When will Illinois be normal?
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ChestyP
Member
When enough voters
get off their butts and throw the bums out. Rod Blagojevich, known gun hater, campaigned downstate talking about how he had changed his views... Liar.
Then again, 70-80 million gun onwers in the U.S., total six million members of national gun rights advocacy organizations -- and that doesn't count multiple memberships. We get the government e deserve.
get off their butts and throw the bums out. Rod Blagojevich, known gun hater, campaigned downstate talking about how he had changed his views... Liar.
Then again, 70-80 million gun onwers in the U.S., total six million members of national gun rights advocacy organizations -- and that doesn't count multiple memberships. We get the government e deserve.
Ferrari308
member
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I think the problem is chicago, where people like Jessie Jackson can get out the vote in large numbers. If tomorrow Chicago was moved from Illinois to Indiana, I think you would find Illinois a conservative state with gun laws like Texas. But as long as chicago has a large vote, the rest of the state will be limited to what chicago wants.
As other states have cities that grow and get overpopulated, I think they will lose their rights too. Consider the largest cities in the USA and how those cities influence their states. Chicago in Illinois, New York in New York, Los Angeles in California. While those three cities are in vastly different parts of the USA, they all share in common a lot when it comes to politics.
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
I'm sorry to break this to you, but things will never be normal in Illinois. Why? One word: Chicago
redneck2
Member
I listen to Chicago radio every day. People from IL crack me up. They think they're SOOOO smart and ridicule Indiana folk. Then they vote in Daley by an 82% margin and the next week keep whining because the Democratic machine is so corrupt. Chimps.
Anyone who would vote for Dick Durbin is totally void of reality.
I live on a lake in Northern Indiana and the FIP's invade every week end. Trust me, I see 'em every day.
The problem with a democracy is that, when 6 out of 10 vote that the 4 left should do all the work and pay all the bills, what's the way it is. That's where you're at in Illinois (and every other super left wing area). You have a huge block of millions of welfare bums voting to get a living for doing nothing. They're never gonna change until the system is literally bankrupt and they've sucked it dry. We get closer every day.
Anyone who would vote for Dick Durbin is totally void of reality.
I live on a lake in Northern Indiana and the FIP's invade every week end. Trust me, I see 'em every day.
The problem with a democracy is that, when 6 out of 10 vote that the 4 left should do all the work and pay all the bills, what's the way it is. That's where you're at in Illinois (and every other super left wing area). You have a huge block of millions of welfare bums voting to get a living for doing nothing. They're never gonna change until the system is literally bankrupt and they've sucked it dry. We get closer every day.
Bruce333
Member
What can you do? I wish I could find people here (in NC) that ask that...The more people that voice their dissatisfaction with the gun laws the better for all of us...
http://www.illinoiscarry.com/
http://www.icarry.org/
http://www.illinoiscarry.com/
http://www.icarry.org/
and so it was
Never. Get outa' dodge.
I was actually talking about this to one of my buddies who's in WA now, he's deploying to Iraq next week and selling off some guns he got out there, much cheaper than we can find them. He was actually the guy that got me back into shooting in college, I hadn't in a while. In any case, I was musing that part of the problem in IL is the accessability of the shooting sports and community to the majority of the population, specifically the northern Illinois population centers. Part of that is legislative - Chicago runs us, and Chicago doesn't like its residents having guns, except for aldermen, mob-owned government employees, and Oprah's bodyguards. Daley is a sweaty, unprofessional slob, but he hangs around indefinitely, and his party policies do a lot to shaft us.
