crew590
Member
Thanks for the info on what happened at Ruby Ridge. Back on topic, how did that effect the FBI's tactics used today (if in any way)?
Sorry for the mini-hijack, Edmond
Jay
Sorry for the mini-hijack, Edmond
Jay
Which modern shootouts changed the way we think?
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thexrayboy
Member
Whether Ruby Ridge is actually a factor in current LEO doctrine is hard to say.
What it did demonstrate is the willingness of the FBI to change its rules of
engagement. That in and of itself is not bad. Flexibility is usually a good thing. However in that one case the change essentially made the sniper the judge jury and executioner in one. I don't doubt much thought has gone into
negotiating strategies for groups of people that refuse to surrender. The fallout from another Waco/Ruby Ridge debacle could be costly. Less lethal alternatives would be one area that is being actively researched for effective alternatives at many levels.
What it did demonstrate is the willingness of the FBI to change its rules of
engagement. That in and of itself is not bad. Flexibility is usually a good thing. However in that one case the change essentially made the sniper the judge jury and executioner in one. I don't doubt much thought has gone into
negotiating strategies for groups of people that refuse to surrender. The fallout from another Waco/Ruby Ridge debacle could be costly. Less lethal alternatives would be one area that is being actively researched for effective alternatives at many levels.
ProguninTN
Member
N. Hollywood
Besides the need for rifles, I would think that this would show that shooters must be capable of hitting a target's head as well as the COM.
Besides the need for rifles, I would think that this would show that shooters must be capable of hitting a target's head as well as the COM.
I do not think that any of these events actually changed the way agencies think - rather reminded them what can happen when routine operations fall into counting on everything .. being routine.
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sterling180
Member
Micheal Ryan's bloodbath in Hungerford,saw the formation of S019 Armed Response vechicles-in London-and the upgrading of certain weapons,in all UK police forces armouries.At least Thames Valley Police,had decent firearms,when they tracked Ryan down.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Definitely the shootout with the Branch Dividiens (Waco), and with Randy
Weaver (Ruby Ridge). I had a chance to speak with a deouty U.S. Marshal
that was at both of those shootouts; and his thoughts were that things
went terribly wrong at both places. At the time we was a member of the
Marshal's first responder (SWAT) team based out of Lafayette, LA.
As we all know, the FBI sniper shot the wrong person in the Ruby Ridge
incident; as the round fired killed Randy Weavers wife. I think that one
incident prompted more training for all federal law enforcement.
Weaver (Ruby Ridge). I had a chance to speak with a deouty U.S. Marshal
that was at both of those shootouts; and his thoughts were that things
went terribly wrong at both places. At the time we was a member of the
Marshal's first responder (SWAT) team based out of Lafayette, LA.
As we all know, the FBI sniper shot the wrong person in the Ruby Ridge
incident; as the round fired killed Randy Weavers wife. I think that one
incident prompted more training for all federal law enforcement.
Pilgrim
Member
Newhall Incident
The darkest day in the patrol's history was April 6, 1970, when four CHP officers, Officers James Pence, Roger Gore, Walt Frago, and George Alleyn, were gunned down in less than five minutes in Newhall, California (CHP History). Two officers, Officers Frago and Gore, initially stopped men in a vehicle for brandishing a weapon. Before the officers could approach, they came under fire and both were killed. Two additional officers, Officers Pence and Alleyn, responding to the incident were fired upon before they could see either the downed officers or the suspects. The officers wounded one of the suspects but succumbed to their injuries. One of the suspects was caught in the ensuing search of the area, and the other suspect committed suicide.
The tragic loss at Newhall led to major reforms in training procedures, firearms use, and arrest techniques. The Newhall Incident has since become an important part of the training of all law enforcement officers. It was the beginning of the term "officer safety" (i.e., "You will train how you will fight as you will fight how you train.")
The darkest day in the patrol's history was April 6, 1970, when four CHP officers, Officers James Pence, Roger Gore, Walt Frago, and George Alleyn, were gunned down in less than five minutes in Newhall, California (CHP History). Two officers, Officers Frago and Gore, initially stopped men in a vehicle for brandishing a weapon. Before the officers could approach, they came under fire and both were killed. Two additional officers, Officers Pence and Alleyn, responding to the incident were fired upon before they could see either the downed officers or the suspects. The officers wounded one of the suspects but succumbed to their injuries. One of the suspects was caught in the ensuing search of the area, and the other suspect committed suicide.
