Why .380 instead of small 9mm?

[KevininPa]

Most of the nines or fortys that are the same size as my Sig 232 or Bersa .380 are DAO only. Some are DA/SA, but without a hammer. I like having a hammer. I don't like polymer frames , so that eliminates other guns. The Springfield EMP has caught my eye, but their price is currently not available to me. My Sig is stainless with night sights and would've ordinarily been out of my reach but I got a real good deal on it, hardly used at $400. Right place at the right time. I've already put rounds thru an 1/8 thick stainless pot and car doors ( my buddy has a VERY strange shooting range! ). So I'm not concerned about penetration. Just left my gunsmith's shop today and he had a Polish FEG cheap. Compared it to a PPK he was working on and I liked the size, might be picking it up soon. Pocket gun. Heard the triggers were crap. I figure I'll run about 400 rounds thru it and then decide about him smoothing it out. The price of the gun and his price for smoothing it all out are a third or maybe less than a PPK new. I also have a CZ83 for cooler weather carry. I'm very competent with my .380s and I feel very comfortable carrying them.

Kevin in Pa

 

[Dirty Bob]

KevininPa:
Congrats on the 232. I think the Sig is the best of the .380s. Smooth, accurate, reliable, and not all that big. I think in your shoes, I would've bought it in a few seconds.

I have the Makarov and a Kel-Tec P-11. I shoot the Mak much better than the P-11, so in a way, the platform makes up for the caliber disparity. That said, I generally carry the lighter, more rust-resistant and more powerful P-11. On the other hand, I never felt undergunned when all I had was the Makarov, primarily because I'm confident in how well it shoots and how reliable it is.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[orionengnr]

Quote:
Ah, to think I held a Colt Mustang in my hands last year. Cost at the time: $425.00

I feel your pain. The Mustangs were sweet. I wish Colt or Springfield or somebody would bring them back. I think they'd sell a lot of them.

I hold to my assertion that a lot of us love the pistols that .380 has been chambered in, rather than feeling lots of affection for the caliber itself.

Yup, at $425 I would probably own one blued and one stainless. Problem is, I can't find one under $650 or so.

For that price, I'll stick with my PM9.

 

[sig228]

Show me a 9mm with the exact dimensions of a P3AT that doesn't cost over $450.

Exactly. The closest, in my opinion is a Rohrbaugh. The only dealer in South Florida that sells these new (at least that I know of) wants $1,300 for a MSRP $895 gun. No way. I'll stick to my $250.00 P3AT. (Although that Pocket Mustang looks pretty cool.....)

 

[romma]

Yup, at $425 I would probably own one blued and one stainless. Problem is, I can't find one under $650 or so.

For that price, I'll stick with my PM9.

Thought of a revival for this thread: I too have a PM9, sometimes a nice piece like the Mustang is nice to have for the collection. I now know where one is for $500... Waiting to find out the current condition of it.

 

[DAdams]

Pocket Carrys


PM 9 147 gr GoldDot or 115gr CORON DPX +P
Took awhile to get the kinks out, including a trip back to the Mothership but I really like the PM form factor. It's
now in good performance and shoots most anything reliably. It has been worth the tribulation.


Seecamp 380 102gr Golden Saber or SGD 90. New with 24 rounds through it.



S&W M&P 340 with CT 405. SGD 135gr Short Barrel or 158 gr BB low flash soft lead SWC-HC model 20C.
or .357 but I haven't had the call yet beyond +P. Next time at the range.
This has to be the ultimate 38/357 snub IMO.


My wife's 642 with CT 405. Standard Pressure BB 158 gr for short barrel.
Mika Roundcut Holster for the Pocket.

 

[DAdams]

380 Tests



What happened with the DPX in the Seecamp?

I have successfully used the Golden Sabres in my LWS 380, but they are a heavy bullet & kick pretty good.

I have tested the dpx and in the secamp IMO they do not work....they feed fine etc...but never expand with a clothes test and only expand a hair in bare water and then only sometimes.

