Where is your breaking point?

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You guys have lost the thread. Your looking for a leader? Who is going to be first? Who is staying home?

There can only be one answer. Live Free, or Die!

All the politicking in the world will change nothing. All the Rosie Parades on D.C., will change nothing. As long a the republicrat game is allowed to run, all remains the same. The time for action is well past.

Our only hope is a third party, or organized general strikes. You know stay home from work. Yikes, that'll cost us money!!! If it gets to where we got to go gunning, it is all lost and we get to prove how much we respect the principle of the alternative to "Live Free,,,,,,,".

While we wring our hands and ask, who is going first, the house burns down around us.

I know when my trigger is tripped. When it happens, I ain't asking who is with me, or who will go first. You young ones starting a family had better start looking towards the future. One day you will be like me, knowing your grandkids will never know the freedoms that once were! Time is coming........

Jerry
 
You know you guys got me thinking back about the Zumbogate. I honestly feel bad for him. I saw his show a couple of times, and I think he was just your typical ignorrant hunter. He has never had the need for an AK or AR clone, and the only time he sees them is on TV in Iraq (mind you those are REAL AKs, not the pretend semi-auto ones), so he says 'why do they need them'. Then he got schooled, and I do believe he feels bad for it, perhaps he was reminded that an attack on any gun is an attack on all. Now I dont agree with him at all, BUT I was in a similar boat until recently. I only cared about C&R. The guns I have had in the past that were modern non C&R I always sold or traded for C&R stuff. As long as they werent attacking my right to buy a SVT40 or Carcano, the AWB didnt bother me. But that all changed when I was awoken by HR1022, which is an attack on the m1s.

And that is where we are now. Most guys dont have a 'breaking point' until its their rights that are being stomped on. Sometimes it takes this to wake a gun owner up. Some gun owners probably just have a .38 hidden with their porn and booze locker, so until they try some UK-like ban they wont care. It's a difficult thing trying to remind gun owners that once they ban one thing, in 10 years they will try another. Werent autos enough? Guess not. Less than 10 years later they went for the fake assault weapons. Ive grown to expect it every 10 years.
 
To Me, It's More Than "Live Free Or Die" ...

... for it comes down to the point of making it possible to enslave me by stripping me of the tools I need to remain free. Take those tools and I'm as good as enslaved. When the man comes with the chains, it's too late. I don't think it is possible to take those chains and wrap them around his neck if he is armed and I am not. Therefore, the line is drawn - has been drawn - by our Founding Fathers when they crafted and ratified the second article added to the Constitution, commonly known as the Second Amendment to the Constitution for the United States of America. They saw this coming, having seen it in the past. Hell, some of them were slavers, too! Not only is the Second Amendment from the horse's mouth, it's from the guys holding the reins as well!

Each and every infringement on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a link in that chain. Each and every law in the way of us maintaining our readiness as a well regulated militia is a link as well. Registration is the Blacksmith stoking his coals forging your collar, and confiscation is analogous to the Blacksmith's collar wrapped around your neck and you're ready for the chain.

I've been too tolerant up to this point. I will not register my arms nor will I stand for their confiscation. There is my line. Take it or leave it, Congress.

Woody

"I pledge allegiance to the rights that made and keep me free. I will preserve and defend those rights for all who live in this Union, founded on the belief and principles that those rights are inalienable and essential to the pursuit and preservation of life, liberty, and happiness." B.E.Wood
 
... for it comes down to the point of making it possible to enslave me by stripping me of the tools I need to remain free. Take those tools and I'm as good as enslaved. When the man comes with the chains, it's too late.

As I pointed out before in this thread, the preferred method of enslaving you
is by binding and controlling your economic life --your money. Well...it's not
really your money anyway, it's the collective tool of an economy. ;) The
main way to control your use of that money is by taxation.