I feel like part of the availability issue, though, is the gun community's attitude toward pricing. Ranges can be expensive and don't seem as common to me as they are in a lot of our neighboring states. And every dealer wants to make a couple hundred bucks on every gun they sell. Price goes up, demand goes down, and ultimately there are less people in the shooting sports. Thus our constituency shrinks with every successive generation, and the people still into shooting are less passionate since they don't have the resources to really indulge. I understand as a dealer you have to make ends meet when you're not selling high volume, but volumes would go up if prices came down. Out of a dozen or so guns I've got, I've bought maybe one or two from dealers in IL. I think one. I buy a lot of my long guns at a place near family in Wisconsin. And mind you, it's in a town of 5000 in the middle of nowhere, so by comparing customer bases, you'd expect a store in a county neighboring Cook that's willing to wheel and deal like they do to clean up. And for the handguns, I usually just order online and transfer. Even with S&H and the transfer fee, our retail doesn't even come close. The place out in WI wants over $100 less for a handgun (dealer price is under $500 I believe) I'm in the market for now, now why would I pay that kind of difference?
The remainder of it's political, the Republican party is belly up in Illinois, Blagojevich is an absolutely terrible governor and there is not a soul in the state convinced otherwise, but I sadly don't have the highest hopes for Topinka either. Until there's a rally of conservativism, I'd expect things to continue to get worse until Chicago annexes the state at large and starts confiscating at will.
Never. Get outa' dodge.
I was actually talking about this to one of my buddies who's in WA now, he's deploying to Iraq next week and selling off some guns he got out there, much cheaper than we can find them. He was actually the guy that got me back into shooting in college, I hadn't in a while. In any case, I was musing that part of the problem in IL is the accessability of the shooting sports and community to the majority of the population, specifically the northern Illinois population centers. Part of that is legislative - Chicago runs us, and Chicago doesn't like its residents having guns, except for aldermen, mob-owned government employees, and Oprah's bodyguards. Daley is a sweaty, unprofessional slob, but he hangs around indefinitely, and his party policies do a lot to shaft us.
I feel like part of the availability issue, though, is the gun community's attitude toward pricing. Ranges can be expensive and don't seem as common to me as they are in a lot of our neighboring states. And every dealer wants to make a couple hundred bucks on every gun they sell. Price goes up, demand goes down, and ultimately there are less people in the shooting sports. Thus our constituency shrinks with every successive generation, and the people still into shooting are less passionate since they don't have the resources to really indulge. I understand as a dealer you have to make ends meet when you're not selling high volume, but volumes would go up if prices came down. Out of a dozen or so guns I've got, I've bought maybe one or two from dealers in IL. I think one. I buy a lot of my long guns at a place near family in Wisconsin. And mind you, it's in a town of 5000 in the middle of nowhere, so by comparing customer bases, you'd expect a store in a county neighboring Cook that's willing to wheel and deal like they do to clean up. And for the handguns, I usually just order online and transfer. Even with S&H and the transfer fee, our retail doesn't even come close. The place out in WI wants over $100 less for a handgun (dealer price is under $500 I believe) I'm in the market for now, now why would I pay that kind of difference?
The remainder of it's political, the Republican party is belly up in Illinois, Blagojevich is an absolutely terrible governor and there is not a soul in the state convinced otherwise, but I sadly don't have the highest hopes for Topinka either. Until there's a rally of conservativism, I'd expect things to continue to get worse until Chicago annexes the state at large and starts confiscating at will.
Stauble
Member
dont mean to run you down, but probably never.
Ferrari308 what about Texas? they have 3 huge cities and thier state hasnt totoaly gone to hell yet
Ferrari308 what about Texas? they have 3 huge cities and thier state hasnt totoaly gone to hell yet
El Tejon
Member
When the power of Chicago is destroyed.
El Tejon, inmate of Chicago, '92 to '95
El Tejon, inmate of Chicago, '92 to '95
eastwood44mag
Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
I say we offer the Canadians a peace offering: They can have the gun-control capitol of Chicago, in exchange for not griping about the American guns turning up in Canada.
CZ 75 BD
Member
redneck2
what are FIP's?
what are FIP's?