Nowif ya want penetration use the dpx..they really go deep.

The dpx is much harsher as far as recoil compared to the GS.IMO

Here is a dpx gold dot test with the seecamp .380




Testing by JoJohns of the Seecamp site.



Here is a "shootout" with the LWS 380 and a Rohrbaugh 9mm.
http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin...08864

Good photo/commentary.

More .380 testing from a Seecamp.
This time with CORBON DPX
http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin...12398


Some good ammunition tests.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns...s.htm
380 vs 38
380 vs 9
Etc. I have them all but there are times when a deeply concealed .380 is likely going to cover me. Social and business events where even my 14 ounce snubbie might show and be out of place.

More reports this one with some velocity data for the LWS 380.
http://www.thegunzone.com/lws380.html#nb8
Pre Speer Goldot apparently. I'm sticking with the Speer at 90gr and the Golden Sabres at 102 gr. for now.

 

[SevenMichael]

Since looks do matter in a gun, it should be noted that most 9mms in midget packages are plug-ugly.

In an SD situation, I could care less what my gun looks like..... That said, my Springfield EMP 9mm is AWESOME LOOKING !!!

I can't say enough about my EMP. Very small, great balance and outstanding accuracy ! Also, despite the experience of some others, I've had absolutely no problems straight out of the box ! I feel very comfortable carrying it; both for accuracy and concealment.

I looked at the SIG P232 ( .380) very hard, and it's really nice; would nicely compliment my P229 - 9 mm ! It may be picky, but I didn't care for the mag release.

But, my real decision was based on cost. As others have said, I like to shoot my guns frequently, and the price difference between .380 and 9mm can be a large chunk of change !

 

[DAdams]

Seven,Nice EMP

In an SD situation, I could care less what my gun looks like..... That said, my Springfield EMP 9mm is AWESOME LOOKING !!!

True, true. But not a "small 9". At 26 ounces empty it's a bit heavy and much to large for pocket carry. W/o suspenders or going phat. Virtually all of the above weigh 16 ounces or less, loaded. All will fit in your trouser or shorts pocket with a pocket holster.
The Sig 232 at 17.6 ounces (lightest of the three Sig 232 forms) with mag and no ammo is bordering on almost too large and too heavy, but ok for jacket or cargos.

At that weight 26+ounces and compact size vs subcompact or pocket form factor I would opt for an ugly Sig and 15-20 rounds of 9 (but you already have that). But that's another thread.

But, again the EMP sure is purdy.

 

[SevenMichael]

But not a "small 9". At 26 ounces empty it's a bit heavy

If "small 9" means weight, you're right; however, when compared to the SIG P232 the form factor is very close:

Overall Length Overall Height​

SIG P-232:

6.60 " 4.70 "​

EMP :

6.50 " 5.00 "​

I must admit, pocket carry is not my style; usually I carry OWB/belt.

 

[DAdams]

Form Factor and Carry

I wouldn't have thought dimensionally the EMP and 232 that close in size. I'd rather the EMP given the choice.

OWB opens up all sorts of possibilities and forms.

Well, almost all.

Here in the SE with the exception of winter and extreme island time shirt out wear OWB for many is out. It would be my preference, but for most occassions I go pocket.

 

[mindwip]

Bersa .380 are DAO only. Some are DA/SA, but without a hammer. I like having a hammer. I don't like polymer frames , so that eliminates other guns

If i am reading what you said right. You are wrong. Bersa does make a .380 with DA/SA with a hammer thats not a polymer frame. In fact i believe there whole line of pistols have a hammer and are DA/SA.

 

[DAdams]

Bersa Bt 380

Here's my BT 380 with a 9+1 mag.

It has a hammer, safety/decock and is SA/DA.



One of my favorites with over 750 rounds through it. Eats everything I have put through it w/o a glitch or hitch.

It's my "truck gun".

I also use it for introducing new shooters to autos.

