Where is your breaking point?

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Life changing moment: Standing before the superior court judge, with a list of violations of state and federal law committed by the Commission, which would have voided the effect of their rulings....

In my father's (family) business we had a similar situation with copyright
infringement where we were the victims. Judge agreed the other side had
done wrong and awarded us: $1. Yes. One Dollar. This was despite the
other company making tens of thousands of dollars (wholesale) off the
infringed product. This was almost 20 years ago.

My court experiences didn't stop after that, but that is another story. LOL,
I don't want people reading my previous post thinking I'm some kid who got
p-ed off in the desert --I had to get an age waiver before that final round
of illumination began.

In fact, the Commission operated under "regional law", for which NO STATUTES APPLIED (they would have to write the law as they went along!).

So therefore since "no statutes applied" there should be no enforcement
applied either and you guys should have been able to ignore the zoning bullcr@p
they were foisting on you.....oh, wait, suddenly they find enforcement does apply ;)

See, that is how they play the game. Whether it's the Congress saying, gee,
"we didn't see that last little insertion in the Patriot Act" or your little local
officials pulling the same thing regarding the final paperwork as approved,
you NEVER see a scramble on their part to undo it! They could literally
pass another law to undo what they just did, but they don't.

They won't because that was what they intended to do all along. The hearings,
meetings, study groups, commissions, etc are all pretty much just busy work
and stage play. Sorry to be blunt, ppl, but's it's the old smoke and mirrors.

This is why I always become concerned when they start talking about guns...again.
 
I have found this thread interesting. But, I'm wondering how many people nation wide share the same feelings as the various posters to this thread. There have been about 50 responses here, does that mean there are 50,000-500,000 who share your sentiments?
 
The Last Couple Of Post...

... brings up a good point, such as that "Regional" thing with no law on the subject. Here's the deal: Government of any kind - local, "regional", or federal - may not do anything unless they are specifically given the power to do so by the people. Period. Go back and reclaim your property on those grounds. You've been robbed.

The same goes for you people whose guns were confiscated in New Orleans. You've been been robbed as well - at gunpoint!

Remember, folks: We, the law abiding citizens, have done nothing to warrant any of this. It is all the result of opportunism by unscrupulous officials. Hunting land "confiscated". Arms to hunt with, and defend yourself with, and to revolt with; confiscated. All this has but one logical end: Dependence upon the government and enslavement to it. And for what, a promise of peace?

Woody

You can live free holding the stock and possibly never have to pull the trigger, or you can try to live free at the muzzle. I prefer to hold the stock and live free. Those at the muzzle never seem to fare quite so well. B.E.Wood
 
jcb said:
I have found this thread interesting. But, I'm wondering how many people nation wide share the same feelings as the various posters to this thread. There have been about 50 responses here, does that mean there are 50,000-500,000 who share your sentiments?

Who knows! But we may soon see, won't we!

Woody
 
Seriously though folks, here in DC people gather and march and protest all the damn time... and then go home a day or two later and DC returns to "business as usual". Those of us who live here see it too often to do much other than smile and take pictures and hope that the "protest du jour" won't screw up our morning or evening commute too much.

Mass protests and marches on the Capitol are a "flash in the pan" event and they DO NOT WORK.

If you want to have an effect past being a news soundbite you should stick to long-term campaigning of your elected officials. It's not sexy, it's not loud and public, it requires a long term committment, but it is what really works.


I don't disagree with you on this assessment, but I think it is short sighted.

Frankly, a march on DC isn't for the benefit of the residents of DC. It is a statement of going to Capital Hill.


Without a doubt, the initial march would have marginal impact on a practical level. However, there are foundational benefits:


1. The initial news "pop" of publicity.

2. Never before has gun owners made such a direct statement. Precident events would tend to have more impact on the Hill.

3. A march would become a focal point event that could and would be referenced by both supporters and detractors for years in the future.

4. Frankly, I believe it would shock Congress that we could mount such an effort that takes real effort for a single event.

A march is only a SMALL part of an overall long-term campaign. In any PR campaign, there are numerous smaller tactics used. Some take more effort than others to pull off. Taken individually, there may be very little evidence of results. That is where SO MANY people can't see the forest for the trees. You do not take a single event and judge its effectiveness alone, nor to you find the absolute best tactic and use it alone. Doing that greatly diminishes its potential effectiveness. EVERY tactical action is part of an overall STRATEGIC campaign. The not-so-apparent results of one action support and compound the results of other actions. In our efforts to be as effecient as possible, we make the mistake of tossing out things that could make a tremendous difference when used in an overall campaign. Remember, we SHOULD already be writing our congressmen, representatives, and voting. The long-term commitments are already in place for many of us.