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
Good question. First, you have to understand what we face. Illinois has about 12.5 million people, three million of whom live in Chicago--unless you count the suburbs, and then it's more like eight million!
More importantly, traditionally we downstate gun-rights people have written off Chicago as a wasteland. That's the wrong attitude entirely. Chicago is the key to Illinois. Writing it off is like letting the enemy keep the best hill in the area because, hey, he already has the high ground, no sense in getting bloody trying to take it away from him. Victory will come only with Chicago.
Stuff to watch in Illinois:
www.GunsSaveLife.com
Formerly Champaign County Rifle Association. These people might be the strongest statewide group, though the ISRA is still better-connected in the halls of the capitol. Join them and see what they're up to. They're easily the most no-nonsense, innovative group out there.
www.icarry.org
Not a very active forum yet, but young Shaun Kranish is getting things going. If Shaun can focus on gun rights and not get too caught up in conspiracy theories, he's going to be a force. He's been working on getting at least a coordinator and an assistant coordinator in every single legislative district in Illinois. The idea is to have people who can "rally the troops" in every single district. Icarry is small and poor, but he's pushing hard. If he can bring organization to this fight, that will be a huge thing for us. We don't do organization in Illinois gun rights--we do infighting and cheerleader-style gossip feuds.
There ARE minds opening in Illinois every day, but we haven't reached a tipping point by a long shot. Too many people who consider themselves gun rights activists are still unwilling to share that fact with the public at large--and I don't mean on the internet. I mean face to face. Whenever I wear my Concealed Carry shirt, I get thumbs up and compliments without fail. In fact, I've never once worn that shirt in public without getting at least one positive comment from someone.
The best thing you can do is come out of the closet if you haven't already. Get some CCW shirts. Talk to people about concealed carry and about shooting in general. Take away the mystery and the fear. Be a living example of the kind of rational, reasonable, decent citizen who would want to carry a firearm for defense.
More importantly, traditionally we downstate gun-rights people have written off Chicago as a wasteland. That's the wrong attitude entirely. Chicago is the key to Illinois. Writing it off is like letting the enemy keep the best hill in the area because, hey, he already has the high ground, no sense in getting bloody trying to take it away from him. Victory will come only with Chicago.
Stuff to watch in Illinois:
www.GunsSaveLife.com
Formerly Champaign County Rifle Association. These people might be the strongest statewide group, though the ISRA is still better-connected in the halls of the capitol. Join them and see what they're up to. They're easily the most no-nonsense, innovative group out there.
www.icarry.org
Not a very active forum yet, but young Shaun Kranish is getting things going. If Shaun can focus on gun rights and not get too caught up in conspiracy theories, he's going to be a force. He's been working on getting at least a coordinator and an assistant coordinator in every single legislative district in Illinois. The idea is to have people who can "rally the troops" in every single district. Icarry is small and poor, but he's pushing hard. If he can bring organization to this fight, that will be a huge thing for us. We don't do organization in Illinois gun rights--we do infighting and cheerleader-style gossip feuds.
There ARE minds opening in Illinois every day, but we haven't reached a tipping point by a long shot. Too many people who consider themselves gun rights activists are still unwilling to share that fact with the public at large--and I don't mean on the internet. I mean face to face. Whenever I wear my Concealed Carry shirt, I get thumbs up and compliments without fail. In fact, I've never once worn that shirt in public without getting at least one positive comment from someone.
The best thing you can do is come out of the closet if you haven't already. Get some CCW shirts. Talk to people about concealed carry and about shooting in general. Take away the mystery and the fear. Be a living example of the kind of rational, reasonable, decent citizen who would want to carry a firearm for defense.
Sonofa... Lost a rather long post I was going to reply with. Doh.
