistake of trying to comromise with Congress over magazine capacity in an effort to stave off a more comprehensive ban and lawsuits that were crippling the industry. What we got was a doublecross and the AWB. Both are domestic companies that were spending millions defending a legal industry against litigation. Glock is a foreign company and was under no such strain.

Big difference, get your facts straight.

What I was saying was that at a time when a couple of big domestic companies (under different management than today) didn't stand up for the 2nd amendment, Glock did. Glock ran trades with major departments replacing earlier generation guns with newer models and in so doing acquired and circulated more pre-ban mags on the market than about any other manufacturer during the Clinton Ban. And you're forgetting Glock was involved in major litigation too. And Glock had to combat the whole "terrorist gun" myth.

I personally think anyone into history and firearms should read Glock, The Rise of America's gun. I suspect Glocks marketing is probably one the key factors in the revival of American gun culture. And no I'm not saying they were perfect by any means, only that it like the history of the AK is a great story. And they were great at marketing, seeing a need, and responding to it. And there is no doubt that they were ahead of their time.

 

[RustyShackelford]

FUD.....

The US economic theory; FUD helped push the "gun culture" or expanded gun buying.
Glock was just in the right place at the right time.
The increase in gun buying & CCWs is not due to slick marketing by S&W, SIG Sauer or Glock. It's also not the media villian; the NRA .
People rushed out to buy new guns because; A they wanted a CCW & needed a handgun B they thought incorrectly that somebody wants to take their guns or they will lose the right to buy guns.

These scares & hype were a boon to the US gun industry, not just Glock USA.

Rusty

 

[Slater]

I'd heard that the Glock 21 Gen 4 was the success story of the Gen 4 Glocks.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Shooting report....

I just sent about 240 .45acp rounds downrange today.
I used my Glock 21 .45acp generation 04 pistol. The brass cases did fly all over but I was in a cramped shooting bay.
I had 0 problems & no jams or double feeds with any of the 230gr FMJ, MagSafe SWAT or Critical Duty 220gr +P.
The 21 cleaned up fast & was back up in no time.
I used Ballistol & followed the tips/advice of Youtube.com gun channel host; Hickock45.

Overall I had 0 complaints or problems with the Glock 21 gen 04 .45acp & would tote it concealed or wear it in a duty rig.
I plan to buy more Hornady Critical Duty .45acp & maybe some Corbon PowRball for back up magazines.

Rusty

 

[burk]

The US economic theory; FUD helped push the "gun culture" or expanded gun buying.
Glock was just in the right place at the right time.
The increase in gun buying & CCWs is not due to slick marketing by S&W, SIG Sauer or Glock. It's also not the media villian; the NRA .
People rushed out to buy new guns because; A they wanted a CCW & needed a handgun B they thought incorrectly that somebody wants to take their guns or they will lose the right to buy guns.

These scares & hype were a boon to the US gun industry, not just Glock USA.

Rusty

Rusty, I agree, but what Glock did was create a whole new class of firearm that people had to have. Everyone who was into guns had their S & W model 10's or 19's for years. Smith and Colt hadn't given them much reason to replace them. And them came the Miami FBI shootout, and LE deciding they were under gunned and Glock was there. Low priced, reliable, and good LE grade firepower for the street. They changed the way we think about guns. I agree it wasn't "just Glock", no doubt economics, opening of the CCW market and the increase in gang violence all contributed.

 

[burk]

I'd heard that the Glock 21 Gen 4 was the success story of the Gen 4 Glocks.

The 21 Gen4 has cured my 1911 addictions.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #57....

I don't agree with #57.
Glocks did not re-invent the wheel re; polymer pistols or push the big changes in gun trends.
Heckler & Koch sold a few polymer frame 9mm pistols in the early 1980s. These guns like the VP70 9x19(which was intended to be a platform/PDW) could have taken the Glock path but Gaston Glock's business savvy & plans spearheaded the rapid growth.

I do agree that US cops wanted to measure up with the street gangs & "cocaine cowboys" but the SIGs, Walthers & Beretta 92Fs(M9s) had a huge share of the market. S&W sputtered a bit then rolled out the 3rd gen series. That was 1988 or so.

 

[jdmb03]

With all that being said, if you follow the news, the Indiana State Police and the Pennsylvania State Police both purchased generation 4 Glock 21 pistols and outfitted officers with the Glock 21s. However, both departments experienced issues with the Glocks and Glock did not correct the issues. As such, both departments have begun equipping officers with the SIG-Sauer P227 pistols.

This leads me to question what happened?

You gave two examples out of several thousand police agencies that still carry Glocks. I don't see the problem.