Because something has been discussed before is no reason not to consider it again. Times are different, attitudes are different, and support is different now.

Because I meantioned the march thing, I've already gotten quite a few PMs expressing support for one. Stay tuned-- I am exploring some options as time premits it.


All the best!

John
 
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I see these and hear these discussions every once on a while and think, do you think that if the demos actually somehow passed legislation to take away everyones guns, that they could get away with it? I don;t and heres why. I was in the Army for 10 years, and when in there were countless trys on the demos part to take away our 2nd rights, we talked about it a lot amongst ourselves and thought that not only did almost 90% of us have and own guns, but would NOT if activated to do so in a martial law ituation confiscate anyones guns. Not only that, but polls in law enforcement agency's nationwide have said the same thing. LEOs do not want to get killed trying to take away law abiding citizens firearms, and I can tell you this, in my learned opinion, I'd have to say that if they made a law making owning a firearm a felony if you didn;t surrender it then the nation would have as many felons as it does gun owners. Who is going to try to take my gun.....no body. Plus, most if not all demos I know own guns, only the far leftist who are total hippy tree hugging fanitacs think it would be kosher to take away guns. I don;t see it working.
 
Also, this poll of police officers doesn't inspire me with overwhelming confidence:

How about this one? :D

46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. A thirty (30) day amnesty period is permitted for these firearms to be turned over to the local authorities. At the end of this period, a number of citizen groups refuse to turn over their firearms.
The statement that the U.S. Marines were asked to respond to:

I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.


( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
No opinion Strongly disagree Disagree Agree Strongly agree

The Responses

Of the 300 U.S. Marines asked this question, 264, or 88% of them responded.

The outcome of the survey was as follows:


Strongly disagree 127 42.33%

Disagree 58 19.33%

Agree 56 18.67%

Strongly agree 23 07.67%

No opinion 36 12.00%

Total: 300 100.00%

Summary of the responses to question 46.

The survey results indicated that 61.66% (42.33 + 19.33) said they would refuse to fire on U.S. citizens, whereas 26.34% (18.67 + 7.67) indicated they would fire.

Apparently, not everyone will reach a "breaking point" together.....
 
That one disturbs me as well.

1 in 4 troops, according to that will kill US citizens if the governent ordered it.
 
1 in 4 troops, according to that will kill US citizens if the governent ordered it.

Yeah, that sort of thing staggers me since the Constitution is about that whole Government of, by, and for, the people.

I guess they either forgot or didn't understand that oath they took

you know, the one that goes something like this...

Oath of Enlistment, US ARMY(from the Center for Military History);

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).


For Commissioned Officers;

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
 
I'm certainly near a breaking point, but I'm not in a position to do much unless government officials specifically oppress me or my family. As of a week ago, I'm engaged to be married. There's too much happening in my life right now, too much to lose, for me to engage in high-risk activity without specific provocation.

But I still support the idea of organized protest and civil disobedience.

Also, a suggestion... if gun owners decide to march on DC (which is a great idea!), I'd suggest the march be in support of the entire Bill of Rights. It's not just the 2nd that is being trampled these days.
 
There's too much happening in my life right now, too much to lose, for me to engage in high-risk activity without specific provocation.

I want to be clear that what I was talking about earlier was clearly self/family
defense in nature --such as stopping or reacting to a felonious act commited
against them by someone under the guise or protection of so-called gov authority.
 
I have to agree to some extent with Glockfan on his list back in post 21. However, I don't think there was as much luck as he thought.

There was a lot of local and state support for the revolution. Local and state govs kept things going fairly steady while the fighting was going on. Any modern revolution/successsion would need the support of these govs. The sheriff would keep general lawlessness down, and would probably also provide some intelligence. The states would do similar, while also forming a coalition or something, which would present a solid face to the world. Ideally this would start long before shots are fired. Regaining what little cohesion was lost during the conflict would not take long.

The economy would be ruined, and we would be looking at foreign troops, which many would look at as saviors, but probably many would see as invaders(much like many Iraqis see us), and would be treated in a hostile manner. Considering the abuses u.n. troops have perpetrated in the past, it wouldn't take long before a fair number of the people who welcomed them/didn't care turned against them.

Such a thing will really be considered the same as jumping off the deep end, and we need to look at what we have, and decide if it's worth it. I know where my diving board is, and I'm working to make sure I have the things needed to make it bearable. Most of the "economy" is excessive consumerism, that we'll actually be better off without. The sheep will have to look the wolves in the eyes, seeing them for what they are. They will have to look at the shearing that's gone down farther than they thought, the pain dulled by bread and circuses. When they get over that, they'll see that they have to get thier hands dirty.

