When Officers Reed and Malloy Pull us Over

[alfsauve]

Had a motorist go for his gun at a traffic stop in Cobb County(GA) this past week. From the newsmedia description I think it was an appendix carry. Shot twice I think and is in critical at Grady.

 

[wayneinFL]

I pull way off so my passenger-side wheels are off the asphalt. This keeps the officer's butt out of traffic.
All windows lowered to prevent reflection and allow easy visibility. Engine remains completely turned-off.

I do that, pull way off to the right. But I noticed more often officers are coming up to the right hand side of the vehicle anyway.

Until 6 months ago, I had manual windows. I do NOT move fast at a traffic stop- I learned my lesson on that one. My last truck had a mount for a laptop, and it was almost impossible for my fat ass to climb over it.

I've had a couple of officers get really upset about it. Glad I have power windows now.

 

[Durango_Dave]

Everyone is talking about very explicit steps to avoid getting shot by the police. That's not necessary. A cop won't shoot you for not following some unwritten rules. Yes maybe you want to be extra careful but this idiot got shot for blatant disregard of the officers orders. He went FAR out of his way to get shot.

I guess if you want one unwritten rule it would be not to draw your gun on police or you will die. There were 6 armed cops around this guy.

 

[Kleanbore]

Everyone is talking about very explicit steps to avoid getting shot by the police. That's not necessary. A cop won't shoot you for not following some unwritten rules

An officer may not employ deadly force for one's "not doing" anything.

Deadly force is justified if and only if the officer (or a civilian, for that matter) has a basis for reasonably believing that ding so is immediately necessary to defend against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

An action that appears to be reaching for a weapon can result in such a belief. The steps suggested in the OP are intended to minimize the risk of that happening. Remember that.

this idiot got shot for blatant disregard of the officers orders

NO! An officer may not shoot to enforce compliance with his orders. The officers fired in self defense because the man was reaching for a firearm.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Cops are used to folks digging through their glovebox or console to look for registration and proof of insurance to have it ready. Nearly everybody does it. They're common, expected movements, not furtive.

 

[Durango_Dave]

By far the main reason anyone is ever shot by the police is when they don't follow the orders of the police.

When I cop says "raise your hands" or "show me your hands" or "don't reach in there" he is worried about his safety. If you don't follow his orders you could get shot.

I'm not saying a cop can shoot you for not following orders. Things escalate quickly when you don't follow orders from the police. When a cop pulls you over and asks for your ID don't reply "I don't have to show you my ID. You didn't have probable case to pull me over." You are only making things worse.

If a cop says you are being detained or try to put handcuffs on you, don't fight him. That only makes things worse. During arrests many people resist. No one want to be arrested but resisting makes things worse. Police can use force to arrest someone but resisting turns into a fight.

If you don't follow orders things may go sideways.

 

[Blue Jays]

<snip> "…By far the main reason anyone is ever shot by the police is when they don't follow the orders of the police. If you don't follow orders things may go sideways…"

Which is also why they should avoid yelling confusing unclear things at (occasionally) innocent motorists, too. Loudly barking, "STAND DOWN! STAND DOWN, motherf*****r!" does not help matters, for example.

 

[Durango_Dave]

Which is also why they should avoid yelling confusing unclear things at (occasionally) innocent motorists, too. Loudly barking, "STAND DOWN! STAND DOWN, motherf*****r!" does not help matters.

So true. Police are trained to have only one cop communicating with the suspect to avoid confusion. In the video for this thread the guy near the suspects window does the communication. If another cop thinks it's time for the suspect to get out of the car, he should bite his tongue. Only one cop should be giving commands.

 

[shafter]

So true. Police are trained to have only one cop communicating with the suspect to avoid confusion. In the video for this thread the guy near the suspects window does the communication. If another cop thinks it's time for the suspect to get out of the car, he should bite his tongue. Only one cop should be giving commands.

Unfortunately man cops either aren't trained to do this or forget. Happens way too often.

 

[crstrode]

I am Hispanic from Northern NM and could easily pass as Afghani, Saudi, Syrian, or any other Mid Eastern threat. The officer was a young very white man named Smith, most likely from one of the nearby Mormon communities. I am used to profiling and have lived with it all my life. After 9-11 was an interesting time, I've been stopped by TSA, had my hands sniffed by the scanners, bags searched, etc. But by simply complying with this young officers requests in a respectful manner there were zero issues.
Be polite, show respect.

As a lilly-white, blue-eyed man, I've also been been stopped by TSA, had my hands sniffed by the scanners, bags searched, put through the whole-body imager, etc.

However, not being a paranoid racist, never gave it a second thought.

 

[Old Dog]

All windows lowered to prevent reflection and allow easy visibility.

Yeah, most folks up here wouldn't think of this even during the two weeks of the year it's not raining. The officer should politely ask you to roll down a specific window should he need a better look in the rear of the vehicle or backseat area.

Cops are used to folks digging through their glovebox or console to look for registration and proof of insurance to have it ready. Nearly everybody does it. They're common, expected movements, not furtive.