 

[HexHead]

What I was saying was that at a time when a couple of big domestic companies (under different management than today) didn't stand up for the 2nd amendment, Glock did. Glock ran trades with major departments replacing earlier generation guns with newer models and in so doing acquired and circulated more pre-ban mags on the market than about any other manufacturer during the Clinton Ban.

Glock wasn't giving departments Gen2 guns in trade for the Gen1s in any kind of support for the 2nd amendment. They made millions selling grandfathered pre-ban mags that came with those Gen1 trade ins. It was all about the money. Perhaps you didn't read that book closely enough?

 

[RustyShackelford]

Purchase orders; SIGs, Glocks....

As stated, the PA state police(which has a documented # of approx 4700 sworn troopers) only requested a formal bid for 150 SIG Sauer P227Rs.
That doesn't quite mean they changed or are going to stop using Glock 21 gen 04s just yet.
The competitive bid is May 2014.

If the agency(or any other LE department) purchased new pistols for every sworn member then you can call it a switch.
As posted too, that's based on the choices or mandates of a chief/sheriff.

 

[burk]

I don't agree with #57.
Glocks did not re-invent the wheel re; polymer pistols or push the big changes in gun trends.
Heckler & Koch sold a few polymer frame 9mm pistols in the early 1980s. These guns like the VP70 9x19(which was intended to be a platform/PDW) could have taken the Glock path but Gaston Glock's business savvy & plans spearheaded the rapid growth.

I do agree that US cops wanted to measure up with the street gangs & "cocaine cowboys" but the SIGs, Walthers & Beretta 92Fs(M9s) had a huge share of the market. S&W sputtered a bit then rolled out the 3rd gen series. That was 1988 or so.

Rusty, as someone who was in the business then in both the retail and wholesale end, I can assure NO ONE was banging down the doors for HK VP70. Glock made the first mass market Hi-cap polymer gun, plain and simple. And while Sig and Beretta (Walther was not a significant player in the US market then) did follow and compete, for a stretch in the early 90's if you wanted the gun the cops depended on, you bought a Glock. They had over 70% of the LE market at one point. The reality is even in the civilian market at that time, the other guys were just competing for Glocks leftovers. And no I'm not arguing they didn't make or don't make fine guns. But Smith had close to 60% of the Le market in 1985, by 95 they had less than 20%. Third generation not withstanding they got caught with their pants down and the Sigma didn't help.

Was Glock lucky? In the right place at the right time? Savy businessmen? Marketed by guys who knew how to play the then very corrupt LE procurement market? There is no question that they introduced their gun at just the right time and it became a bit of a "peoples gun" like a VW or the AK. And they deserve to be respected right up there with the 1911, AK, Mauser K98, MI Garand, as iconic history changing weapons. Is it possible even likely that if Glock hadn't answered the question some other company would have. Perhaps, but I doubt it would have been an American company, at that time American manufacturing was far to staid to be that innovative

Glock wasn't giving departments Gen2 guns in trade for the Gen1s in any kind of support for the 2nd amendment. They made millions selling grandfathered pre-ban mags that came with those Gen1 trade ins. It was all about the money. Perhaps you didn't read that book closely enough?

No other company was buying or attempting to buy back significant quantities of it's pre-ban mags from LE to get them into the hands of civilians. Did they make money on it? Yep, so what? They also got sued for it by a group of concerned mayors. The reality is this, Glock was the only large pistol company that made an effort to keep large capacity magazines in the hands of the public during the Clinton Gun ban. For the record it was a shrewd business move, no doubt, a Glock 19 with a 10 round magazine is a lot less competitive gun in the market than one with a 15 round mag. And they lost money on the net trades with LE trading new stamped LE mags and firearms for 10 year old guns and used mags.

 

[Drail]

Glocks are top heavy unbalanced pistols (steel slide on top of a flyweight frame) that become even more unbalanced as the magazine empties. Every shot gives a little more muzzle flip. A 1911 will do the same thing of course but the effect is barely noticeable to most people. The first time I shot one in 1990 was also the last time I shot one. The grip is about as ergonomic as a hair dryer. But lots of guys seem to love them anyway. In all honesty - one can learn to deal with these things and do very well with a Glock. It's just more work to shoot one accurately and fast than I wanna mess with. (compared to a big old heavy 5 in. 1911)

 

[Biohazard1993]

However, both departments experienced issues with the Glocks and Glock did not correct the issues. As such, both departments have begun equipping officers with the SIG-Sauer P227 pistols.

This leads me to question what happened?