Here is a very quick illustration of how taxation has changed in this country
over time (this will NOT be about the "legality" of an income tax which has
been beaten to death on THR in the past --this is simply about tax rates
and amount of income). In any case use the information from these official
websites to see how taxation has changed from then to now:

http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=149200,00.html

In 1913, Wyoming ratified the 16th Amendment, providing the three-quarter majority of states necessary to amend the Constitution. The 16th Amendment gave Congress the authority to enact an income tax. That same year, the first Form 1040 appeared after Congress levied a 1 percent tax on net personal incomes above $3,000 with a 6 percent surtax on incomes of more than $500,000.

Remember $3,000 and the year 1913 when you go to this website:

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/Research/data/us/calc/index.cfm

Ok, now what do you get for the year 2007? How much income today would
you have to make before that 1 percent tax would be levied on you?

I know a lot of people who would not qualify for that 1% federal tax as
adjusted. I wouldn't. Double that amount for couples filing jointly and many
people still wouldn't qualify.

Each and every infringement on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a link in that chain.

Each and every coin taken from my pocket and yours becomes a link in our chain.

Feel those chains now? :scrutiny: :fire:
 
Each and every coin taken from my pocket and yours becomes a link in our chain.

And, the even more insidious tax has yet to be mentioned. 70+ years ago, one greenback dollar bill would buy twenty percent of an ounce of gold. All of this inflation is not accidental.

Imagine, your house and mine is only actually worth 3 cents on the dollar. Of course the inflated price of your/my home will plummet, when the money men decide it is in their best interests. Just having it paid off is no protection.

Latest gold price is 664.50. Today it take 33.22 dollars to buy 1/20 of an ounce of gold.

As I said before, if it goes to the gun, we are beaten already, in practical wording. It must be something real in the political world. A new party on the way to power in D.C., or general strikes. Something along these lines.

Jerry
 
As I said before, if it goes to the gun, we are beaten already, in practical wording.

Iraqi insurgents fighting for their way of life don't agree. These people ARE willing to take up arms for their way of life. And in guerilla warfare, guerillas always win no matter the odds simply because they refuse to give up.

Disagree? then think of these things.

Iraq and the US - we are losing
Afghanistan and Russia - Russia lost
Vietnam and the US - US lost
Colonists and Britain - We, the colonists, won. We were the guerillas.

In every case, the guerilla faces a much more well equipped and trained army, and they defeated it. Let's not overlook this one key point that we complacent keyboard warriors always seem to ignore.

Going the the gun insures we will win, taking them up, collectively, is another matter. For rallying the troops would be the most difficult thing to do. I'm sure our founding fathers had the same problem, but they did it, and we all love them dearly for it. We also agree that they would currently be rolling in their graves to see what our political system has become. But hey, wasn't it Jefferson or Franklin that only gave it 80 years before it would collapse? There are examples all over the world, past and present, of people reaching for guns for a way of life more to their liking.

Point is, when will we reach for ours, together, like our founding fathers did against the Britons?

It'll happen in pubs, as it did with our founders, where both libs and cons will both agree, enough is enough, time to do something. I think it will happen, maybe not my generation, but this next one, they have more fire and fervor than any I've seen before. But again, that may just be my age coming into play as I approach 40. Regardless, it will happen, but the thing is, will it happen and impact enough people to create a movement or will it be a Ruby Ridge or Waco Texas where people trying to choose their own way of life are told by the masses that their not to keen of that. Weak analogy, but you get the point.

Many will die, no doubt, but at least they will know what it is they are fighting for. The political process is no longer conducive to results dictated by the people, our elected officials have seen to that under the flood of corporate money's influence. They only need our support to get elected, after that, their in the club, they don't need us anymore, the 'ol boys club will take care of them, and it does. And in all honesty, isn't that what we're all really pissed off about anyway. Hey, I voted for you and you turned around and lied to me, ignored my pleas to get things on track again and simply became a part of the problem you promised to help solve.

I've written lots of letters to my Senators regarding issues in my state of Oregon. The only time one of them even acknowledged that I sent them a letter is when Senator Ron Wyden sent me a note claiming he was not supporting giving illegal immigrants rights to our social services. Other than that, nothing. Now, if I was a big executive, for say, Intel, who wielded tons of money and a multibillion dollar corporation, do you think my pleas would be ignored. I don't.

Sorry if this drifted badly, I did not read every single post.
 
