Which rifles are shortest, say under 30 inches?

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I've been thinking of buying a rifle for HD, and I find the AR a little more unwieldy indoors (long and front heavy) than I'd like. I was wondering which rifles come close to the NFA limit of 26 inches? The Tavor and PS90 seem to be right around 26", and the CX4 Storm comes in at 29". Did I miss any?
 
Desert Tech if if you are into a precision rifle. Switch barrel AND super short. SRS is normal caliber like 308 260 and 338. HTI is similar rifle but in 50 bmg, 408, 416 etc.

Very sweet rifles.

For a carbine type rifle I like the Steyr AUG. Not cheap, but awesome rifle.

Desert Tech is also making a carbine now, the MDR. Check it out. I have not seen one in person, but if it is as nice as their precision rifles then it will be a heck of a gun.
 
I have 3 AR's, each set up very differently. With the stock at it's shortest length the one set up for HD is 32" long and about 6.5 lbs. That is close enough for me and worth it over a pistol caliber. But there are certainly shorter if you go bullpup or PCC.
 
My Tavor is about 27" overall with a 16" barrel and flash suppressor, and has completely displaced my 16" AR as my HD carbine; an AUG or RDB would be about the same. If you had the brake welded, you could put on a shorter buttpad and get down to just over 26", but 27" is plenty short even for my tiny hallways and doors. The trigger is heavier than an AR's, and Geissle makes an excellent replacement trigger and FCG, but I decided for an HD gun I liked the pull weight right where it was from the factory.

As to handling, at least for me the Tavor is faster in target transitions, faster in shoulder transitions, and (even though reloading isn't likely necessary) slightly faster to reload. Being lighter in the hands, and using a long-stroke gas piston system and heavier trigger, it does lose to the AR in long-range accuracy, though, and splits are a little slower since shorter guns have a little more muzzle rise.
 
If you prefer a rifle caliber, but also know that a 36" hallway is an issue - then a "rifle" might be the problem.

This is why some of us prefer the AR pistol - 30 round 5.56 magazine, 10.5" barrel, 25 1/2" overall length. Still getting over 2600 fps muzzle speeds, 70 gr OTM ammo has no issue working at near point contact distances. It will even carry 1,000 foot pounds of force out to 80m which suits my deer hunting tactics at present.

Some detractors have issues:
"It's loud." Yes, any gun inside will be, most importantly the OTHER guys gun, wear electronic earmuffs.
"There is no stock." Exactly, that's a long range precision stabilizing accessory. Handguns at 3 feet don't need stocks.
"The bullets go thru walls." ALL bullets go thru walls, map out where you shouldn't be shooting and don't hide behind furniture and appliances they can shoot thru, either.
"You don't need 30 rounds." You don't know what you might need other than to stop the intruder as quickly as possible to stop them shooting up the house. A 30 round mag gets their attention - it promotes flight and dominates the fight.

An AR pistol has the exact same ballistic performance as an CAR 15 or XM177 - the shorty carbine of Special Forces Vietnam fame, and it predates issuing the M16 line troops. It's still issued for shipboarding and houseclearing operations to this day - the CQBR and Mk 18. That's a 51 year history and the services haven't given up on it yet. It's effective and works. At present we don't get full auto and avoiding an SBR tax means never installing a stock - but that doesn't make it any less potent. It makes it a lot more legal however, and more controllable in semi auto.

"It's a range toy." No, not so much. Not if it's issued to Navy SEALS and DEVGRU. Again - it's the ballistic equal. I don't see a 70 grain bullet travelling over 2600 fps with over 1,000 foot pounds of force as toying around. It's a rifle caliber weapon in a pistol configuration. For all the pistol caliber carbine fans out there, I find it odd there are so many detractors of a battle proven weapon in service older than they are.

It's an official recommendation in that job.
 
lysanderxiii said:
There is a lot more to HD than just "the shortest is the best"...

How well the thing handles (balance), how reliable it is, and how well you can operate it play it to it.

Personally, I would find a 32.5 inch long AR a far better choice than a 26 inch long bullpup
Click to expand...

I have an M&P Sport II, which is ~32" collapsed. It's OK for me, but I think it's probably a little too much gun for my wife, both in terms of front heaviness and length. I found it to be a little awkward indoors (though it might be less so with practice/time). For the battle proven rifles it looks like my choices are limited to Tavor/PS90/CX4/Aug. Thanks for all the input everyone, you certainly highlighted a few models I didn't think of and gave me a few things to think about.
 