Me too as I live in butler county PA and have not seen very many state boys carrying sigs at all. I have talked to a few previously and thought it was kind of odd to see your post due to the fact that the two or three I have talked to in the few weeks before you posted this had nothing bad to say about the GLOCK that they were still carrying... not that I ask them directly about their guns but usually they are nice and shoot the crap with me an talk about such nuisances like having to switch firearms, vehicles, etc. I have a feeling that the news may be over-exaggerating the story slightly... not that that has happened before or anything

 

[JR24]

Glocks are top heavy unbalanced pistols (steel slide on top of a flyweight frame) that become even more unbalanced as the magazine empties. Every shot gives a little more muzzle flip. A 1911 will do the same thing of course but the effect is barely noticeable to most people. The first time I shot one in 1990 was also the last time I shot one. The grip is about as ergonomic as a hair dryer. But lots of guys seem to love them anyway. In all honesty - one can learn to deal with these things and do very well with a Glock. It's just more work to shoot one accurately and fast than I wanna mess with. (compared to a big old heavy 5 in. 1911)

To each their own. But in my very personal opinion I disagree. Picked up a Glock 21 recently (after years of Glock hating) and instantly shot it as well (in terms of rapid, combat distance fire) as my 5" 1911's, and BETTER in all areas than my aluminum framed commanders. Sure my nice 1911's shoot better slow fire, bullseye.

I found recoil LESS than even my all steel 5" 1911's in my hands (a ton less than the aluminum 1911's). The Glock 21 is a real pussy-cat in terms of recoil, very, very pleasant .45 ACP to shoot.

 

[benzy2]

To each their own. But in my very personal opinion I disagree. Picked up a Glock 21 recently (after years of Glock hating) and instantly shot it as well (in terms of rapid, combat distance fire) as my 5" 1911's, and BETTER in all areas than my aluminum framed commanders. Sure my nice 1911's shoot better slow fire, bullseye.

I found recoil LESS than even my all steel 5" 1911's in my hands (a ton less than the aluminum 1911's). The Glock 21 is a real pussy-cat in terms of recoil, very, very pleasant .45 ACP to shoot.

I found the same to be true of my gen3 21SF. From the first shot out of the barrel it has shot well. As much as the good old boy in me doesn't want to say it, I shoot that pistol as well if not better than any 1911 design I've owned in rapid fire. When slow, methodical shooting is the game, it's all about the same but I find the 21 to be faster on target from shot to shot. I'll always have a decent 1911 for it's history and the emotions it brings when shooting it, but the 21 has been a better pistol for most purposes I have. Add to the fact I'd be spending $1000-$1500 for a 1911 I'd trust for more than range use and the value aspect of a $599 Glock 21 makes it next to impossible to ignore as a great value tool.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #65....

I stand by my remarks. A formal bid was put out for about 150 SIG Sauer P227Rs by the PA State Police in Harrisburg PA. Now, these selected armorers or range cadre could just be doing a in depth T&E before the agency cuts any big checks. The poor job with the .45GAP may have slowed the selection process down. Which, in my view is a good idea.
Sworn troopers & investigators/SWAT need a sidearm that withstand the elements & meet the rigid standards. I am 100% sure some PA troopers will wish to stay with Glock 21s but as posted, it's not confirmed or documented that they are going to change.

I'd be curious to know who had the state agency's duty round contract? Golden Saber? HST? Ranger T/T Series? Speer/CCI?

Rusty
PS; go Steelers!

 

[PabloJ]

Nothing wrong with them. The weapon requires very good holster preferably polymer. Flesh burns are painful and foot shots given high degree innervation even more so.

 

[mikemyers]

I got to shoot a Glock for the first time last week. Was at the range, in Colorado, and rented one for a couple of hours. 9mm. Very light. Didn't impress me, compared to all metal guns, but I wanted to see what it was like. The sights were the "three white dots that you line up". I didn't have my shooting glasses, and had trouble with my normal variable-focus lenses moving my head around until the front sight was clear and sharp - but for me, the normal target sights work far better.

As to accuracy, I couldn't shoot it anywhere nearly as well as my 357 S&W firing 38 Special ammo, but while the guys running the range thought I did well, I was very disappointed.

Since you guys seem to know a lot about Glock, at 15 yards, what kind of grouping should a reasonably good (but not expert) shooter expect to achieve? I'd like to try one again, wearing the right glasses, but even with everything perfect, I'm not sure it's that good of a gun for (only) target shooting.

Didn't think of this before, but up above I read "Glocks are top heavy unbalanced pistols (steel slide on top of a flyweight frame) that become even more unbalanced as the magazine empties. Every shot gives a little more muzzle flip. A 1911 will do the same thing of course but the effect is barely noticeable to most people." I think that was happening to me as well - which explains why the guys at the range told me to hold the gun much tighter.

 

[jdmb03]

As to accuracy, I couldn't shoot it anywhere nearly as well as my 357 S&W firing 38 Special ammo, but while the guys running the range thought I did well, I was very disappointed.