In any case, I was just commenting on the above groups, having had the view as both a suburbanite from a family not involved in the shooting sports, and someone who spent the better part of five years down state. Basically, I'd say the disconnect a lot of the pro-shooting movements in Illinois have is the ability to establish rapport with the upstate sheep. They're viewed as right-wing rednecks. I like the CCRA / Guns Safe Life. But their highway signs are the object of much mockery from upstaters. I agree with them, but the only people that think much as a result of them are people that do. iCarry has a lot of respect in the gun community, and its founder is ballsier than I. But this isn't the 1960s civil rights movement. Getting arrested does not bolster public opinion in your favor. What we need is a moderate perception. The NRA will always be around to be reactive and fight for our gun rights. What they don't do (well) is foster relationships with people on the fence (in my opinion). Easy for me to say, though, right? I'm not changing the world. But I do make an effort in my own way. I try not to betray my political sentiments to anyone but those very close to me. That way, when I'm hanging out with one of my avant garde urban schmuck acquaintences, they're surprised to find out what an avid shooter I am if a gun-related issue comes up. They had pictured me as one of them, and from that position I feel a lot more empowered in terms of the attention they afford me when I'm trying to break them of their habit to inappropriately place emotions. They have simply swallowed the biases of the media and politicians without ever thinking them through, and have hangups about an inanimate object, no more threatening than many tools in their (okay, maybe their grandfather's) basement, and certainly not as dangerous as the car they drive. By focusing more on relationships than reactions, I can get in people's heads a little more, and hopefully get them out to a range - although, the FOID policies in Illinois more often than not screw that out of existence. Still, I have spent a good deal of money on ammo for people who don't own guns themselves, enjoying the opportunity to expose them to responsible gun ownership.
Does that have to be everyone's way? Nope. But I know I'm not alone with those thoughts, and I think if Chicago's perception of downstate could shift in that direction, we might actually make some progress. Got to try something new, in any case, because your average Illinoisian doesn't seem to understand crime statistics enough to think on their own yet.
In any case, I was just commenting on the above groups, having had the view as both a suburbanite from a family not involved in the shooting sports, and someone who spent the better part of five years down state. Basically, I'd say the disconnect a lot of the pro-shooting movements in Illinois have is the ability to establish rapport with the upstate sheep. They're viewed as right-wing rednecks. I like the CCRA / Guns Safe Life. But their highway signs are the object of much mockery from upstaters. I agree with them, but the only people that think much as a result of them are people that do. iCarry has a lot of respect in the gun community, and its founder is ballsier than I. But this isn't the 1960s civil rights movement. Getting arrested does not bolster public opinion in your favor. What we need is a moderate perception. The NRA will always be around to be reactive and fight for our gun rights. What they don't do (well) is foster relationships with people on the fence (in my opinion). Easy for me to say, though, right? I'm not changing the world. But I do make an effort in my own way. I try not to betray my political sentiments to anyone but those very close to me. That way, when I'm hanging out with one of my avant garde urban schmuck acquaintences, they're surprised to find out what an avid shooter I am if a gun-related issue comes up. They had pictured me as one of them, and from that position I feel a lot more empowered in terms of the attention they afford me when I'm trying to break them of their habit to inappropriately place emotions. They have simply swallowed the biases of the media and politicians without ever thinking them through, and have hangups about an inanimate object, no more threatening than many tools in their (okay, maybe their grandfather's) basement, and certainly not as dangerous as the car they drive. By focusing more on relationships than reactions, I can get in people's heads a little more, and hopefully get them out to a range - although, the FOID policies in Illinois more often than not screw that out of existence. Still, I have spent a good deal of money on ammo for people who don't own guns themselves, enjoying the opportunity to expose them to responsible gun ownership.
Does that have to be everyone's way? Nope. But I know I'm not alone with those thoughts, and I think if Chicago's perception of downstate could shift in that direction, we might actually make some progress. Got to try something new, in any case, because your average Illinoisian doesn't seem to understand crime statistics enough to think on their own yet.
anotherinkling
Member
Multiply yourself
Multiply yourself. That's what I've tried to do. I've taken several people shooting and gone so far as to print out FOID card forms, taken peoples' pictures and offered to cover the $5 fee. FOID card numbers are important. Though it's an outrage that we need them, if you can get others to at least get their FOID cards, the number of "Firearm Owners" will speak for itself. It's not everything, but it's a step...
