When Officers Reed and Malloy Pull us Over

[The Night Rider]

I think it was Claude Werner that said this but there's a thing called the "Reasonable Good Person Theory".

I'm a reasonable good person, in my worldview that should be obvious. If I reach in my backseat to get my documents for the cops it would never occur to me to think that they don't realize that I'm not reaching for that AR-15 in the back seat because I'm a "Reasonable Good Person".

According to Claude if it was in fact him that said it, that's how these incidents happen.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

My wife and I encountered a paradigm shift in regards to law enforcement, yesterday. My wife coming home on the four lane encountered an accident scene. There was the the usual fire truck, tow truck, cones and squad cars with their lights on, and nobody on their feet directing traffic. She saw a traffic wide gap in the cones, and assumed it was only a lane closure, and moved to the left and proceeded slowly around the fire truck. A squad came up behind her at high speed with his lights on. She pulled over. The officer pulled along side on her left, never got out of the squad and rolled down the window.
He proceeded to scream, "What the f*ck are you doing?!!" and repeat this three or four times, screaming F-Bombs and pounding on his steering wheel, threatening to send her a citation in the F-cking mail. He directed her to pull over, and await the scene to be cleared, which she did. My wife is a pretty tough cookie, but she was pretty shocked. He backed up and took his former position. Now, I retired in law enforcement after more than 30 years. If I had done something like that on the job to a member of the public, I would be worried that it might be career ending.
I wanted to call the Shift Commander to give the officer an on the spot correction, but he had threatened my wife with a citation in the mail, and she didn't want me to call.

So, I put this in my experience file, and wonder....what the heck?? I hope this isn't the face of law enforcement . My point is, if this officer loses his cool on traffic situations, how is he when he needs to make decisions on lethal force??

That behavior is relatively common now, the world has changed a great deal in the last few years. Use it as your baseline, not as an outlier.

 

[Kleanbore]

That behavior is relatively common now, the world has changed a great deal in the last few years. Use it as your baseline, not as an outlier.

Do you have a supportable basis for that assertion?

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

Do you have a supportable basis for that assertion?

Youtube exists, forums exists, as does the example above. Can't do your research for you and we can't turn back the clocks, sadly.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

While the kids brain was not fully developed, the cops escalated the situation to a confrontation. They had his passport, could've run the vin and issued a citation and slipped it in the window and gotten on with their day.

While I don't subscribe to the SC movement, the cop should've known if he was entering the guys car without permission-for an unvalid registration.... he was going to get a confrontation. The kid was showing no agression. The cop didn't even ask the kid if he had a weapon in the car. There was no need to get him out of the car.

They had him blocked in. They could've sent the junior guy to Dunkin' for a dozen and coffee and sat it out. But no, they were going to show who was boss, escalated the situation and killed a guy for not registering his car.

This is the wisest line of thinking, which is why it simply isn't encouraged anymore.

 

[Kleanbore]

Youtube exists, forums exists, as does the example above. Can't do your research for you and we can't turn back the clocks, sadly.

That response is useless. Try again.

 

[Old Dog]

That behavior is relatively common now, the world has changed a great deal in the last few years. Use it as your baseline, not as an outlier.

Dunno where you live or how much you get out, but just no.

 

[david58]

What I think is really funny about the title of this discussion is that when Reed & Mallory stopped people the driver almost routinely got out of the car and came and talked to the cops and Reed & Malloy didn't say anything about it.

That used to be what we were taught to do.

 

[bdickens]

That behavior is relatively common now, the world has changed a great deal in the last few years. Use it as your baseline, not as an outlier.

Bovine Excrement.

Youtube exists, forums exists, as does the example above. Can't do your research for you and we can't turn back the clocks, sadly.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you've never had to do any real research - you know, the kind that gets reviewed and dissected....

 

[Jeff White]

Youtube exists, forums exists, as does the example above. Can't do your research for you and we can't turn back the clocks, sadly.

Anecdotal reports by anonymous people with unknown motives is hardly research. It’s gossip. You’ve got to do a lot better than that…..

 

[Kleanbore]

This is the wisest line of thinking,...

"Wisest"? No. It would not meet the requirements of the law. We have already explained why.

Attorney Andrew Branca explained the motorist's obligations and the officers' duties quite well.

All motorists should know what to do and why they must do it.

which is why it simply isn't encouraged anymore.

That makes no sense at all.

 

[The Night Rider]

This discussion is becoming more and more confusing to me.