 

[mindwip]

I forgot to mention my Bersa has been 100% reliable. And even with the shorter barrel i still shoot as good with it as my Hi-power. To me the 380 is a nice house gun, i an always worried about over penetration and the 380 round has enough energy to stop a bad guy, and wont go through as many walls as a 9mm or 45. Not to mention 380 guns tend to be small and still well built and controllable.

I feel safe with a 380. There are some nice hot 380 loads meant for self defense that work good just fine.


Edit the only bad thing about the gun is after i took of the grips off for a good cleaning one of the grip screws ran away from me. I mean he ran for freedom never to be seen again. I called Bersa and complained about there misbehaving screws and how they run away from owners. They told me that there screws are well trained and never run away. I smell something fishy.

 

[PX15]

JMOFO:

Because you have to use the next best thing until Larry Seecamp gets his fine little pistol bored out to 9mm..

Imagine: LWS9.. Sweet.


JP

 

[JP from Phoenix]

One thing i dont understand is why 380 ammo is more expensive than 9mm, i guess bc 9 is readily available? I would still love to get myself a Beretta Cheetah, thats a sweet little piece

 

[Clipper]

My new PF-9 has retired my P3AT, and yes, I pocket carry.

 

[sm]

Gun Fit

Post number 2 -

Dirty Bob wrote:

I think in most cases it's the pistol -- not the caliber -- that's being chosen.

I have been watching this thread, and some really great input and replies.

Dirty Bob nailed if for me, and some others that have been watching this thread, and in contact with me.

Many of us choose the platform as I call it where Dirty Bob used the term pistol.
Gun fit is that important.

Physically limited persons are included in some that are watching this thread.
Tip up Beretta's for instance are popular with these persons, in .380, 32ACP , 25ACP, and .22lr.

Those persons whole, appreciate the Colt Mustang and Pocket-Lite.
No tool is any better than user of said tool and if the tool Fits, one can better use a tool.

Enjoying the thread, thanks!

 

[Pilot]

I often carry a Beretta 95FS in .380. I just like the gun and how it shoots. Yes, I could carry a smaller, lighter 9MM, but I feel OK with the little Beretta. When I go bigger its a CZ-75D PCR, compact 9MM.

 

[DAdams]

Here is some somehwat real world testing done by Old Grandpa and Scuba/Fly from the Seecamp Forum about a year ago.

hi Doug,
the 12" penetration is a FBI protocol using gelatin. In his third book on Stopping Power, E.Marshall has a chapter by the Border Patrol in which they use 9" to 10" in gelatin as adequate penetration. Most of us are not able to use gelatin so wet newspaper ("wetpack"), water tanks, and water jugs are used. Based on several years of testing we find the wetpack gives penetration of about 2/3 that of gelatin so a comparison can be made. So 8" in wetpack equals close to 12" gelatin.

In 2006 flyandscuba and I did a wetpack test with the LWS 380 using several brands of ammo and compared it to several other pistols we had available. This was also reported in the Ammunition section here back in 2006 along with the benefits of keyholing that occurs. Reposted here is the picture of the wetpack results where you can see the best combination of expansion/penetration was with the Remington GoldenSaber 102gr JHP round. The thing you will note is that when JHP rounds do not fully expand, penetration goes up, exceeding the equivalent 12" gelatin number.

So our opinion is the LWS 380 with recommended ammo does achieve adquate penetration for very reliable self defense use. Maybe not the greatest expansion, but then penetration is excellent.

og

More tests planned later this year.






Back to the original question? Look at the results for the PM9 (3.14 inch barrel). Penetration and good expansion.
The Rohrbaugh might be a bit pricey but small size (pocket carry) and being a 9, it too is a compelling product. KelTec PF9 perhaps as well.


Last Saturdays PM9 drill. It ran all three brands w/o a hitch, plus some 115 gr Independence ball. Which it always likes.

 

[DAdams]

SM

George H. from the Seecamp website said this and it follows the right tool for the right job axiom.

What tool do you need?

I own a R9s, 4 Seecamps, 2 Guardians, and 4 NAA mini revolvers (plus a bunch of other handguns--about 30 or so).