The tragic loss at Newhall led to major reforms in training procedures, firearms use, and arrest techniques. The Newhall Incident has since become an important part of the training of all law enforcement officers. It was the beginning of the term "officer safety" (i.e., "You will train how you will fight as you will fight how you train.")
Deanimator
Member
It's important to recall that at Ruby Ridge, nobody was ASKED to surrender until AFTER Vicki Weaver was shot. Nor did the Marshals have warrants to be on the property, as I recall.
The other important aspect of Ruby Ridge is the after-action obstruction of justice via shredding of documents, and the complete failure of the DoJ and FBI to punish same.
I'm amazed that it took to post #32 to mention the Newhall "incident". This was the "wake up call" for police training. At the time CHP carried .357, but trained with .38s. They ejected their emptys into their hand to drop into cans. If they had a problem, they raised their hand for an instructor to help them. This was pretty much the way all PD's trained. The incident was extensively reviewed and lessons learned applied to police training nationwide.
I wonder if the killing of Ian James Campbell in Bakersfield, CA (the basis of Joseph Wambaugh's "The Onion Field") had an impact on police procedures and tactics. I know Karl Hettinger was slammed for handing over his firearm. I suspect the incident would have had considerable impact at the LAPD.
Exmasonite
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don't forget the DC sniper killings.
not necessarily a "shootout" but had populace terrified and even pumping gas under cover. the sheer randomness made it a very effective terrorist activity.
not necessarily a "shootout" but had populace terrified and even pumping gas under cover. the sheer randomness made it a very effective terrorist activity.
FBI vs Platt/Matix - entire new round invented after the FBI changed/formalized the performance criteria for ammo. Much more emphasis placed on penetration instead of high energy numbers. Critcal look at 9mm. Halt of the exodus from revolvers to wondernines, and redirected huge LE interest to the new .40SW.
madmattmd
Member
The assassination of Maryland State Trooper Greg Presbury in 1977. On a personal level, I was working that night (restaurant manager, not LEO) less than three miles down that highway from the incident. As a young man that had contemplated a career with the MSP, this deeply affected me and caused several significant changes in LEO training as well.
As a reminder, Trooper Presbury executed a standard (at the time) traffic stop in the late evening hours (10-11pm?) on Maryland Route 3 near the Dorsey Road exit. The driver turned out to be an ex-con with a .45ACP 1911. At some point, the driver began firing at Trooper Presbury, who took cover behind his cruiser's open driver’s door (This was one of the incidents that brought about the change to parking a cruiser behind the stopped vehicle at a pronounced angle to put more metal between LEO and BG). At some point, Trooper Presbury, per his training, shot his S&W .357 magnum revolver empty. While trying to reload 6 rounds, the BG ran up and shot Trooper Presbury several times, killing him. This horrific shooting caused the MSP and others to completely change the way firearms training was handled. It was determined that if Trooper Presbury would have loaded only two (or three) rounds, he would have been able to fire upon his assailant when he approached and perhaps save his life (range training changed to shoot two-reload, shoot three-reload, etc. so that when under stress, the LEO would not fall back on habit and try to reload six. The idea was to reload only as many as you need). As I remember, the BG was wounded and soon caught. All this over a stupid traffic violation. What a waste.
I too have been affected by all too frequent scenes of violence caught on video. The North Hollywood and Miami shootings are two of the most vivid along with the one of the Texas lawman shot and killed off camera after being attacked. Another is the engagement with the Kehoe brothers and two LEO’s you occasionally see on the “police video” shows. It’s totally amazing to see how many rounds were fired and no one hit.
I thank my lucky stars every day for those men and women in LE that serve are communities. No, they probably aren’t going to be there to protect me personally if I’m attacked, but that’s where my responsibility comes in.