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Iraqi insurgents fighting for their way of life don't agree. These people ARE willing to take up arms for their way of life. And in guerilla warfare, guerillas always win no matter the odds simply because they refuse to give up.

No, they do not always win. They win, if they can keep from getting killed off, before a people tire of that particular conflict. We did not lose the Vietnam conflict, we gave it up after winning every major fight. It was PR that drove us out..

We won independence from King George, with a a lot of help from France and some distractions caused by Spain. Without these King George would have never quit the Colonies. We won out against The Major World Power of that day, because it was too entangled elsewhere.

How many Americans will you find to strap on bombs and blow themselves up. There is a cultural difference here. How many will not step up to fight "terrorists" who have harmed own, no matter those "terrorists" are their Countrymen. No, the romantic notions have a good feel, but when we go to the gun, the Nation will never be the same and likely not to our liking. Better to work the ballot box and the money system.

Get used to the idea that the Game is rigged. The old ways will not work again.

Jerry
 
My own personal choice was to move from an anti-gun state (Kali) to a pro-RKBA state, Florida. I think over time folks will "vote with their feet" and move to states that suit them. Statists and welfare hounds will move to states like Illinois, and freedom lovers will move out. As long as some states are more or less bastions of freedom, we'll put off the final confrontation.


Now, if national legislation were passed banning entire classes of weaponry, things might heat up. That was the premise of my first novel, when Congress banned all semi-auto rifles after a contrived stadium massacre.
 
Since I'm not from around these parts, I'm probably not very qualified to comment, but I've always known the Constitution to be "the supreme law of the land" (quote from the INS/USCIS). Therefore, no infringement of the Bill of Rights or any other part of the constitution should even be considered under any circumstances. I don't think you can pick and choose which amendments we're going to stick to today. No politician should be allowed to remain in power if he/she attempts to.
 
jeepmor, your post reminded me of something that happened last week. I got a call from some yo-yo on the Gordon Smith campaign team asking me for money - $75 as a starting point. After he endured me calling his employer a RINO and pointing out that Smith spent more time in conference with the Dems than his own party and that he really needed to hold town-hall meetings in local schools rather than fund-raisers at the Hilton with Phil Knight, et al, he asked me if I wanted to lose the only Republican Senator on the west coast.
I had to pause then, because I couldn't believe he hadn't heard all the stuff I had just told him but when I caught my breath I really told him what I thought about his employer. He seemed to be impressed if not amused. :banghead:
I really don't know what it will take to get this country back on track but doing the same stuff over and over certainly doesn't seem like it'll do much good. Maybe we need someone like Hillary in office to jar the sheeple out of their comas. From now on, when I vote (IF I vote) I'm just going to vote for the most libertairian candidate available or against the incumbent.
 
Yeah, I know: every day there's a post on THR, TFL, AR15.com or another forum about SHTF scenarios. No doubt such fantasies have existed since the first formation of the Wog versus Gog neanderthal political dynasties.

But something is growing, and not for the better. The political landscape is more divided, whether national, statewide, or even local.

Believe it or not, young members of THR, but there was a time when politicians of both parties actually respected the Second Amendment. JFK, Hubert Humphrey and other Democrats didn't use the terms "hunters and sportsmen." They said flat-out that the Second Amendment means what it says.

I believe that, don't ask me why because I wasn't there, deep down I want to believe it. My courage depends on believing it, if not within the past sixty years then the past 250, sometime somewhere someone believed that freedom was worth dying for. Someone, somewhere, sometime, believed that freedom was worth killing for.

How did the General put it? "I will have peace, even if I have to go to war to get it" it would read for them so long ago "I will have freedom, even if I have to start a war for it" or, even better, "Give me liberty or give me death". It would read for us soon too, indeed the impossible storm is coming, make no mistake whether it is fought in the court room, the congress floor, or the streets of America, it is coming.

That era was long ago and far away.

In its place, we have a system where the Republicans take for granted the votes of the gun owners, the fundamentalist Christians, and other groups that can find no haven in the Democrat party.

