Which modern shootouts changed the way we think?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally posted by Deanimator:
Not only is that NOT true, it was never even claimed at the time of the event. Your claim above is completely and utterly spurious.
Maybe you should go read "No Heroes" and "Cold Zero" for starters. Books by folks who were there.

You still have not defended your overly stupid comment that the "egos on HRT" kept them from waiting out Koresh. They waited far longer than appropriate, but you clearly have an axe to grind. Maybe you should take your conspiracy theory garbage to a forum where they appreciate your fiction.
 
Didn't the shooting of unarmed FBI agents by gangsters back in the 1930s in the push for approval for FBI agents to be issued handguns for protection?

wasn't it the Kansas City Massacre?? http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/floyd/floyd.htm

I seem to remember the movie the FBI Story with James Stewart saying this (the movie, for the most part, was supposed to be a pretty accurate story of the history of the FBI through the eyes of a fictional agent)

I'll do some online hunting

EDIT:
http://www.espionageinfo.com/Ep-Fo/FBI-United-States-Federal-Bureau-of-Investigation.html

This link mentions that Federal agents were permitted to carry guns about 2 years after the kidnapping of the Lindburg baby in 1932 (which would put it about 1 year after Kansas City massacre)


EDIT:

June 18, 1934
Congress enacted a series of anti-crime legislation over the months of May and June 1934 in response to crimes like the September 1933 Kansas City Massacre where gangsters killed DOI Agent Raymond Caffrey, Jr. and other law enforcement officials. These May/June Crime Bills gave Special Agents the power of arrest and the authority to carry firearms. Previously, Special Agents could only make a "citizen's arrest," otherwise the agent had to call on a U.S. Marshal or local police officer to take custody of a suspect.

From this link: http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/history/historicdates.htm
 
Los Angeles Riots

While not a classic shootout, there was enough shooting and general mayhem going around that generaly changed my outlook on the entire deal. I have always had guns and was armed during those festivites. But I learned that my mindset was not right, it changed fast in a short amount of time. But I still found myself playing by the "rules" when there wasn't any.

It is very hard to write down what all happened ( BTW I never fired a round) but the entire situation just gave me a wake up call. Example, I had an AR-15 but I got rid of it due to the original assualt weapon law that went into effect years before. During the riots I realized that was exactly the gun I needed to protect my family and property. Don't ge me wrong I was by no means naked and unable to defend my self. I just wished I had more. If someone had yanked my car door open they would have found more than another victim.

I vowed then and there never to be caught with my pants down again due to the government telling me what is best for me. Sorry if I went off track with this, but this is the biggest gun related thing that has ever happened to me.
 
Newhall CA, Deldobio shooting, Diallo shooting

Some major incidents come to mind...

The "Newhall" shooting changed several policies and training standards in CA. This was a critical incident where several CHP members were shot. It was a sad case of poor training and tactics.

The Diallo incident in New York City where the 4 NYPD officers shot 42 rounds at the unarmed African immigrant who they had chased into a doorway. That case was huge mess for the NYPD.

The Deldobio incident in NYC was a major case of poor judgement and operations. An off duty LEO shot and wounded an "undercover" cop on a subway train. Millions of $$$ were spent on the civil cases and it was a big embarrassment for the NYPD.

Rusty
 
Doug.38PR said:
Didn't the shooting of unarmed FBI agents by gangsters back in the 1930s in the push for approval for FBI agents to be issued handguns for protection?
http://kansascity.fbi.gov/massacre.htm

On May 18, 1934, less than a year later, President Franklin Roosevelt signed into law several statutes increasing the Bureau's jurisdiction. A month later, agents were given power of arrest and authority to carry firearms at all times. The agency, renamed the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) on July 1, 1935, was given the mandate, power, and tools to fight gangster crime.
 
Maybe you should go read "No Heroes" and "Cold Zero" for starters. Books by folks who were there.

You still have not defended your overly stupid comment that the "egos on HRT" kept them from waiting out Koresh. They waited far longer than appropriate, but you clearly have an axe to grind. Maybe you should take your conspiracy theory garbage to a forum where they appreciate your fiction.
The hostage negotiators seem to disagree.

Of course seeing how nobody was dying or was about to die, I can see how the HRT couldn't let that sit...

By the way, where's the other door...?
 
I seem to remember the movie the FBI Story with James Stewart saying this (the movie, for the most part, was supposed to be a pretty accurate story of the history of the FBI through the eyes of a fictional agent)
Certainly an entertaining movie, but hardly a documentary. Its portrayal of the Japanese internment is nothing short of surreal. It's as unrelated to actual events as any 911 conspiracy theory. My mother pointed it out to me when I was a little kid. That was the last rational political comment she's ever made.
 
RustyShackleford said:
The Deldobio incident in NYC was a major case of poor judgement and operations. An off duty LEO shot and wounded an "undercover" cop on a subway train. Millions of $$$ were spent on the civil cases and it was a big embarrassment for the NYPD.
I was friends with Officer DelDebbio's brother at the time all this happened. Lots went wrong. The "victim" made LOTS of mistakes. A sad story all around.

Side Note: A couple of years prior to the shooting, DelDebbio was assaulted by a group of thugs while on a subway train with his wife. When they found his NYPD identification, they cut off his trigger finger. The poor guy's been through a lot.
 