Provided we can survive the foriegn assaults, and keep the gangs from tearing the sheep apart, we can survive. We have to give something up in the short term. I agree that we need to work on getting people like Ron Paul into the gov to set things right. But to fix it, we'll have to let go of the lesser of two evils, and that means we might have some trouble in the meantime. Chances are, they might not let us purge the gov with the ballot box, which means that we'll have to use the ammo box(I doubt the jury box will be much good by then).

I suspect that the if the next person in the WH doesn't at least toe the line by leaving our rights where they are, they'll get a literally "in their face" demonstration of how the 2A can change the balance of power. And that my friends, will be the second shot heard around the world. And we will either support that shot as a response, or we'll respond to the response to that shot. Either way, we're on the edge, and just a light tap will put us rolling downhill.
 
I want to be clear that what I was talking about earlier was clearly self/family
defense in nature --such as stopping or reacting to a felonious act commited
against them by someone under the guise or protection of so-called gov authority.

Well in that case... I bought my firearms to defend against any felonious violence committed against myself or my family; I don't care who is committing the offense.

And illegal, unjust oppressive acts by our various secret police agencies could fall into that category.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032201882.html

My National Security Letter Gag Order
Friday, March 23, 2007; Page A17

It is the policy of The Washington Post not to publish anonymous pieces. In this case, an exception has been made because the author -- who would have preferred to be named -- is legally prohibited from disclosing his or her identity in connection with receipt of a national security letter. The Post confirmed the legitimacy of this submission by verifying it with the author's attorney and by reviewing publicly available court documents.

The Justice Department's inspector general revealed on March 9 that the FBI has been systematically abusing one of the most controversial provisions of the USA Patriot Act: the expanded power to issue "national security letters." It no doubt surprised most Americans to learn that between 2003 and 2005 the FBI issued more than 140,000 specific demands under this provision -- demands issued without a showing of probable cause or prior judicial approval -- to obtain potentially sensitive information about U.S. citizens and residents. It did not, however, come as any surprise to me.

Three years ago, I received a national security letter (NSL) in my capacity as the president of a small Internet access and consulting business. The letter ordered me to provide sensitive information about one of my clients. There was no indication that a judge had reviewed or approved the letter, and it turned out that none had. The letter came with a gag provision that prohibited me from telling anyone, including my client, that the FBI was seeking this information. Based on the context of the demand -- a context that the FBI still won't let me discuss publicly -- I suspected that the FBI was abusing its power and that the letter sought information to which the FBI was not entitled.

Rather than turn over the information, I contacted lawyers at the American Civil Liberties Union, and in April 2004 I filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the NSL power. I never released the information the FBI sought, and last November the FBI decided that it no longer needs the information anyway. But the FBI still hasn't abandoned the gag order that prevents me from disclosing my experience and concerns with the law or the national security letter that was served on my company. In fact, the government will return to court in the next few weeks to defend the gag orders that are imposed on recipients of these letters.

Living under the gag order has been stressful and surreal. Under the threat of criminal prosecution, I must hide all aspects of my involvement in the case -- including the mere fact that I received an NSL -- from my colleagues, my family and my friends. When I meet with my attorneys I cannot tell my girlfriend where I am going or where I have been. I hide any papers related to the case in a place where she will not look. When clients and friends ask me whether I am the one challenging the constitutionality of the NSL statute, I have no choice but to look them in the eye and lie.

I resent being conscripted as a secret informer for the government and being made to mislead those who are close to me, especially because I have doubts about the legitimacy of the underlying investigation.

The inspector general's report makes clear that NSL gag orders have had even more pernicious effects. Without the gag orders issued on recipients of the letters, it is doubtful that the FBI would have been able to abuse the NSL power the way that it did. Some recipients would have spoken out about perceived abuses, and the FBI's actions would have been subject to some degree of public scrutiny. To be sure, not all recipients would have spoken out; the inspector general's report suggests that large telecom companies have been all too willing to share sensitive data with the agency -- in at least one case, a telecom company gave the FBI even more information than it asked for. But some recipients would have called attention to abuses, and some abuse would have been deterred.

I found it particularly difficult to be silent about my concerns while Congress was debating the reauthorization of the Patriot Act in 2005 and early 2006. If I hadn't been under a gag order, I would have contacted members of Congress to discuss my experiences and to advocate changes in the law. The inspector general's report confirms that Congress lacked a complete picture of the problem during a critical time: Even though the NSL statute requires the director of the FBI to fully inform members of the House and Senate about all requests issued under the statute, the FBI significantly underrepresented the number of NSL requests in 2003, 2004 and 2005, according to the report.

