Which modern shootouts changed the way we think?

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I think it is a salient point that these shootouts have indeed led to what some call the "militarization of police."


On a different note, I find it interesting that Waco changed tactics to a more "wait it out/negotiate" approach, but some more current events (Amish shootout, e.g.) tend to be moving back away from the wait/negotiate approach and back toward "go in as soon as you can." I think we can trace the heavy emphasis on negotiation back to Waco, in some respects. And in some incidents, negotiation is still the way to go. However, more recently, negotiation can't even be started before the perp(s) are killed or kill themselves. Just interesting to me.
 
I think it is a salient point that these shootouts have indeed led to what some call the "militarization of police."


On a different note, I find it interesting that Waco changed tactics to a more "wait it out/negotiate" approach, but some more current events (Amish shootout, e.g.) tend to be moving back away from the wait/negotiate approach and back toward "go in as soon as you can." I think we can trace the heavy emphasis on negotiation back to Waco, in some respects. And in some incidents, negotiation is still the way to go. However, more recently, negotiation can't even be started before the perp(s) are killed or kill themselves. Just interesting to me.
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I think that regardless of your opinion of the Branch Davidians, there's a fundamental difference between Waco and the Amish school house shooting.

The Branch Davidians didn't ATTACK anyone. Before the BATF showed up, there was no shooting, stabbing, etc. going on.

Contrast this with the Amish shootings, Columbine, etc. Somebody engaged in an aggressive attack against innocent third parties. There was nothing to discuss or negotiate. The perpetrators were actively engaged in killing helpless victims. They had no demands nor grievances. They were there to rape, torture, and or kill and all the talk in the world wasn't going to change that.

Koresh wasn't shooting the Davidians, nor was he threatening to do so. His beef was with the BATF and FBI, not his own followers. Nor indeed was he shooting at the BATF and FBI after the initial engagement. He could have been waited out. Egos in the HRT didn't permit that.
 
Some of this has to deal with an officers individual ability to "ramp up" to deal with a threat. At a routine traffic stop the officer SHOULD be cordial and polite until the stopee earns a hostile response, then he must be met with aggressive force back-up by proper training. A lot of the events listed above involved officers getting "over their heads" during relatively routine police-citizen transactions and then lacking the training to deal with the situation effectively.

It is a whole nuther ball game when the INITIAL presentation of the perps is of aggression and violence, such as a school shooting, bank robbery, etc. Then the police should use maximum force applied with discretion to minimize damage on all sides.

The problem comes in when maximum force starts getting used when there is not a clear threat. Take that raid on the "child porn" guy with Shaq. They had 10 guys involved and hit the wrong house. Was there ANY expectation of resistance? Was there ANY reason to send that many guys? I bet a simple knock on the door by 3-4 uniformed officers would have resolved the situation peacefully (since they had the wrong house to begin with, it CERTAINLY would have been a better resolution).

I think we can expand the capabilities of "beat cops" without having to rely so heavily on militarized SWAT-style teams. Maybe the war on drugs and the ferocity of gangs has driven us to this point though.
 
One question: Why do SWAT guys wear masks? What brought that on? I can understand safety glasses/goggles and other personal protective gear, maybe even a protective face gear that does that, but most pics I have seen involve just a covering.


Either way, sometimes threads like these make me perfectly happy and content being a production engineer. The dangers of CO and H2 are easy to live with. :)
 
Off the cuff, I'd say so they cannot be identified by perps/witnesses (in case they also work undercover sometimes). I'd also guess that there is some psychological effect that some PhD came up with as to why masks make the entry team "safer" as well. :confused:

Now, I've also seen SWAT guys in just helmets and shooting glasses upon entry.
 
I have seen that also.
I guess it doesn't really bother me logically, but "masked men" generally brings to mind criminals or bank robbers, not Law Enforcement Officers.
 
SWAT masks/politeness

Masks are also used for facial protection. Hoods are often made of Nomex, which is a fire retardant material.

Yes officers should be polite, but being overpolite can get one killed. Example, see the video of Deputy Sheriff Kyle Dinkheller, Laurens County, GA Sheriff's Office.
 