Multiply yourself. That's what I've tried to do. I've taken several people shooting and gone so far as to print out FOID card forms, taken peoples' pictures and offered to cover the $5 fee. FOID card numbers are important. Though it's an outrage that we need them, if you can get others to at least get their FOID cards, the number of "Firearm Owners" will speak for itself. It's not everything, but it's a step...
dracphelan
Member
Believe me, the "leadership" of these cities are working on it. The mayor of Dallas attended a conference seeking to further gun control. The Houston Chief of Police has stated that he doesn't care how the legislature rewords the traveling statute (they changed it to be clearly defined), he will arrest anyone with a gun in their car and no CHL. And, I'm not sure which other large city you are referring to. What has saved Texas is the fact that liberal creep has reached the suburbs yet. But, give it 20 years and Texas will probably be a lot more like California.
sctman800
Member
Don Gwin said,
The best thing you can do is come out of the closet if you haven't already. Get some CCW shirts. Talk to people about concealed carry and about shooting in general. Take away the mystery and the fear. Be a living example of the kind of rational, reasonable, decent citizen who would want to carry a firearm for defense
Wonderful, Don. And I would also suggest to go and get some training and apply for non-resident CCW from any number of states that issue to us Illinois people. I personally have Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Florida and Utah; wife has Pennsylvania and Utah. Since I am ex-Army the only training I had to get was for Utah, Florida accepts DD214 from any branch as required training. I am not bashful about talking about my CCW as none are good here in Illinois so a lot of people know I carry when out of state. I talk about this in an effort to educate people about what is totaly acceptable in most of the rest of the country and not in an attempt to be "cool."
I wear NRA and S&W t-shirts almost as much as Harley shirts and have and wear one SUPPORT CONCEALED CARRY shirt. In fact the NRA shirts are a real good deal as far as price and quality. S&W shirts aren't cheap but like their firearms are top of the line.
Jim.
The best thing you can do is come out of the closet if you haven't already. Get some CCW shirts. Talk to people about concealed carry and about shooting in general. Take away the mystery and the fear. Be a living example of the kind of rational, reasonable, decent citizen who would want to carry a firearm for defense
Wonderful, Don. And I would also suggest to go and get some training and apply for non-resident CCW from any number of states that issue to us Illinois people. I personally have Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Florida and Utah; wife has Pennsylvania and Utah. Since I am ex-Army the only training I had to get was for Utah, Florida accepts DD214 from any branch as required training. I am not bashful about talking about my CCW as none are good here in Illinois so a lot of people know I carry when out of state. I talk about this in an effort to educate people about what is totaly acceptable in most of the rest of the country and not in an attempt to be "cool."
I wear NRA and S&W t-shirts almost as much as Harley shirts and have and wear one SUPPORT CONCEALED CARRY shirt. In fact the NRA shirts are a real good deal as far as price and quality. S&W shirts aren't cheap but like their firearms are top of the line.
Jim.
mljdeckard
Member
I don't know if it is completely hopeless, just because of the current nationwide momentum in the favor of CCW. Where 40 of 50 states have fome form of shall-issue or other, those that don't are looking conspicuously incorrect. As time goes by, with crime dropping in pretty much all the states EXCEPT the ones with facistic (is that a word?) legislation, the question of what they are doing wrong will become more and more pointed.
No one is in office forever.
No one is in office forever.
One of the biggest things we have to do is inform the public that we don't have CCW. The number of people who ask me how to get a permit never ceases to amaze me.