Take care,
Matt
As a reminder, Trooper Presbury executed a standard (at the time) traffic stop in the late evening hours (10-11pm?) on Maryland Route 3 near the Dorsey Road exit. The driver turned out to be an ex-con with a .45ACP 1911. At some point, the driver began firing at Trooper Presbury, who took cover behind his cruiser's open driver’s door (This was one of the incidents that brought about the change to parking a cruiser behind the stopped vehicle at a pronounced angle to put more metal between LEO and BG). At some point, Trooper Presbury, per his training, shot his S&W .357 magnum revolver empty. While trying to reload 6 rounds, the BG ran up and shot Trooper Presbury several times, killing him. This horrific shooting caused the MSP and others to completely change the way firearms training was handled. It was determined that if Trooper Presbury would have loaded only two (or three) rounds, he would have been able to fire upon his assailant when he approached and perhaps save his life (range training changed to shoot two-reload, shoot three-reload, etc. so that when under stress, the LEO would not fall back on habit and try to reload six. The idea was to reload only as many as you need). As I remember, the BG was wounded and soon caught. All this over a stupid traffic violation. What a waste.
I too have been affected by all too frequent scenes of violence caught on video. The North Hollywood and Miami shootings are two of the most vivid along with the one of the Texas lawman shot and killed off camera after being attacked. Another is the engagement with the Kehoe brothers and two LEO’s you occasionally see on the “police video” shows. It’s totally amazing to see how many rounds were fired and no one hit.
I thank my lucky stars every day for those men and women in LE that serve are communities. No, they probably aren’t going to be there to protect me personally if I’m attacked, but that’s where my responsibility comes in.
Take care,
Matt
sacp81170a
Member
As others have mentioned, numerous incidents have added up to changes in procedures and training. One of the lessons gleaned from the FBI shootout was that you need to practice operating your weapon with one hand disabled. Reloading a semi with a disabled hand is doable, reloading a revolver with one hand in a firefight would be a nightmare. This was another major influence on the move from revolvers to semis.
One thing that always seems to get left out is operating and reloading your rifle one handed. With an AR or variant on a single point sling, you can do it fairly simply. Recoil firing one handed is also much more manageable. With a lever or bolt action weapon, you may get shot before you can get another round in the chamber. The same goes for pump vs. autoloading shotguns. Just another training and equipment issue to consider.
Anyone else heard of any other lessons that haven't been mentioned yet? A big one for our small town departments is that our dispatch is now run by the county from a central location. County routinely checks the status of all officers who are 10-8 on an hourly basis if they've had no other contact with them.
One thing that always seems to get left out is operating and reloading your rifle one handed. With an AR or variant on a single point sling, you can do it fairly simply. Recoil firing one handed is also much more manageable. With a lever or bolt action weapon, you may get shot before you can get another round in the chamber. The same goes for pump vs. autoloading shotguns. Just another training and equipment issue to consider.
Anyone else heard of any other lessons that haven't been mentioned yet? A big one for our small town departments is that our dispatch is now run by the county from a central location. County routinely checks the status of all officers who are 10-8 on an hourly basis if they've had no other contact with them.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
You are talking about "active shooter response" and this was an issue brought out by Columbine.
One of the bad guys was wearing body armor on his legs and arms. The other had less armor. Both suffered multiple wounds on their extremeties.
As for the police being under heavy auto fire, they were not. They were under light auto fire. None of the weapons carried by the robbers were considered heavy machineguns. On top of that, it wasn't that the police were under heavy fire so much as every time one of the cops shot at the bad guys, or hit a bad guy, the bad guy would turn and hose the area. A motor cop who came up on the scene from the side went through several set of shooting at the backs of the robbers as they would shoot in another direction, then duck and cover as his area was sprayed.
The fact that the bad guys were in body armor was recognized VERY EARLY in the fight. Radio calls went out that the robbers were wearing "heavy armor" and to aim for the head. LAPD et al. expended some 800 or 900 rounds and not a single head shot was landed. Why? In part at the time, LAPD officers were not regularly trained beyond 25 yards with their side arms. From the location of the bad guys by their car in the parking lot to the intersection where two LAPD cars were stopped and from behind which cops and civilians were injured (famous video of one guy bleeding excessively and the blood pooling under his elbow) was a distance of about 75 yards. The key kiosk was about 50 but was not a fighting point for the cops for very long (officer with shotgun managed a 35 yard or so shot with buckshot, but was then struck across the glutes as he shielded other officers). All other positions were beyond 75 yards until the bad guys attempted to flee.