Originally posted by Deanimator:
Koresh wasn't shooting the Davidians, nor was he threatening to do so. His beef was with the BATF and FBI, not his own followers. Nor indeed was he shooting at the BATF and FBI after the initial engagement. He could have been waited out. Egos in the HRT didn't permit that.
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Are you kidding me?? Where do you get your information? HRT and all involved were more than patient. They went in because Koresh was about to start killing his own folks. You might want to do some research before jumping to exceptionally stupid assumptions like that.

Originally posted by Jason10mm:
The problem comes in when maximum force starts getting used when there is not a clear threat. Take that raid on the "child porn" guy with Shaq. They had 10 guys involved and hit the wrong house. Was there ANY expectation of resistance? Was there ANY reason to send that many guys? I bet a simple knock on the door by 3-4 uniformed officers would have resolved the situation peacefully
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It is done that way for the safety of all involved. The use of overwhelming numbers helps assure the subject doesn't get the itch to resist. Even your "whimpy" child porn perps and white collar thieves can get violent when they realize you are about to deprive them of all their worldly possessions and their freedom.

A cop making a traffic stop has to deal with it alone or with a single partner. When making a planned arrest there is no reason to handicap yourself by limiting the numbers. Of course there is also the fact that you have to secure a piece of property and need enough bodies to do so since it takes time to find all the evidence.
 
The only definitive answer I've heard/read is that it makes them more seem fearsome to their opponents.
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So they can escape the personal consequences of these raids, both of the legal sort and the other.

I don't imagine you see ID tags on those who are wearing masks.
 
Hijacked with crazy talk about what happened at Waco.
 
The truth is it is dangerous to be a cop and if representing what is law and order and justice by being highly visible and a potential target scares you then don't be a cop. Cops will die, it is a part of the whole protecting and serving motto. Yes military tactics and strong arm brute force is safer. Yes secret police and people with no rights to privacy makes policing easier. Yes it would be much safer and easier to do your job as a cop if you lived in a socialist or communist country like China where citizens can't have firearms and unless your facing organized crime (which can do as it wishes to the sheep in such places.) Perhaps you should look to Mexico as an example if you like such policies. They are very militaristic, thier citizens are not allowed to protect themselves, but you can buy a $500 full auto AK and join the local Cartel, or join the police and enjoy bribes (or be assassinated.) Otherwise you have no way to defend yourself. The values of the police are so self serving they are detached from those they serve.
What is best for police is not what is best for people. That is why our system was designed around the Sheriff. You vote someone into power to deal with law enforcement and he is a nice polite guy that keeps order. If someone hurts him you gather a posse and hunt them down like an animal.
You can't avoid danger without turning into something which america is not.

When police become soldiers waging a war you get insurgencies because the law enforcement and the public have become detached from one another.
 
One modern shootout that SHOULD have changed a lot of thinking, but I fear did not, was profiled on Discovery Channel's FBI Files. I watched it November of 2003. Here's a link to my lengthy review and commentary on WA-CCW.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wa-ccw/message/29048

I'll abbreviate here.

In January 1997, two bank robbers walk into a Richmond (VA) NationsBank and start blasting. BG1 shot and killed one teller, shot and wounded another, shot at a third employee, then his Loricin .380 malfunctioned. BG2 brandishing a TEC-9 and was supposed to shoot the armed bank guard. The TEC-9 malfunctioned without a shot being fired. [Doesn't speak well of betting one's life on the low end of the quality rating in firearms.]

From the still images, the guard was standing perhaps six feet away from two armed men who had entered the bank with guns drawn and one of them firing. To draw, fire, and hit two men COM from six feet away is a feat that requires only mediocre marksmanship and training. Whether it's 16 rounds of 9mm split between two BGs, or six rounds of .38 Special, both BGs should have been effectively "stopped". That the guard did NOT fire, I believe, speaks to the training, or lack thereof, provided to armed security guards. "Give up the money" is the mantra.