Since you guys seem to know a lot about Glock, at 15 yards, what kind of grouping should a reasonably good (but not expert) shooter expect to achieve? I'd like to try one again, wearing the right glasses, but even with everything perfect, I'm not sure it's that good of a gun for (only) target shooting.

You shot it once, give it more time. My Glock 19 is a tack driver. I'm a revolver guy and the G19 is very accurate for me.

 

[tarosean]

My Glock 19 is a tack driver. I'm a revolver guy and the G19 is very accurate for me.

It been my experience, owning 6 different Glocks. There is quite a bit of variance in the accuracy dept. For example: The most accurate Glock in my safe is a gen4 19. Consequently, my least accurate Glock owned, was also a gen4 19 that I recently sold.

 

[Biohazard1993]

I stand by my remarks. A formal bid was put out for about 150 SIG Sauer P227Rs by the PA State Police in Harrisburg PA. Now, these selected armorers or range cadre could just be doing a in depth T&E before the agency cuts any big checks. The poor job with the .45GAP may have slowed the selection process down. Which, in my view is a good idea.
Sworn troopers & investigators/SWAT need a sidearm that withstand the elements & meet the rigid standards. I am 100% sure some PA troopers will wish to stay with Glock 21s but as posted, it's not confirmed or documented that they are going to change.

I'd be curious to know who had the state agency's duty round contract? Golden Saber? HST? Ranger T/T Series? Speer/CCI?

Rusty
PS; go Steelers!

I think they should just kill two birds with one stone and stick more to the original slimmer designed size GLOCK instead of the large frame 45/10mm frame... and just give them the GLOCK 31 GEN 4. The 357 sig is one of the rounds medical professionals cringe at when knowing they are going to be working on someone shot with it and being ballistically close to the 357 magnum it's a doosy. My old man's 32 GEN 4 shoots very straight, not much more recoil then the 9mm variant due to the GEN 4 springs, and is easier to carry and wield in my opinion compared to the thicker frame GLOCKs. Others' mileage may vary of course.

 

[RustyShackelford]

#73 reply....

I disagree with post #73.
Many large LE agencies like the NM State Police, Texas DPS & a few in Washington state switched from the .357sig to the full size M&P in 9x19mm.
Author & tactics trainer Massad Ayoob put out a recent article in the Harris Publications; Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement about the same topic.

To my limited knowledge, Texas DPS has returned to the SIGs in .357sig & .45acp but that was due to a big dispute with Smith & Wesson over the M&P 9mm sidearms not the .357sig caliber.
The .357sig has many + factors; it's fast, powerful & feeds(cycle) great. The -s are that it's loud, hard to buy(find) & wears out parts faster.

A common target shooter or CCW may fire about 2000-4000 .357sig rounds per year. A state trooper or LE cadet in training may fire that much in 3/4 months.
A .40 or .45acp makes more sense to me than a .357sig or 10mm for a LE agency in 2014.

Some progressive state agencies like KY issue Glock 22s than give each trooper a Glock 27 gen 04 .40 to use as a back up or off-duty.
A trooper can carry both Glock pistols & use the 15rd duty mags in either pistol in a emergency.

Rusty

 

[Biohazard1993]

I wouldn't say the .357 sig is hard to find, at least where I live that is a miss statement that I hear often. I have never walked into any of my local gun stores, cabelas, or even my buddy that has a small arms business and ever seen it void of 357 sig; let alone online distributers. I would say that there is less variety. A hard to find round is 45-120 or 6mm handgun ammunition. I understand that people get scared or concerned when they don't see a thousand manufactures make a round in infinite options but at the end of the day a few good manufacturers and a couple good bullets on the cartridge are all that is needed to defend oneself or others in the case of a leo. When your talking about a flat nose bullet hitting muzzle energy and velocity that it does with 13+ capacity I wouldn't say I need very many more options minus armor piercing. I feel that people mistake "hard to find" with "not very many options compared to 9mm and such" (example; fmj, fmj hollow point, flat nose partial jacket, flat nose fmj, flat nose hollow point, R.I.P tip... a lot of flavors by a lot of different manufacturers) which I find myself personally not needing anyway; I carry Remington plain jane umc in my 9mm. The few companies that pop the 357 sig round out are kinda similar in velocity and muzzle energy and are an easy transition for any shooter in case the person's "normal" 357 sig load is not available. Very few times has my local store not had my Remington umc 357 sig or my fiocchi 357 sig; two great rounds by the way. I see why a lot of people want a lot of options as I sit here and look at all the oddball goodies I want for an upcoming m4 project but when it comes to ammunition I personally have never understood the hype of a thousand different rounds that one could not possibly get well acquainted with in his or her life time to use them all efficiently. I greatly agree upon the noise being a good factor for leos because it is a very loud round that can be very quickly annoying for both the shooter and citizens surrounding