Bottom line, from 75 yards and further, being trained to 25 yards and not knowing bullet drop, dealing with moving and firing targets, making head shots is extremely difficult. I have yet to make the shot myself on a moving head-sized target from 75 yards although I can make it on a stationary one. With that said, it took me a good amount of ammo to figure out the amount of drop in my gun for that distance and even then I can't make the shot consistently. So I have the benefit of not being under fire, a stationary target, multiple attempts, the ability to see where my errant rounds are hitting, and it is still a difficult shot. LAPD officers had none of those advantages.
Can you please expand upon this statement? Especially since you bolded part of it.
You might want to do some more research. The people who scribbled out a new lethal force policy on the way to RR did so w/o any authority. The snipers and agents on scene knew this and did the correct thing - disregarded it. Try looking at the book "Cold Zero" by one of the snipers from HRT who was at RR and Waco. The sniper who killed Vicky Weaver was shooting because Randy threatened an FBI helicopter when he pointed his weapon at it. This is within the deadly force policy and if I am not mistaken he was acquitted of any wrong-doing.
Your post sounds like the snivelling of an anti-govt militia junky. I hope that isn't who you are.
Not a hijack at all. It's the type of information that I'm looking for. I'm looking for effects on law enforcement tactics.
This is great stuff, guys. Please keep it coming. I'm really interested in things that you've read and also your analysis of the situations.
I'm sensing a theme with a lot of these incidents: Beat officer responds with standard "walk up and ask questions" procedures. BG surprises the officer and the officer get's shot/killed. The Newhall incident. the officer who was shot and killed through the door while knocking, the first responders to N. Hollywood. All these events started out with a routine low-risk manner, and all escalated because the BGs surprised the first responders with either superior firepower or superior tenacity, sometimes both.
Now contrast that with the "police are too militaristic" theory. What if the first unit to respond to the N. Hollywood shootout was the SWAT team? Would it have lasted 44 minutes and injure close to 20 people? What if the officers at Newhall had MP5s and armor? Would they have gotten taken out so fast? We will never know about these "what if" questions. They happened the way they did and it's a shame. Now what if the child pornography raid that Shaq involved a guy who coulnd't stand being taken alive? What if 2 detectives in suits knocked on the door and prompty got blown away by a raving lunatic who didn't want to go ti prison as a known child-sex offender? it could happen. And I don't think it's worth the officers lives to risk it. Again, it happened one way, and we won't know anything else. But anything is possible.
We all talk about how we don't want to get taken for saps by a BG. We talk about tactics with a guy who asks for spare change and that we should be forceful, even mean in order to avaoind getting hurt. We say "if anyone is in my house at night, I'm unloading on him". Basically, we are willing to do anything and everything legal, and even what's not legal, to protect our lives and the lives of our families. If it mean's we're rude, that's too bad. As long as we get home safe and alive.
Why is it we don't want cops to do the same? Why do some on THR insist that the police disadvantage themselves just to appear "friendly"? If using a SWAT team 100 times means that it saves the life of an officer in even 1 incident, it's worth it. I know a lot of THR have this "the cops and the feds are out to get me and grab my guns" idea. But the truth is, most actual cops on the job are just guys with families they want to see again. For some reason, they chose to make a living putting themselves in harms way for US. When you see a shady situation, you get as far away from it as you can. But they intentionally go into it. They drive around a 3am looking for trouble to get involved in, and to stop it. Even if it means they might end up bleeding to death in the street while their family is asleep. And some do. Give them a break. If they want to wear armor and carry black mean looking "assault rifles", let them. So tomorrow they can come out and do it again. If they want to rush into a house and surprise the thugs with Ingrams, let them. So tomorrow they will still be alive to surprise even more thugs.
Go ahead and blame politicians like the Mayor of NY, but don't blame the officer on the ground trying to get home safely. A little perceived rudeness is a very small price to pay for an officer who is still alive.