The Miami shootout is what turned LEO from 9mm to 40S&W. The FBI used the 9mm as a scapegoat after they brought pistols to a rifle fight. The shot in question went through a man's arm, (the thick part near the shoulder) then into his chest from the side contacting bone, etc. and barely reached the heart but didn't penetrate it. Its likely no .45 would have fared better, and the path of a bullet is such a random affair its ludicrious to blame the fact that it didn't stop him on the fact that it was a 9mm. But that's why we now have 10mm and 40S&W.
 
The Miami FBI firefight.
Even though the 9mm isn't an exceptional round, the FBI still scapegoated "ammunition failure" as the reason for the heavy FBI casualties.
Seems like the FBI let their ego and arrogance get to them.
 
Its portrayal of the Japanese internment is nothing short of surreal.

I think you're thinking of a different movie. The one I am talking about didn't say anything about the Japanese internment.

The movie, I'm sure had it's inaccuracies, and mostly focused on the positive side of things (movies back then mostly did....which isn't necessarily a bad thing :) )
 
In regards to the impending arguments about WACO or Ruby Ridge, we might as well just stop now. No one side has a claim to "the real truth" in either of these stories, no matter how much anyone thinks they do. The truth is probably somewhere in between. So there's really no point in rehashing the same things that have been said for years.
 
Re: The miami shootout,

Gee, the fact that at least one FBI agent had his gun sitting loose on the seat of the car and couldn't find it after the car was involved in a low speed collision with the suspects, knocking the gun to the floor, had nothing to do with the issues there?
 
Not a shootout, just a tragic accident

Reserve Officer Ted Brassinga was killed while engaged in hostage role playing in preparation for the World Cup in '94. Since then most departments have gone to plastic non guns in their training scenarios.
 
Active shooter, Field command and equipment.

Columbine was the deciding factor in revamping police policy on active shooter scenarios. Before that, the thinking was to wait it out until the high-speed low-drag guys got there. Now, the first responders are to go in and do what they can to end it, then hand off responsibility to SWAT when they show up.

The Waco and Ruby Ridge incidents changed the way command structure is set up. Prior to these incidents, SWAT commanders outranked on scene negotiators. Because of the mishandling of these events, determined by internal after-action reports and not us "conspiracy nuts", negotiators and SWAT must agree before SWAT engages. In other words, Inline 6, the agencies involved think the same as people you are busting down. Egos got folks killed and policy was changed to prevent it from happening again.

The North Hollywood shootout was the media sensation that caused people, citizens who vote for levies and beaurocracts who decide who gets issued what, that more than a handgun may at times be needed to deal with out of the ordinary circumstances. AR's began turning up in cruisers and every patrol car here in Ohio now has a shotgun. This also accelerated the drive toward more "real world" shooting skill in training, not just tiny groups on paper at 25 yards.

The WTC attack of 9/11/01 revealed a dire need for much more reliable and streamlined comms. This has been slow to become a working reality, but revamping and equiping procedures and equipment doesn't come fast or cheap.
 
I think you're thinking of a different movie. The one I am talking about didn't say anything about the Japanese internment.
Actually, if I remember correctly, there's a throwaway line of narration by Jimmy Stewart in which he talks about the FBI rounding up aliens and sending them home. This is at best a half-truth, since it shunts attention away from the Japanese Internment.

As I recall, the movie was made with the full cooperation of J. Edgar Hoover, who didn't tolerate ANY criticism. I have read that Hoover opposed the internment. The line may have been slid in to praise the FBI [ie. Hoover] without directly criticizing the Internment.
 
Apologize if it was already mentioned :


The OK Corral...(The ultimate gun control resolution !!):D
 
evan price said:
Re: The miami shootout,

Gee, the fact that at least one FBI agent had his gun sitting loose on the seat of the car and couldn't find it after the car was involved in a low speed collision with the suspects, knocking the gun to the floor, had nothing to do with the issues there?
FBI SAs are law enforcement, but they aren't cops. Cops in many areas, even relatively safe and quiet areas, regularly have their guns outta their holsters and pointed at someone--even though most will neither shoot nor kill someone in the line of duty in their careers. FBI SAs likely won't ever take their guns outta the holster, unless it's on the range.

FBI SAs often make arrests over the telephone. "Yes, Mr. Smith. We can meet you at the federal building. It's at the corner of Fifth and Main. There's a public parking lot across the street. If someone will be dropping you off, have them drop you off on Fifth--there's less traffic and it's safer there."

The FBI serves an important role, IMHO, but down and dirty cop work might be too much for them methinks.
 
Well, the incompetence of the Montreal Police was fixed after the l'École Polytechnique de Montréal murders in 1989. The most recent school shootings in Montreal, last month, saw them not hesitate to go in after the nutbar.
 
Last edited:
FBI SAs often make arrests over the telephone. "Yes, Mr. Smith. We can meet you at the federal building. It's at the corner of Fifth and Main. There's a public parking lot across the street. If someone will be dropping you off, have them drop you off on Fifth--there's less traffic and it's safer there."
I had the sad task in 1980 of telling a sailor on USS Ranger his uncle, a FBI SA, was killed in his office by a suspect he was interviewing.

Pilgrim
 
No offense to the FBI but it seems like the people they want are more of the type that are office professionals than people who can work in the trenches and deal with criminal matters.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top