And the Democrat party takes for granted that Blacks, Hispanics, gays, and other interest groups will simply pull the voting lever for the "D" ticket

I was on the phone today with gun shop owners from all over the country. One, in Illinois, told me that she couldn't commit to any sort of advertising until she saw the outcome of the proposed AW ban/registration scheme proposed by Daley and Governor Blago.

If the bill passed, she said, she and her husband would sell their gun store for whatever they could get for it, and move to another state.

How in the name of God did things ever get this far?.

Please... Don't be fooled into thinking that this is the first time it has happened. The Egyptians forbade their slaves to have weapons, the Babylonians as well, the Romans, the Franks, the English, the Japanese... the list goes on and on. It all follows a trend, those in power want what those with money want, namely... more of it.

Then someone stood up, a small band of people, and said 'enough'. That simple attitude, that simple sentiment marked the turning point of history yet again, then began what would live to be called here in America "The Revolutionary War".

It didn't stop there, the Indians had to fight for their freedom, the blacks had to shoot raiders from the Klan, women had to take to the streets enmasse for their freedom, blacks had to hold demonstrations and suffer viscous attacks from the police for equal freedom. I could keep going on and on, freedom is what America is all about, and there will always be those who wish to gain power over others.

This is why it is said "every generation needs their heroes", because without heroes to remind us of the good in ourselves and the power within us to change our environment we become little more than sheep, herded around by other sheep who think they are wolves.

We aren’t sheep, and we aren’t wolves, we are Humans. When my cat wants something that I have and I will not give it to him, he does what an animal is supposed to do, “the strongest survive” so they say and he attempts to take it from me. If I were to follow the law of nature then I would respond with a slightly greater show of force to let him know that I am superior, but I’m not an animal, I have authority over my decisions and myself.

In the same way those who would wish to disarm Americans are doing so because they see something that they want, power, they are in my opinion sub-human because they do not base their decisions on decided thought but rather on their carnal fears and desires.

Thus it has been and thus it shall continue, every generation has to fight its own wars against the power hungry, my grandfather went to world war two and we saw what happened when monsters were allowed to rule and that strengthened their resolve, but we don’t have a world war two, and we don’t have a man in tights to stand up and fight for ‘Truth, Justice, and the American way’. We haven’t had to taste our own blood for our freedom, and that is why things are the way they are, we sit and argue fruitlessly while believing that we have to conform to any and all laws that get passed.

More to the point, what will people do?

Have we forgotten the words of our forefathers? Have we forgotten that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance? Have we forgotten what John Quincy Adams told us when he said “Posterity--you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it.” And Woodrow Wilson, “Liberty has never come from the government; it has always come from the subjects of it. The history of liberty is a history of limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it.”

My soul, has it slipped the minds of everyone that "To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions is a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy." (Thomas Jefferson) or that northern jurors in the 1850's refused to convict Quakers and others of aiding and abetting runaway slaves, though in direct opposition to the Runaway Slave Act.

First Chief Justice John Jay said “The jury has a right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy.” Or Lysander Spooner (An Essay on the Trial by Jury, 1852): "Our American constitution have provided five...separate tribunals, to wit, representatives, senate, executive, jury, and judges; and have made it necessary that each enactment shall pass the ordeal of all these separate tribunals, before its authority can be established by the punishment of those who choose to transgress it."

I hear you, “where is he going with this?” simply here, listen closely IF THE LAW IS WRONG, THEN THE H*** WITH IT! If a ‘law’ says something that is contrary to freedom or righteousness, then the people are above that law. The people are not subject to laws, laws are subject to people, and people to people.

So, back to your question ‘what will people do?’ that is simple, we will stop meekly submitting to the sub-humans who want to take away our rights and assert our power as Humans to set them in their place. We will wave off their ‘laws’ and tote our freedoms valiantly for all to see. What we are doing right now we are doing quietly, ‘under the radar’ so to speak, however we will be prepared to let rivers of blood flow to refresh the tree of liberty if it must be.

I'm not a hero. I'm a coward. But I'm reaching the point where I feel that the potential sacrifice of my own life, if I thought such a sacrifice would achieve the means to a truly free society, would be justified.

And that idea just scares the hell out of me.

