Which M1A's for distance accuracy?

[The_Next_Generation]

If ultimate accuracy is all you want, then mount an action in an immovable rest. After all, when will folks realize that practical accuracy is just so limiting when you actually hold a rifle, nobody will do so.

Not sure that the snark is totally necessary. We are debating what rifles are most-shootable to 600 yards thatare along the same lines of the M1A (semi-auto, 308, etc.). Sure, iron sights are great and lots of fun (I used to have a K31 that was a blast with the tangent sights!). However the easily-scoped, free-floated AR10 with any of the easily-installed match triggers is simply the better option (as far as money is concerned).

I personally don't think you'll find an AR-10 any more accurate than an M1A without sinking as much money into it as you would the Springfield to get the same accuracy. And weight-wise, they wouldn't be more than half a pound from each other, with or without optics.

I respectfully disagree here. I think the M1A is a great gun, and lots of fun to manipulate and shoot. I just don't think you are going to be able to pick up an MOA-or-less M1A without dropping a lot of money into one. Someone chimed in earlier with one, but spent something like $3,000 on the rifle+parts+labor. If money is no object, and someone is after a super durable semi-308 that is as accurate as a $1,200 AR10 then by all means follow your heart. There are lots of decent scopes out there for $300-$400 (SWFA and vortex come to mind) that are as reliable as anything else.

Sure, most free-floated AR10s cost about the same as a standard M1A (actually, the DMPS LR308 is actually $1199 MSRP, M1A is $1739MSRP). You might spend $50 more for a decent M1A mount, but at the end of the day the setups will probably cost the same. The standard M1A comes in at 9.3lb in a Walnut stock (listed as 8.8lb with the composite version) and the DPMS LR308 is listed as 11.25lb. There are lighter AR10s available, but that DPMS will certainly outshoot a standard M1A.

In my opinion these are two rifles with different purposes. Not trying to knock one or the other.

 

[eastbank]

irons are great if to have decent eye sight, close to your target or the target is as big as a house( maybe not quite that big). try hitting a hanging 20" gong at 1000yds or a 10" gong at 500yds. its pretty hard with out it being centered on a larger target.i shoot and enjoy irons, but good glass make it alot easier on little bitty targets way out there. eastbank.

 

[Pete D.]

Optics

"Going to want optics" got 600 yards.
All National Match Service Rifle competition is done with iron sights. All NM Highpower competition is done with iron sights.
Slow fire prone is at 600 yards. The national record for 20 shots is 200-20X. The x-ring is six inches in diameter.

 

[IndianaBoy]

"Going to want optics" got 600 yards.
All National Match Service Rifle competition is done with iron sights. All NM Highpower competition is done with iron sights.
Slow fire prone is at 600 yards. The national record for 20 shots is 200-20X. The x-ring is six inches in diameter.

Yes and those rifles are useless for anything other than national match high power.

 

[Welding Rod]

How big is the black and how big is the paper itself, and the also how big is the painted target stand?

I shoot in High Power (reduced to 200 yards) and shoot pretty decent scores, but we also have a "so you think you are a sniper" match where we shoot a 6" gong at only 200 yards from various positions. It was painted dark green for our last match and it hangs from a small diameter old rusted steel stand. There is an earth backstop. Nobody is hitting that gong, other than dumb luck, without glass... in spite of knowing exactly where it was located I couldn't even see it and so didn't compete as I only had irons. When it is painted white I can see it, but not dark green, or after many hits when the white paint gets worn.

 

[Pete D.]

use

Yes and those rifles are useless for anything other than national match high power.

Two things:
Even if that were true, it has little to do with the idea that one "needs" a scope for 600 yard shooting. A scope makes shooting easier - and that is good - but it is not necessary.
While I agree that the match rifles used in HP competition probably do not get used for any other purpose, stating that they are useless for any other purpose is incorrect.

Nobody is hitting that gong, other than dumb luck, without glass... in spite of knowing exactly where it was located I couldn't even see it and so didn't compete as I only had irons.

Understandably true....Of course there are circumstances where another type of sight will produce better results than irons. If I were shooting at night, I would surely want a night vision scope.

 

[Ash]

Next Gen, I'm not being snarky. If accuracy is the end all be all, then that is that. Suggesting anything that is not as hyper accurate as a laser, or if one expects to go boom, a fixed-mount opens one to some better alternative being suggested - better at least in the mind of the suggester.

As I said, "Accurate shooting with irons is a pleasure all its own."

This is akin to demanding why bow hunters use a bow when a rifle is so superior. An M14 type rifle need not have a bad cheek weld and still shoot. Are they expensive? Yes, any M14 is expensive. So what? If that ain't your cup of coffee, go drink tea.

 

[JohnMc]

In regard to the OP's change of direction, the DPMS LR-308s are very price competitive.
Rifle, Scope Mount, Cheek Riser; Sum
M1A, $1,739.00, $123.00, $34.99; $1,896.99
Lite Hunter, 1,499.00, $59.95, $0.00; $1,558.95
LR-308 24” Bull bbl, $1,199.00, $59.95, $0.00; $1,258.95

Rifle weights M1A 9.3 lbs, Lite Hunter 7.99 lbs, LR-308, 11.25 lbs

The rifle prices are MSRP, the scope mounts are the Springfield aluminum one sv. the SWFA SSALT. Note that the SSALT is often about $10 when purchased in a scope package from SWFA. The cheek riser price is from Midway and I assumed it to be necessary, though I don't use one myself and suffer from the chin weld vs cheek weld. Also, I used a Bassett mount, as it's a bit lighter and easier to install.
A buddy's R-25 (re-badged DPMS) can clang a legal paper sized hunk of steel all day at 400 yards, the farthest we have available. Another buddy has the LR-308 bull bbl, it's very front heavy.
That said, my M1A will only be pried from my proverbial cold, dead hands.