I recognize that there may sometimes be a need for secrecy in certain national security investigations. But I've now been under a broad gag order for three years, and other NSL recipients have been silenced for even longer. At some point -- a point we passed long ago -- the secrecy itself becomes a threat to our democracy. In the wake of the recent revelations, I believe more strongly than ever that the secrecy surrounding the government's use of the national security letters power is unwarranted and dangerous. I hope that Congress will at last recognize the same thing.
 
I've worked on many political campaigns before, and will continue to do so. I'd much rather change things via the ballot box than the cartridge box.

But even that process is fatiguing. First, it's very hard to find a principled person willing to run for public office. It's even harder for a principled person to win, because he'll face an opponent who will make promises to thousands of people with outstretched hands.

Plus, it takes money. 95% of the time, the candidate with the most money wins. (2004 study).

Of course, there are many people who would give money to a principled candidate. But our elected officials have placed arbitrary amounts on how much money individiduals can contribute.

The unprincipled candidate doesn't face that problem, anymore than criminals face the problem of getting guns. Our governor here in Wisconsin was able to raise 25% more than his challenger, and from some very questionable sources. He's a former prosecutor and state attorney general, though. He knows how to skate near the thin ice but not break through.

If elected, the principled candidate faces the machine. Play nice, or the machine will eat you. The most principled member of the WI state legislature was defeated last year because he dared to challenge the road builders, who give vast amounts of money to members of both parties. Even the state Republican party's support for his re-election bid was a chimera.

The system has become corrupted because the public has been corrupted. They'll vote vote for a candidate who wants to ban guns because the candidate promises them more. More of what? Everything. I know very few people who haven't received money from the public coffers at one time or another.

So, what's the solution? Marches? Letters to the editor?

Here's a suggestion: pick one legislator and make an example of him. Let's say it's Chuck Schumer, one of the most senior members of congress. Dedicate all resources from every caring gun owner nationwide to his defeat.

Lather, rinse, and repeat.
 
I've reached mine

The Kelo thing clinched it for me, the end of property rights. No property rights and you have no rights at all.
It is merely a question of what to do about it.
And yes the outcome is going to be very bad indeed but living as slaves for political masters is no life worth having.
 
Monkeyleg said:
Here's a suggestion: pick one legislator and make an example of him. Let's say it's Chuck Schumer, one of the most senior members of congress. Dedicate all resources from every caring gun owner nationwide to his defeat.

Lather, rinse, and repeat.

Actually, I think that's a great idea. Let's make a list, and start picking them off one by one.

Only one change, let's make Carl Levin our first target. :evil:
 
There is a precedent for what is happening now in US history.
Just look back to the early 1900's when the controled substances act and national prohibition were passed, both in 1919.

Folks were no longer able to decide what substances they could put in their own bodies. Drug posession and drug addiction, and of course selling drugs had become illegal and states would develop their own patchwork of draconian laws to punnish sellers and users.

What happened to life liberty and the pusuit of Happiness?,, being secure in your Person, and possessions?? Wasn't prohibition an infringement on basic constitutional NO Human rights by our government??

Physicians were later frobidden to proscribe narcotics to treat addicted users. The black market grew, prisons swelled, to unheard of levels. All this was in response to an out cry in the press about the horrors of addiction and deterioration of our society to crime and pointless violence. Prejudice against minorities like blacks, and mexicans was taken advantage of to spread fear, fear of the Blackman going wild on cocaine and raping white women, among other ridiculous fear mongering claims.

Public outrage grew and new laws were passed. Alcohol was subject to this frenzy as well. 1919 to 1934 IIRC the black market grew and violent criminal gangs with it. Police became more militarized to combat the violent new criminals. New police organizations, like the FBI, ATF, DEA were created, and lots of new prisons built.

Now replace drugs and alcohol, with GUNS as the evil and tell me if this doesn't sound familiar, and unfortunately alot like what will may happen to gunowners in the future.??
 
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Issues such as this brought me to this board. I too am concerned about the .gov/.mil not fully supporting the Constitution. The more I research the more worries I have.

I have become a single issue voter. Does the candidate support and defend the Constitution of the United States yes or no? That is the only determining factor.

- Anyone who votes against the 2A

- For the Patriot Act

- Or votes for and supports any other Craziness that is unconstitutional does not get my vote or support.
 
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