Most people who aren't in the gun culture get all of their information about guns, permits and shooting from Hollywood. They see enough fictional private investigators tell the police "It's ok, I've got a permit." on TV that they believe they can get a permit if they want one. I've had people look me in the eye and tell me with all the wide eyed belief of the newly converted that a judge can issue a permit along with a restraining order.
A large percent of the non-shooting population thinks that guns are registered nationwide. Why? Because for years every time the TV cops couldn't solve a shooting right away it was because they recovered an unregistered gun.
I've had people who were hunters and had posssessed a FOID card since they were children insist they could get a carry permit if they wanted one.
Another thing that we have to fight against is the mostly correct assumption that if you don't hang with bad people or go to bad places, you'll never need a gun to defend yourself.
The people who could benefit most from concealed carry legislation are those same people who would never bother getting a permit if they were available.
You're never going to see a groundswell of popular support for CCW. There hasn't been a groundswell of popular support for it in anyplace where it's passed. It's been passed by the dedicated effort of a small group of activists and the support of a small segment of the shooting population just about everywhere.
They way to get CCW is by getting in the trenches and playing that dirty political game.
Jeff
Most people who aren't in the gun culture get all of their information about guns, permits and shooting from Hollywood. They see enough fictional private investigators tell the police "It's ok, I've got a permit." on TV that they believe they can get a permit if they want one. I've had people look me in the eye and tell me with all the wide eyed belief of the newly converted that a judge can issue a permit along with a restraining order.
A large percent of the non-shooting population thinks that guns are registered nationwide. Why? Because for years every time the TV cops couldn't solve a shooting right away it was because they recovered an unregistered gun.
I've had people who were hunters and had posssessed a FOID card since they were children insist they could get a carry permit if they wanted one.
Another thing that we have to fight against is the mostly correct assumption that if you don't hang with bad people or go to bad places, you'll never need a gun to defend yourself.
The people who could benefit most from concealed carry legislation are those same people who would never bother getting a permit if they were available.
You're never going to see a groundswell of popular support for CCW. There hasn't been a groundswell of popular support for it in anyplace where it's passed. It's been passed by the dedicated effort of a small group of activists and the support of a small segment of the shooting population just about everywhere.
They way to get CCW is by getting in the trenches and playing that dirty political game.
Jeff
Deanimator
Member
It's never BEEN normal.
I'm from Apartheid Chicago and as long as it's sitting there on Lake Michigan like a huge cancerous mass, nothing like common, decent American values will EVER prevail. And I say this as a liberal ex-Democrat. Chicago values are not American values.
If you don't believe me, actually talk to people who LIVE in Chicago and LIKE it. The idea that people have RIGHTS, including the right to defend themselves is simply alien. It's like discussing women's rights with Mullah Omar. They don't even recognize the words you use, much less their meanings.
Chicago is Serbia and Daley is Milosevic. The ONLY thing that matters is POWER, obtained and maintained by ANY means necessary.
God I hope not.
I don't think Texas will ever be quite that bad for two reasons: One, the way our legislature meets. Our state government is so gimped and incompetent that they don't even get around to setting budgets for education without a special session, so pushing some sort of gun control measure through the works is going to be extra hard. Not saying it can't be done, just that those lobbyists would have to compete with every other lobbyist.
Two, we already have some pretty draconic weapons laws when you really think about it. Yes we're far better off than the socialist hell states like Kali and Mass, but considering all the arbitrary restrictions on personal weapons we already have, (like if you pass the shooting test for a CCW with a .454 chambered revolver, you're obviously incompetent to carry a Glock 19, and most fillet knives are strictly illegal according to the Penal Code), I think the public is by and large content with it the way it is.
Personally I'm not happy with it, but with the myriad restrictions already in place in the state such as you can't give a minor access to a gun and no open carry of any sort, we're already pretty saturated with it which will satisfy most people. To me that's the character of Texas for better or worse: except for a few whackos like those idiots you mentioned most people in this state are firmly non commital to any "radical" stance on anything for the most part.
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