 

[S.B.]

Are the new Armalites anything like the originals? Could you post pictures, of yours, please? One thing that has kept me away from AR10s is I'm not sure magaizines are interchangeable between manufactures.
I had several friends who built up some from Portuguese parts way back when.
Steve

 

[JohnMc]

S.B.
Nobody's .308/7.62x51 AR is exactly like an original Armalite.
Most .308/7.62x51 ARs are built using AR-15 parts, as many as possible (like springs, trigger bits, etc, but NOT barrels, or receivers) to save manufacturing costs.
Rock River uses FN-FAL mags, maybe not modified, IIRC. Older post Eagle Arms purchase Armalite AR-10s (they have the only right to the trademarked name "AR-10"), 1996 or so until recently, use modified M-14 mags. These have been renamed to AR-10B, I think. Bushmaster had something different too, before they got made part of the same "family" as DPMS.
These will accept original AR-10 waffle mags: M-110 sniper (US Army), new Armalite AR-10A, Bushmaster .308 ORC, Colt LE901-16S, CORE Rifle Systems CORE30, DPMS LR308, JP Enterprises LRP-07, KAC SR25, LaRue OBR, Les Baer .308, LMT .308 MWS, LWRCI REPR, Mega Arms MATEN, POF P-308, Remington R-25, Ruger SR-762, S&W M&P10, SIG716, and others.
I got that from the Magpul website, as the 308 PMags are waffle-compatible.

 

[Dave P]

M-14's

My rifles don't like scopes. (Yes, mainly range shooting)

 

[eastbank]

would some one please post the whole target size ,frame,target, bullseye and 10x ring they are shooting at 500yds and 1000yrds. irons are fine and i like and use them,but you can only shot as good as you can see the target. with my peep sights i set them up to shoot at 6 o-clock with the bull ball sitting on top of my square post front sight and on large targets i adjust my sights to shoot high into the center of the large target. try that that with the 20" bullseye hanging all by its self at 1000yrds and post how you do. you need a reference point to hit the 20" target and with irons you will not have it. eastbank.

 

[Welding Rod]

At 600 yards the black is 36" (7 ring) and the 5 ring is 60".

At 1,000 yards the black is 44" (8 ring) and the rest of the target paper is 6 feet x 6 feet (!!!) which scores a 6 if hit.

 

[lencac]

Don't kid yourself, M1A's are awesome. Mine will hit a gong at 600 yrds. virtually every time. Gong is top 18" of an acetylene tank hung by chain. I've tagged coyotes at over 700 yrds. Granted this is a NM M1A but it will run with the big dogs without a hitch. Nothing wrong with the AR10 platform but there is certainly nothing wrong with the M1A platform either. I'd put my 20+ year old M1A up against most anything. Meaning the human error will decide who wins, not the rifle.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

These are 50 shot groups shot off the bench at 100 yrds. I use 50 shot groups to test accuracy since it is too easy to luck into a good 5 shot group. I figure if the SuperMatch can do this at 100 yrds, it should do ok at 600.

 

[lencac]

Here's a little Armalite experimental SASS rifle I have. It's quite beastly

 

[short barrel]

My opinion is that a Springfield M1A is the best rifle ever produced. And to put a scope on one is admitting that you can't see. I'm 67. I can see. I don't compete in matches, but I put my M1A at the top of anyone's list as doing whatever a rifle is meant to do. A scope on an M1A is utterly ridiculous. It wasn't intended to wear a scope. It's incredibly accurate as is. Much of the rifle's romance and function is lost when scope mounted. If a person is not in love with the M1A, that's okay, but he ought to get something else. Most of my guns are handguns. I have 3 rifles. But the M1A is the one I'd keep if the gov't wanted to come and take all but one. I'd keep it above my beloved 1911. Dressing an M1A up is like putting a dress and lipstick on a male. It's just perverted. They are what they are. IMO, an M1A is the absolute best of ANY gun ever made. It needs no additions. If it were alive, it would say it didn't WANT any additions. Can you tell that I love my M1A?

 

[lencac]

I think Short barrel likes his M1A
I love mine ................. scope and all. Sometimes I do pull the scope off for a little fun................... and there is no better feeling or shooting rifle. Totally reliable, powerful and accurate. Excellent ergonomics too and sexy as hell.

 

[eastbank]

i like peep sights and they have their place on the range and field, but they don,t help you at dawn-twilight or at longer distances at small targets. come shoot groundhogs with me for a day with you peep sighted rifle and i,ll use the same type rifle with a scope on it and the second day we will switch rifles, the shoots will be from maybe 50yds to over 400yds at stationery hogs and running hogs in open fields and fence rows and grown up wood lots. the peep sighted rifle will make some good shots, but the scoped rifle will make those shots and others the peep sighted rifle will not make. these hunts are taken while walking and stalking. i like to do these hunts on several friends farms, it a little like a walking sniper with out the danger and it sharpens up your hunting skills for hunting season. eastbank.

 

[lencac]

That sounds like a whole bunch of fun eastbank