I'm content with my 16" AR, Combat Commander and turkey model 870.
I don't live in a sprawling mansion with narrow hallways.
Figure if the badguys are in they proly know where I am and I need to take cover and blast them from there.
 
lysanderxiii said:
There is a lot more to HD than just "the shortest is the best"...

How well the thing handles (balance), how reliable it is, and how well you can operate it play it to it.

Personally, I would find a 32.5 inch long AR a far better choice than a 26 inch long bullpup
Click to expand...

Agree completely. My HD AR is 35" with the stock in the position I like and suppressor attached.
 
Hookeye said:
I don't live in a sprawling mansion with narrow hallways.
Click to expand...

This is a reality for most people - most meaning 99.99%.

A rifle will never handle as fast and short as a handgun, not counting any AR/AK pistol as a handgun. For in-home distances, a rifle doesn't offer a real precision advantage over a well practiced handgun either. So if you really want fast handing in close quarters, you're not looking at a long gun. The fact tactical operators use SMG's and carbines and clear houses in teams doesn't have much bearing for a guy who wakes up to someone stealing his TV in the middle of the night. Teams have the advantage of directional effect as the TEAM enters and flows through a building, individuals don't have someone covering their tail in that manner, so the rules for the direction of fighting change. If someone breaks into my basement window (view out, ground level, only way into that side of the house), by the time I get down there, there are 4 rooms to clear - with my back exposed to 2 of them if I clear the other 2 first and vice versa... My likelihood to need to pivot quickly is much greater than a sweeping team, where a lead would cover forward and members behind would clear each room - sweeping forward for THEIR rifle. The Team's back should never be exposed, but an individual doesn't have that advantage.

Even in the event you're using a long gun in the house, if you're trained to be effective with a long gun, the length doesn't matter much anyway when you're talking 25" vs. 35". No matter how short a rifle might be, it'll never be effective if you're standing side by side in a 36"-48" wide space with your target - you're too damned close. So in reality, if your body fits in the space, your rifle fits. You're not a helicopter, you don't need 360* rotor clearance to make a 180* turn with your rifle. Muzzle down, muzzle up, and you're facing 180* from where you started, even in a 20" wide hallway. Honestly works the same way with a pistol - you are not a helicopter - if you're turning 180*, either muzzle down, muzzle up, or back into high compressed and back out, nobody should be turning around with their rifle shouldered and level or their pistol extended and level...
 
Corn-Picker said:
I've been thinking of buying a rifle for HD, and I find the AR a little more unwieldy indoors (long and front heavy) than I'd like. I was wondering which rifles come close to the NFA limit of 26 inches? The Tavor and PS90 seem to be right around 26", and the CX4 Storm comes in at 29". Did I miss any?
Click to expand...

That PS90 is short and sweet. 30 rounds on tap of easy to control shooting. Yes, the cartridge it fires is on the weak side compared to rifle based bullpups, but I know one friend of mine that will use his PS90 in his retirement years due to ease of use.
 
My shortest is a 11.5/5.5 XM style carbine at 31.25 inches. It feels stubby compared to an M4, part of that is the lighter weight.
 
Just to play devil's advocate, my 44mag lever action comes in at 33" OAL.

It points very naturally for me and does a very good job of "turning off" medium sized game. I mounted a red dot on it and it is a very very handy little package. It excels in the thick brush where one simply cannot "helicopter" around to get a shot off.

I think the Speer 200gr Golddot 1000fps 44mag load would be just about right for social situations. Although my 240gr XTP load is my go-to for deer and performs with authority.

Currently I do not keep a long gun handy for HD. I rely on a handgun for various reasons.
 
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in the middle of the night when things go bump, it would go intentionally to my shoulder. , who,s to know and who gives a s#it as long as you and yours are alive. eastbank.
 
redbullitt said:
Desert Tech if if you are into a precision rifle. Switch barrel AND super short. SRS is normal caliber like 308 260 and 338. HTI is similar rifle but in 50 bmg, 408, 416 etc.

Very sweet rifles.

For a carbine type rifle I like the Steyr AUG. Not cheap, but awesome rifle.

Desert Tech is also making a carbine now, the MDR. Check it out. I have not seen one in person, but if it is as nice as their precision rifles then it will be a heck of a gun.
Click to expand...
It's nice to see some innovation in stuff for full powered rifle cartridges. I've little interest in yet another over gussied AR.
I hope they've tightened up the linkages at the bull puppy mill.
 
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