The guard did push the lone customer out the door and to cover, only to be pursued and shot by BG2 who had an AR15 rifle slung over his shoulder and under his jacket. [Why he would lead with a Loricin rather than an AR is beyond me.] Guard survived and returned inside to engage the two BGs. Unfortunately, the guard was shot, seriously wounded, and permanently blinded without stopping the two BGs.

Two Richmond cops were parked near the bank, and a passerby alerted them to the gunfire. The cops engaged, exchanged fire with the BGs, and pursued the two BGs on foot till they lost 'em. Richmond PD and the FBI put a lot of effort into the capture of these two AHs. One dead teller, one seriously wounded and disabled guard, two AHs in prison I think on death row.

Bank guards paid $8-$15 an hour aren't likely to have been to LFI, FAS, Gunsite, et al. However, it would not have taken an LFI graduate to turn two incarcerated AHs into two dead AHs. I daresay 4-6 hours of training of draw, fire, challenge, malfunction clearance, and reloading drills would do it.
 
Modern as in the past few decades?

I would say the North Hollywood Bank of America shootout. it showded my how unprepared and un-gunned(for lack of a better word) regular patrole police are. It could have been ended much sooner, in my opinion
 
I'm loving this. The knowledge and analysis here is great.

What I'm actually doing is trying to put together a few short case studies for our PI/Security Agency's firearms class. We have a lot of people who are ignorant as to why they should be fully trained with a firearm. And we also have a lot of guys who want to be trained but do not have the means for a $400 LFI class or an NRA class or whatever.

What I'm trying to do is teach people to realize the importance of training and how it should continue and evolve. We have a lot of guys who want to carry guns but do not go through the effort to thoroughly train. Obviously, they do not work armed for us.
 
The Steve Chaney and Mike Thompson shootings, profiled on the calibrepress video "Ultimate Survivors", are noteworthy.

The Chaney shooting demonstrates that once it becomes necessary to shoot, shoot until the threat subsides or you run out of ammo. Also, once the threat subsides, ensure that it truly HAS subsided.

The Thompson shooting demonstrates that with training, awareness and preparedness, one can prevail even when outnumbered, outgunned, or starting against a drawn gun.

Both shootings demonstrate that dogged determination is often necessary to prevail, but that one can prevail under awful conditions against very bad people.
 
Lance Thomas

Right away I think of Lance Thomas, the LA jeweler who defended himself FIVE times in armed robberies. Reading the accounts of his encounters, three things come to mind.

1. Action is faster than reaction. Even when he was being held at gunpoint, Thomas was able to draw and fire before his attackers.

2. You must have the "warrior mindset" and be prepared to go all the way. You have to want to win more than the other guy.

3. For the most part, it doesn't matter if you have a 9mm or a .44, shot placement is what matters. That and the number of shots.
 
Edmond

What I'm actually doing is trying to put together a few short case studies for our PI/Security Agency's firearms class. We have a lot of people who are ignorant as to why they should be fully trained with a firearm. And we also have a lot of guys who want to be trained but do not have the means for a $400 LFI class or an NRA class or whatever.
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Best wishes on your project. In fact, my exposure to some of the aforementioned incidents came while undergoing security training.
 
Edmond said:
What I'm actually doing is trying to put together a few short case studies for our PI/Security Agency's firearms class.
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You can order "Ultimate Survivors", "Judicious Use of Deadly Force" and others here:
http://www.ayoob.com/

Calibre Press runs a Street Survival seminar, but I don't know about the cost. They also have books and videos available, but you must be LE to order. Not sure whether PI status is good enough.
http://www.calibrepress.com

Edmond said:
we also have a lot of guys who want to be trained but do not have the means for a $400 LFI class
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LFI-1 actually runs $800, but one guy or gal who's a pretty good student and teacher, and diligent and dedicated with safety issues, could probably serve as a "force multiplier" after attending by regurgitating that which they learned for the guys.