Congratulations, , you have taken the first step to heroism. I am confident that when the time comes, you will have already admitted and past that first hurdle and will be miles ahead of the horde, leading your pack.

What can you do now? If you are really serious about your rights and the constitution then consider forming a C.R.E.S.T. chapter in your area. I am, and when the time comes (and I said when, not if) and you have to stand up for your freedoms, then we will be standing together.

Semper Fi, Carry On.
- Ghost


We must realize that today's Establishment is the new George III. Whether it will continue to adhere to his tactics, we do not know. If it does, the redress, honored in tradition, is also revolution.
— Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, Points of Rebellion, New York: Random House, 1970
 
I'm Gonna Have To Look Into CREST

Anyone who can put the proper title to our Constitution has a good start! It is, "The Constitution FOR the United States of America", not "OF".

Woody
 
Money, growth and....politics, of course

I love these microcosm things that reflect the larger nation:

Indiana Mayors Call for State Lawmakers to Protect Taxpayers

Municipal Leaders Push for New Revenue Options in Statewide News Conferences

Mayors held simultaneous news conferences across Indiana on Wednesday, March 28, 2007, in Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, Hammond and South Bend to discuss the urgency of property tax relief and the need for new revenue options during this legislative session. The bipartisan coalition of mayors detailed how property tax reform and adequate funding for local governments is crucial to the quality of life in cities and towns across Indiana. The Indiana Association of Cities and Towns (IACT) is aggressively working to reduce reliance on property taxes and find alternatives for financing critical services citizens need and deserve.

The following IACT members participated in the news conferences:

Indianapolis: Mayor Bart Peterson (D), Greenwood Mayor Charles Henderson (R) and Madison Mayor Al Huntington (R).

Fort Wayne: Mayor Graham Richard (D), Bluffton Mayor Ted Ellis (D) and Warsaw Mayor Ernie Wiggins (R).

Hammond: Mayor Tom McDermott (D), LaPorte Mayor Leigh Morris (R) and Highland Clerk-Treasurer Michael Griffin (D).

South Bend: Mayor Steve Luecke (D), Mishawaka Mayor Jeff Rea (R) and Michigan City Mayor Charles Oberlie (R).

That sounds good --a lot of broad support for protecting tax payers, right?

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/16987235.htm

Posted on Wed, Mar. 28, 2007

Editorial briefs

Get your pens ready

Opponents of Fort Wayne Community Schools’ $500 million building project seem to have collected enough signatures to trigger a remonstrance process. The county auditor’s office has 15 days to verify the signatures, after which a 30-day period will be set so opponents and supporters can try to outdo each other in petition signers.

There is now spirited discussion over which side will win. Opponents of capital projects seem to win these petition drives about half the time, but this is by far the biggest project ever proposed, and the effect on property taxes will be significant. On the other hand, the most recent remonstrance was defeated by supporters of the Allen County Public Library’s expensive remodeling plan on the strength of hard work by volunteers. The school system will be able to muster many more volunteers than the library had.

One thing is certainly true. If you are a property owner in the Fort Wayne Community Schools district, this affects you. Make up your mind and sign one side’s petition – or don’t complain later if you don’t like the outcome.

Mmmm-kay.....

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/16987242.htm

Posted on Wed, Mar. 28, 2007

Letters to the editor

We’re not fooled by money grabs

There’s a business that uses the slogan “our reputation is our future.” Our community leaders should take note. The school task force chairman raised money from contractors to elect board members who will vote on his building recommendations, but our leaders say it’s unimportant to them how that looks.

The news media willingly promote the attendance estimates for the new stadium to help sell the Harrison Square project. Just months before, media reports insisted baseball attendance is grossly exaggerated. Even if we believe those estimates and you doubled the ticket prices, with the extra going to pay off the stadium, by the time the current players are on Social Security the stadium would be half paid.

That’s ironic, since we’re told Memorial Stadium is shot after 13 years. Politicians say no property tax will be used. If we have all that money available from other funds, and they won’t need to levy additional property tax to replace the money diverted from those funds, then we were being overtaxed to begin with, weren’t we?