Yes, thank you Shawn for injecting common sense into the thread.

This is a topic many tend to way-overthink. It's essentially a matter of attitude and tone, along with keeping your hands visible while letting the officer know if you have to retrieve an item from a visor, console, glovebox.

Unfortunately man cops either aren't trained to do this or forget. Happens way too often.

While I'd agree that it happens way too often, I can tell you from experience that, especially after a pursuit, everyone gets amped up, and it typically occurs when more than two officers are on scene (especially in rapidly evolving circumstances when everyone jumps out of their units at once and runs to the suspect vehicle). There can be anxiousness on both sides. Officers are only human, and sometimes it takes a couple minutes or more for everyone to calm down and get organized.

 

[Frulk]

This was a 22 year old American citizen (his bogus claim of sovereignty notwithstanding) with an apparently clean background based on the news reports. He wasn’t speeding, he apparently was not impaired and was pulled over for not having a legal license plate.

I know I’m going to get flamed by THR faithful but I’m going to take a different point of view on this. LEO officer had his passport. Could have gone back to his cruiser and ran the persons info. If clean (and by all accounts in the news background was) could have gave him a ticket and sent him on his way.

Then, on the next traffic stop he would have a history ( or if he failed to report to court). However, young man got under his skin and this progressed to the point that it did. Not defending the driver or his actions at all. Not saying the LEO was wrong. Just that LEO could have went a different route other than insisting he was going to remove the driver from the vehicle based on the original violation which was fairly benign considering what occurs on a daily basis out there on an LEOs beat.

 

[Kleanbore]

LEO officer had his passport

But not his license and registration.

could have gave him a ticket and sent him on his way.

If he refused to sign the ticket, he would have been arrested.

 

[Frulk]

For me to go deeper into this discussion would violate THR guidelines as it’s off topic in regards to this sites primary focus.

I’ll just finish with this. I would not have done what this young man did but what most of the members recommend doing in previous comments. Never have had an issue with any LEO encounter (carrying or not).

 

[GooseGestapo]

Another sage piece of advice!

UTAH ain’t California! (I love Utah!)
Georgia AINT OREGON! (23 arrested for violent protest in Atlanta last week!).
Alabama AINT L.A. (though we locals do call Lower Alabama, LA!).


Human nature hasn’t changed in over 2,000yrs
Romans 13:4 !

 

[shafter]

It's probably worth mentioning that law enforcement can request the driver or any passengers to get out of the vehicle at any time on a traffic stop. The Supreme Court has upheld this on multiple occasions and cites officer safety.

The takeaway is that don't give an officer reason to want to get you out of the vehicle, but if it happens have a plan for how you will inform the officer that you are carrying.

 

[Old Dog]

It's probably worth mentioning that law enforcement can request the driver or any passengers to get out of the vehicle at any time on a traffic stop. The Supreme Court has upheld this on multiple occasions and cites officer safety.

The takeaway is that don't give an officer reason to want to get you out of the vehicle, but if it happens have a plan for how you will inform the officer that you are carrying.

Current doctrine, at least as far as my last department went, was you did not want anyone exiting the vehicle unless it was a felony hot stop, and only then, after you had at least two (preferably four) back-up officers on the scene. If it's a routine stop, unless you're getting the driver out for an FST, there's zero reason for anyone to get out of the vehicle. That's officer safety.

 

[lemaymiami]

Not all interactions between people go well...pretty simple concept. Each of us has a variety of choices when dealing with an officer who's doing his or her job... One thing I can state with some certainty is that it's a very bad idea to go out of your way to scare the officer you're dealing with - at any time since you automatically set off a series of (hopefully) well trained responses. The closest I ever came to shooting someone on a traffic stop (or a stop for any reason...) came when an individual I'd stopped who was coming from the scene of a domestic disturbance call very early on a Sunday morning, reached for his glove box with me standing right next to him (suspect was seated inside his car, window down, apparently co-operative, very relaxed and confident). As the glove box opened he removed a 45 auto and instinctively I drew down and stuck my service revolver (years ago before we all went to auto pistols in my area) in his ear ready to shoot when he casually tossed the gun over his shoulder into the back seat.... and it took me several minutes to get " un-puckered" and explain to him how close we both came to a bad ending... Turned out he was the subject in the call (an ex-boyfriend) - but had not broken any laws and was eventually sent on his way... That firearm wasn't stolen (this was long before concealed carry permits were widely available here in Florida and the gun was sitting on top of his registration in the glove box...). Scared me spit-less (there might be kids reading this...).

If you choose to carry a sidearm you must realize that it raises the stakes for anyone dealing with you - good guy, bad guy, ordinary citizen, or police officer. If it were me I'd be going out of my way not to scare anyone with my behavior - but there are some folks who can't get through their day without controversy, argument, or even a fight... and that's very dangerous when dealing with a police officer who has no idea who you are - or what you've been up to, or whether you intend to assault or kill him or her in a confrontation, where there was no cause at all to not be a "good citizen" and do everything possible to get through a police encounter without turning it into a tragedy...