I'm going to assume that we don't have any Sovereign Citizen types among our active members. I'm also going to assume that if we did they would have commented on this discussion.

The stated intent of this discussion was to talk about how to comport yourself during a traffic stop. In that context The Sovereign Citizen movement is irrelevant BUT we keep coming back to it because of the original video. I think this is a good topic but I think the choice of videos was really poor.

As far as the cop cussing somebody out, I don't have any problem believing that behavior is becoming more common and yes, I am only going to cite my own experience because there's really no place that quantifies that data.

People are wound pretty tight these days. Stress brings out the worst in people and I'm sorry but there has been a cultural shift. F-Bombs are socially acceptable now. It's how people talk.

The current crop of police officers are a product of the same entitlement mentality, me first, everyone gets a trophy and Heather has two mommies generation as the thugs are.

If you don't think there's been a cultural shift look at the wave of mass lootings taking place in Department Stores. Look at the Walmarts that are closing because they're losing too much money to shoplifting. Look at the police departments that no longer stop for minor traffic infractions and the no cash bail cities. There was just an incident where several hundred people took over an intersection in Chicago and held illegal drag races and when the police showed up they chased the cops away. If that's not a cultural shift I don't know what is

So yes, there's been a cultural shift. And yes people out there feel entitled to dump on you if you cross their social boundaries.

Here's an anecdote for you, yesterday morning the apartment complex that I live in had people out to clean the carpets in vacant apartments and hallways in my building. Somebody left their bicycle in the hallway. (That's a stupid thing to do because you're going to get your bike stolen) instead of moving the bike or even putting the bike in the entryway or putting the bike in the laundry room the carpet cleaner took the bike out the front door and threw it off the stairs.

I reported it to the management. I made a complaint and they didn't seem concerned about that behavior in the least.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

The current crop of police officers are a product of the same entitlement mentality, me first, everyone gets a trophy and Heather has two mommies generation as the thugs are.

Exactly. Some people here can't figure this out, apparently.

 

[Old Dog]

Exactly. Some people here can't figure this out, apparently.

Some people here are police officers or are retired from a career as a police officer, sheriff's deputy, federal officer. Others here can't figure this out, apparently. Or simply don't bother to read for comprehension.

Some people here are actually acquainted with, or friends of, police officers and their families. Others here can't figure this out, apparently.

Some people here actually have had positive experiences when dealing with police officers, either professionally or on the worst days of their lives.

Some people here do not apparently read each post in a thread nor understand context.

Some people here love to generalize, stereotype or judge people in certain occupations, based solely on what they "learn" from social media, or only on what stories they read or view on mainstream media.

I have a bad experience with a clerk in a 7-11 store who is rude and won't answer my question about how long ago the coffee was made. Do I get on Tik-Tok or THR to state that this is now the baseline of all 7-11 clerks - nationwide - and not the "outlier."? (Not usually)

Just as we get annoyed, frustrated, disappointed or angry when we detect how the typical law-abiding gun owner is the U.S. is viewed by those that believe differently than we do, then we turn around and judge the members of an entire occupational group by only our own limited experiences or what we may see in the media?

Sheesh.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm going to assume that we don't have any Sovereign Citizen types among our active members. I'm also going to assume that if we did they would have commented on this discussion.

I would make no such assumption.

The Sovereign Citizen movement is irrelevant BUT we keep coming back to it because of the original video.

I've seen no such discussion here.

I think the choice of videos was really poor.

In what way?

The current crop of police officers are a product of the same entitlement mentality, me first, everyone gets a trophy and Heather has two mommies generation as the thugs are

Dp you have a basis for that assertion?

If you don't think there's been a cultural shift look at the wave of mass lootings taking place in Department Stores. Look at the Walmarts that are closing because they're losing too much money to shoplifting. Look at the police departments that no longer stop for minor traffic infractions and the no cash bail cities. There was just an incident where several hundred people took over an intersection in Chicago and held illegal drag races and when the police showed up they chase the cops away. If that's not a cultural shift I don't know what is

Okay, but it has nothing to do with the subject.

Here's an anecdote for you, yesterday morning the apartment complex that I live in had people out to clean the carpets in vacant apartments and hallways in my building. Somebody left their bicycle in the hallway. (That's a stupid thing to do because you're going to get your bike stolen) instead of moving the bike or even putting the bike in the entryway or putting the bike in the laundry room the carpet cleaner took the bike out the front door and threw it off the stairs.

That is completely off topic.

 

[The Night Rider]

I would make no such assumption.

I'm sure you wouldn't.