The money grabs keep getting more outlandish and frequent. This isn’t only about revitalization. It’s about exploiting one class of taxpayers because politicians can. If anyone tries to question one of these schemes, people pushing it cry that the taxpayers are dumb hicks. They are the ones who keep wanting money from us. Is that supposed to inspire future support?

Indiana leads the nation in home foreclosures. It’s not the taxpayers who are dumb; it’s the people who think we will rally behind leaders who don’t care who their plans hurt or leaders we don’t think we can trust. You should have learned that from the government-consolidation meetings. Fort Wayne’s future won’t be determined by how many breaks our leaders give to every promoter with an agenda to push, but rather by how few they give to the taxpaying customers they expect will support them.

Douglas D. Rodenbeck Sr.

Yeah, that whole private or public money thing does get some reactions.
Let's have someone else explain it:

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/16819604.htm

Posted on Fri, Mar. 02, 2007

A guest column by Ron Reinking

Muncie and Ball brothers show strength of private developments

You could read the recent news that all but one hotel developer refrained from bidding on the Harrison Square project two ways: 1) That the city didn’t make its incentive package rich enough; or 2) that the experts judged the project economically and politically infeasible, as one pointedly said in his letter to the city.

Now, there is room for two points of view on downtown development. Indeed, if there were an obvious solution, there would be no troubled downtowns.You should be concerned, though, when one side confuses itself with the other. It is then that the discussion becomes a shell game and in the shuffle it becomes impossible to find the pea, impossible for your community to arrive at a logical strategy for growth. So it is that Fort Wayne and Allen County government, using tax revenue from myriad sources, have come to be confused with private investment. This is a consequence of the legislature removing traditional constraints on how tax revenue can be used, i.e., a tax on restaurants meant only to add a wing to a coliseum might now be used to build competing restaurants, sports stadiums, hotels, retail shops and condominiums.
Indiana history, however, tells us that prosperity comes to those communities that understand the inherent economic differences between private and public money and are wary of commingling the two.

That lesson is ironic, as it turns out. For there is another story about how Ball Glass came to Indiana. It is told by Frank Clayton Ball in his 1937 memoir. And although his story has the same ending, it teaches a different lesson.

Dr. Cecil Bohanon of the economics department of Ball State University explains that Ball had narrowed his search to Muncie and Bowling Green, Ohio, both having the requisite supply of natural gas for firing glass.

In Bowling Green, the city council had argued for 10 days over an incentive package that required issuance of a municipal bond secured by property taxes. The use of property tax unavoidably split the community into two factions, one with property and one without.

And as we in Fort Wayne seem to be learning the hard way, the politics of taking money from some people and giving it to other people can be complex. Ball left for Muncie before the council could reach a decision.

In Muncie, a decision was ready and waiting. A syndicate of businessmen (independent of local government) had purchased 120 acres surrounding the site proposed for Ball’s glass plant. Here is Bohanon’s analysis, published in the spring 2004 issue of The Indiana Policy Review, of their ultimately successful proposal:

“I doubt if they gave the gift ($5,000 and seven acres) to the Balls entirely out of public-spiritedness. I think they gave it on the promise of the development that would ensue, from the pros- pects of an increase in the value of their property adjacent to the Ball plant.

“Yes, these folks may also have been public-spirited; I have no question that they were. But they also had private interests. Back in Bowling Green, where public spiritedness was supposed to rule, everyone was arguing and trying to pick each other’s pockets.”

In Fort Wayne, déjÀ vu, the argument on city council still is between those who think growth should be prompted by government and those who think not.

Again, they both have well-crafted positions. Again, they both have the economic well-being of Fort Wayne at heart.

Nonetheless, it would be wise to ask proponents of downtown development which school they favor — Muncie or Bowling Green. Beware the one who says both. The two are miles apart on the economic map, and only one uses its own money.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ronald R. Reinking owns an accounting firm with offices in downtown Fort Wayne.

Remember the old saying "If it doesn't play in Peoria"? Well, how about
"If it's not financially feasable in Fort Wayne?" Bah! That's not important,
if it's for the kids right? ;)
 
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