You can bet that the officers on that scene that day were badly shook by what happened. That's the kind of thing nightmares are made of for any cop. Very glad I'm long out of that world.

 

[shafter]

Current doctrine, at least as far as my last department went, was you did not want anyone exiting the vehicle unless it was a felony hot stop, and only then, after you had at least two (preferably four) back-up officers on the scene. If it's a routine stop, unless you're getting the driver out for an FST, there's zero reason for anyone to get out of the vehicle. That's officer safety.

It depends on the situation. Sometimes it's better to have then out of the vehicle sitting on the curb. Especially if they're fidgety and the windows have some tint and you can't see what they are up to. It's sutuationally dependent that's why are allowed to do either one.

 

[The Night Rider]

What I think is really funny about the title of this discussion is that when Reed & Mallory stopped people the driver almost routinely got out of the car and came and talked to the cops and Reed & Malloy didn't say anything about it.

 

[The Night Rider]

I showed this to Kathy Jackson once and she thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread.

My registration and proof of insurance are in a little packet clipped to my visor.

I would think it would be self evident what I'm doing when I flip down that visor and reach for the paperwork. My license is in my hands as soon as I pull my keys out of the ignition.

Having said that, I don't think the cops are pulling people over in Colorado Springs anymore.

Everybody speeds, and I mean like 10 to 15 miles over the speed limit. I see two or three cars every time I go out that have no license plates on them.

And I can't remember the last time I saw a cop doing street patrol.

I've said this before a bunch of times and I'm going to say it again.

I worked as a security guard during the lockdowns. In Colorado Springs. Just like the movie says my job was observe & report. I could ask people to leave the property. if they didn't I called the police and the police came out and gave them a ticket for trespassing.

I also called in things like if I saw a door that shouldn't be open in a business obviously open I would call the police for that and I did a couple of times.

By the time I retired in October 21 I was calling the police for these minor incidents and dispatch was telling me they weren't coming.

I had one meth head that was living at a shopping center that I was supposed to check, I called the police every night for a week before I finally got one to show up and when she did she got out of her cop car , handed me her business card with the call screen number on it for my report and told me she wasn't going to talk to the guy unless she absolutely had to and she told me straight up that political considerations were the primary motivating factor in that decision.

Bottom line the last thing in the world that I worry about is interacting with a cop

 

[Speedo66]

Strange breed indeed. Mentally ill people imagine themselves into states of being all the time. A lot of them convince other people that they are correct, and those people follow blindly. Believing that you are not subject to the laws, and law enforcement of the country that you are in, can result in some pretty harsh reality. Sad.

Yeah, there were online classes on how to posture yourself as a sovereign citizen so you didn’t have to pay taxes. I’m sure the IRS accepted that. Some also believed they didn’t require licenses, plates, or insurance.

One thing I would add, if you have dark tinted windows, with just about everyone having power windows, it doesn’t hurt to roll all of them down if you’re stopped, especially at night. Interior light on at night is a given.

I always tell my friends if you are stopped, the best thing you can do is keep the atmosphere light, if you can be humorous and get the cop to laugh, even better. As soon as you argue, your chances of escaping without a ticket are practically nil.

 

[Old Dog]

I always tell my friends if you are stopped, the best thing you can do is keep the atmosphere light, if you can be humorous and get the cop to laugh, even better. As soon as you argue, your chances of escaping without a ticket are practically nil.

At the risk of not meeting the current standards of political correctness and/or wokeness...

One thing that will trigger any officer and practically guarantee a ticket (at the least) is when the driver says something like, "You just pulled me over because I'm ________ (insert name of minority group)"

Like I can see you through your heavily (usually illegally, but we stopped ticketing for that long ago) tinted windows when you perform a California stop at one stop sign, fail to signal for two consecutive left turns, change lanes four times without signaling, cross the center line or fog line several times, oh, and it's dark as sh** with steady sideways rain coming down...

 

[Alte Schule]

Driving back to Texas from Washington D.C. with the family some 30 years ago I was stopped for speeding (65 in a 60) on the interstate in North Carolina. As a fellow LEO the state trooper was about to extend some professional courtesy and write a warning citation. That is until I opened my big mouth and said something about I was glad not to "have to go down to the courthouse and see Andy to pay my fine". Got the ticket and a five minute lecture on the side of the road about the professionalism of the North Carolina State Police.

 

[Old Dog]

That is until I opened my big mouth and said something about I was glad not to "have to go down to the courthouse and see Andy to pay my fine". Got the ticket and a five minute lecture on the side of the road about the professionalism of the North Carolina State Police.

Had a friend who got pulled over in a small Eastern WA town and asked the cop, "Which one are you, Andy or Barney?"

$166.00 ticket. The response was "Sign here please, sir." When he complained to me, I told him he earned the ticket.

Other things not to say:

"Does your mommy know you're working as a cop?" (Said once to one of my guys who looked about all of sixteen, even with his "pornstache.")

"You look like a cop, only much shorter, isn't there a height requirement?."