Do you have a basis for that assertion?

I stated my basis for that assertion in the assertion

 

[Kleanbore]

I stated my basis for that assertion in the assertion

You made a statement, but there was no substantiation.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

All motorists should know what to do and why they must do it.

In reality, police need to be trained significantly better.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

Some people here are police officers or are retired from a career as a police officer, sheriff's deputy, federal officer. Others here can't figure this out, apparently. Or simply don't bother to read for comprehension.

Some people here are actually acquainted with, or friends of, police officers and their families. Others here can't figure this out, apparently.

Some people here actually have had positive experiences when dealing with police officers, either professionally or on the worst days of their lives.

Some people here do not apparently read each post in a thread nor understand context.

Some people here love to generalize, stereotype or judge people in certain occupations, based solely on what they "learn" from social media, or only on what stories they read or view on mainstream media.

I have a bad experience with a clerk in a 7-11 store who is rude and won't answer my question about how long ago the coffee was made. Do I get on Tik-Tok or THR to state that this is now the baseline of all 7-11 clerks - nationwide - and not the "outlier."? (Not usually)

Just as we get annoyed, frustrated, disappointed or angry when we detect how the typical law-abiding gun owner is the U.S. is viewed by those that believe differently than we do, then we turn around and judge the members of an entire occupational group by only our own limited experiences or what we may see in the media?

Sheesh.

Night Rider's statement that I quoted remains unchallenged by you, which speaks volumes.

 

[Jeff White]

In reality, police need to be trained significantly better.

I will believe you are serious about that when you post the letter you sent to your local taxing bodies demanding your taxes be raised significantly to pay for better training. No one who ever wore a badge will disagree with that. It's an easy thing to say. Especially if you don't understand how much training actually costs. It's not the cost of ammunition, simulators or other training aids, it's the cost of overtime that keeps training the way it is. Police departments are not manned like the military. They can't take a third of the department off the street for several weeks a year for a training cycle. When you take an officer off his normal duties to attend training you have to pay another officer overtime to fill in. That's the reality of the matter. I spent the last two years of my career in charge of corrections for the sheriffs office, I have real world experience with paying for adequate training. That's the reason that many departments don't do more than the minimum the state standards and training board requires. Many state standards and training boards have mobile training units that provide training for the small membership fee the agency pays, but the agency is still on the hook to pay the officer or deputy straight time to attend the training and another officer overtime to cover the shift of the officer who is away at training.

It all comes down to how much you, the tax payer are willing to fund.

 

[Kleanbore]

In reality, police need to be trained significantly better.

In the Utah case involving the non-complaint motorist who drew his gun and was killed, the officers did everything properly and in accordance with their training.

If you believe that to have been atypical, please cite relevant examples to support that belief.

 

[DeepSouth]

You know looking back I’ve had a good many encounters with law enforcement, I had a speeding, racing, and reckless driving issue for a few years in my late teens and early 20’s.

I only ever had one issue, and that wasn’t because of me, it was because of a passenger in my car going through a road block… it all ended fine but it was headed down hill until a more level headed officer diffused the situation.

Anyway, I guess my personal experience combined with watching countless videoed interactions (including this one) over the years has lead me to be full convinced that if you simply be respectful and don’t act like an idiot you want get shot.

I’m not saying everyone shot by LEO deserves it, but every time, without fail, there seems to be an “OH, that was stupid!” moment before the shooting starts.

There used to be a saying around here… Don’t start no $***, want be no $***!

 

[Old Dog]

Night Rider's statement that I quoted remains unchallenged by you, which speaks volumes.

My remarks may be considered as speaking to his comment as well.

There are those individuals in any occupation, and I'd submit even fewer of those types that gravitate to law enforcement careers.

Nonetheless, if those of you from outside need to tell us what type of people we're working with/worked with, feel free to apply. Otherwise, cease making your would-be pithy comments that attempt to portray an entire class of people as being possessed of certain mentalities, character traits and proclivities.

 

[Kleanbore]

Nonetheless, if those of you from outside need to tell us what type of people we're working with/worked with, feel free to apply. Otherwise, cease making your would-be pithy comments that attempt to portray an entire class of people as being possessed of certain mentalities, character traits and proclivities.

(Moderator hat on): Folks, please do that.

 

[Jeff White]

Here is a little background on the “victim” in this thread:


Mom of Utah law student killed by cops calls 911 from courtroom


https://mol.im/a/11873501

The real victims here are the officers who had to kill him in defense of their own lives.