My current "always" gun is the Seecamp 380. Previously, for 5 years or so, it was the NAA 380 Guardian.

When I carry my Rohrbaugh it is in an ankle holster as a BUG to a Glock 36.

My Guardian 380 is now a "coat gun."

Figure out your need, and then the right tool will become self-evident.

 

[KevininPa]

Mindwip.....

Quote:
Bersa .380 are DAO only. Some are DA/SA, but without a hammer. I like having a hammer. I don't like polymer frames , so that eliminates other guns



If i am reading what you said right. You are wrong. Bersa does make a .380 with DA/SA with a hammer thats not a polymer frame. In fact i believe there whole line of pistols have a hammer and are DA/SA.
__________________


This is the whole first sentence Mindwip:

"Most of the nines or fortys that are the same size as my Sig 232 or Bersa .380 are DAO only."

You can go back and double check that. Though I will correct myself on the FEG. They're not Polish but Hungarian. Picked it up for $139 and shoots sweet in SA, though the DA is rather stiff. Groups well, at ten yards I kept all shots within 6" of bullseye first time I ever picked it up to shoot it! Hopefully more shooting will iron out the DA some. I have seen these on Gunbroker from time to time for more. Doesn't happen often but every now and then I just walk into these deals.

Kevin in Pa

 

[mnw42]

Ugly is as ugly does

I have one .380 that is mostly a range queen:

If I could afford anything right now it would be a Glock 36 .45 ACP or one of the small Colts. My Cobra is a little big for pocket carry.

 

[Lonestar49]

9mm over 380, anyday

...

Based on first hand experience, comparing my Sig P232 380 vs my Springfield EMP 9mm, I'd go 9mm for the following reasons:

EMP 9 rounds
Sig 7 rounds

EMP shoots either 115gr or 124gr JHP's more punch

Sig shoots only 95gr JHP's less punch


EMP, a purer recoil, kinda like a 45 cals, IMHO

Sig, snappier recoil, and more torque effect at the same time

EMP far more accurate at all distance's, and far better 2nd, 3rd shot performance with 2 hand grip or one hand grip

Sig, less accurate on following up shots, and is not nearly as accurate shooting one handed.

EMP shoots pure and long, to date, 450 rounds at 100% reliability, with light cleaning, not needing a total disassembly.

Sig, thru 1750 rounds, because of the blow-back action gets dirty quick, powder residue, and it must be completely cleaned, including magazines interior, after 200 rounds, with complete disassembly, or expect jams, most every magazine load thereafter. (this is with my gun).

Read thoughts and facts:

Sig 232 using 95gr JHP's is questionable, in penetration, and expansion, especially in winter time going thru heavy clothing. Therefore, I use only 95gr FMJ for best penetration, summer or winter.

EMP 9mm gives great penetration with expansion using JHP, year round.


EMP, has a side release mag button, pops mag straight out fast, and goes back in fast..

Sig P232 has a bottom "thumb release" that is time comsuming, and mag does not pop out, rather, you must pull it out, and it does not go straight up and in fast, rather, you have to angle it at first, then it will go straight up and in, again, time consuming.

IF in a Jam situation, you will find that IF you have to release the magazine "pressure" to unjam the gun, on its side, it will be eat up ALOT of time and not be pleasant nor easy to do, vs a side release button, and the ease of getting that kind of magazine pressure load off the jam, and correct it much faster.


One type of gun and magazine release and insert operation is forgiving and fast. The other is non-forgiving, slow, and time can be your friend, or it can be the BG's friend.


LS

 

[mavracer]

because some people,myself included feal that accuracy is more important than power.I have more confidence that I could on demand make a head shot out to 15 yards with my walther pp 32 acp.where as my amt backup .45 is delagated to COM only.I realize this was .380 vs 9mm but the analagy would hold even more true if they were so chambered.that said I usually don't carry either opting for my HK P7 which is as accurate a the walther and only a little bigger.and the AMT only sees pocket duty in wet climates when I am keeping my S&W 442 dry.