Now contrast that with the "police are too militaristic" theory. What if the first unit to respond to the N. Hollywood shootout was the SWAT team? Would it have lasted 44 minutes and injure close to 20 people? What if the officers at Newhall had MP5s and armor? Would they have gotten taken out so fast? We will never know about these "what if" questions. They happened the way they did and it's a shame. Now what if the child pornography raid that Shaq involved a guy who coulnd't stand being taken alive? What if 2 detectives in suits knocked on the door and prompty got blown away by a raving lunatic who didn't want to go ti prison as a known child-sex offender? it could happen. And I don't think it's worth the officers lives to risk it. Again, it happened one way, and we won't know anything else. But anything is possible.
We all talk about how we don't want to get taken for saps by a BG. We talk about tactics with a guy who asks for spare change and that we should be forceful, even mean in order to avaoind getting hurt. We say "if anyone is in my house at night, I'm unloading on him". Basically, we are willing to do anything and everything legal, and even what's not legal, to protect our lives and the lives of our families. If it mean's we're rude, that's too bad. As long as we get home safe and alive.
Why is it we don't want cops to do the same? Why do some on THR insist that the police disadvantage themselves just to appear "friendly"? If using a SWAT team 100 times means that it saves the life of an officer in even 1 incident, it's worth it. I know a lot of THR have this "the cops and the feds are out to get me and grab my guns" idea. But the truth is, most actual cops on the job are just guys with families they want to see again. For some reason, they chose to make a living putting themselves in harms way for US. When you see a shady situation, you get as far away from it as you can. But they intentionally go into it. They drive around a 3am looking for trouble to get involved in, and to stop it. Even if it means they might end up bleeding to death in the street while their family is asleep. And some do. Give them a break. If they want to wear armor and carry black mean looking "assault rifles", let them. So tomorrow they can come out and do it again. If they want to rush into a house and surprise the thugs with Ingrams, let them. So tomorrow they will still be alive to surprise even more thugs.
Go ahead and blame politicians like the Mayor of NY, but don't blame the officer on the ground trying to get home safely. A little perceived rudeness is a very small price to pay for an officer who is still alive.
Shifty
Member
ever get manhandled to the ground by half a dozen officers at gun point in the middle of a busy street with your baby screaming in the back seat because you and your vehicle were a match to a suspects???
ever looked up into the maw of an 870 aimed right at your nose with a boot in your back??
well it sucks, and though i dont blame them in the least, (because thats how i would have done it too) i was still effin pissed and scared at the time. and of course i acted the perps part by being angry and defensive and dropping the "you've got the wrong guy" and "i didnt do anything" lines.
is it "militarized" training???? perhaps, but its also the way it needs to be done. cuz folks, the world aint gettin any safer.
ever looked up into the maw of an 870 aimed right at your nose with a boot in your back??
well it sucks, and though i dont blame them in the least, (because thats how i would have done it too) i was still effin pissed and scared at the time. and of course i acted the perps part by being angry and defensive and dropping the "you've got the wrong guy" and "i didnt do anything" lines.
is it "militarized" training???? perhaps, but its also the way it needs to be done. cuz folks, the world aint gettin any safer.
I have to go with Mencia on this one.
Not just making fun here, or being insulting. It's a hard job. I've done it. But you know it's a hard job going in. If you're not ready for it, don't take the job. Be a florist, or truck driver or something. But don't take the job, then gripe about what a crappy job it is.
Let's take a giant step back in time and consider Bonnie and Clyde's massacre. By that I mean the law enforcement of the day setting an ambush using shotguns and BARs for these two. Pretty notorious in its day. Just looking at their car tells you they weren't even considering letting these two go quietly.
John Dillinger being setup and taken down might be another one. Just a flash in the pan for such a notorious criminal.
John Dillinger being setup and taken down might be another one. Just a flash in the pan for such a notorious criminal.
I recall one shootout, can't remember where or when, when one officer emptied a magazine trying to make a headshot on a bad guy. He checked things out after the fact to help himself understand why he had missed. As I recall, he found a nice 6-9 shot group about six inches above where he hoped to be aiming. Six inches/ six feet the result was the same.
Deanimator
Member
That was certainly his story, anyway...
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