Don't know where you are geographically. Other schools might be darn near as good for the shooting skills, but for the classroom only stuff I highly recommend LFI's Judicious Use of Deadly Force, which is only $400.
http://www.ayoob.com/df.html

Uncle Mas does travel and the schedule shows JUDF classes in MN, NC and IL over the next 5 or 6 months.
http://www.ayoob.com/lfi96.html
 
Are you kidding me?? Where do you get your information? HRT and all involved were more than patient. They went in because Koresh was about to start killing his own folks. You might want to do some research before jumping to exceptionally stupid assumptions like that.
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Not only is that NOT true, it was never even claimed at the time of the event. Your claim above is completely and utterly spurious.
 
Two come to mind for me:

First is the Miami shooting of Platt, and his response. My understanding is he took what should have been a fatal shot, but, it stopped, after penetrating about 12 inches, and, needed to go 14-16.

This, I hope, will make police forces and others realize that the ammunition currently sold as "self-defense" or commonly used by LEO, do not penetrate sufficiently. I found this prevalent after reviewing the "one shot stop results" by the clowns. What stood out was that yes, you can take a 44 magnum, and turn it into a 9mm, using a light bullet, and lowering the velocity, and, achieve the same questionable penetration the industry has used as standard for a long time. IIRC, the number of people hit by full penetration of rounds through the target, are under 1%. In other words, the straw man of over penetration has resulted in, in some cases, ineffective factory ammo, and, the result has been the death of officers, and FBI personnel. Bad shooting is a far greater hazard then overpenetration.

Second was the Rodney King incident:

Not because of the incident, but because of the total ineffectiveness of the LA police, and Fire Department, to be able to function in such insanity. Their
actions, to pull out, and set up a perimeter, leaving everyone to their own defenses, and prosecuting from the air, people trying to protect their homes.

With the constant importing by gangs, and, the Mexican Mafia, it only points out the necessity to arm yourself, and, be prepared for such incidents. Yes, they will have AK-47's, so others better be prepared.

What has amazed me is the gangs failing to take advantage of their arms situation, and, only seem to use it against rival gangs. I guess we are fortunate that they are just trying to make a buck...:fire:

S
 
Socrates said:
First is the Miami shooting of Platt, and his response. My understanding is he took what should have been a fatal shot, but, it stopped, after penetrating about 12 inches, and, needed to go 14-16.
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Umm, it wasn't until after, and because of, the Miami Incident that the FBI convened it's first Wound Ballistics Seminar. Platt's non-survivable chest wound from a 115 grain Winchester Silvertip is how the FBI came up with it's 12 inches of penetration rule.
http://www.thegunzone.com/miami-ammo.html
http://www.thegunzone.com/platt-shot.html

TGZ has a lot of good info about Miami and other things. Here a site search of all things Platt.
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF...zone.com&sitesearch=http://www.thegunzone.com

Here are Dean Speir's long excellent reads on the subject.
http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html
http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86b.html

W. French Anderson has a well regarded book on the subject.
http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1355

Socrates said:
the number of people hit by full penetration of rounds through the target, are under 1%.
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Penetration is of paramount importance, and the FBI Firearms Training Unit knows this. But 1%? Which ballcap did ya pull that one outta?
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Socrates said:
Second was the Rodney King incident: Not because of the incident, but because of the total ineffectiveness of the LA police, and Fire Department, to be able to function in such insanity.
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For two reasons, I would put blame where it belongs--on the people of Los Angeles.

The second largest city in America does not have a police force commensurate with it's population. Los Angelinos have fewer cops per X number of the citizenry, and that tends to force the LAPD to be much more pro-active so as to keep crime in check. NYPD 35K, Chicago PD 13K, LAPD 9K.

The LAPD issued PR-24 batons to it's officers, took a proven Aikido based 16 hour curriculum, whittled it down to 4 hours (I believe), removed the armlocks and other restraining techniques, left in only the blocks and strikes, and then was surprised that it's officers while escalating force on an almost textbook basis began using PR-24 batons to, get this, STRIKE. If you give someone only a hammer, then every problem is going to start looking like a nail.
 
To me, not really any shoot outs but the gang violence in the 80s-90s here in Los Angeles...between the Bloods and the Crips. That's one of many reasons why CA has banned assault weapons.

These gangs would get access to a whole bunch of weapons: uzis, AKs, Mac10s, etc.

Interesting topic.
 
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