I'm relatively new to handguns, but over the past couple of months, I've accumulated three (an xd9, a gp100 and a ppk in .380). I was at the range today and I rented a full-size (5") Springfield 1911. I shot fairly well with it (alright, very well) and I'm contemplating getting one in the future, but I was wondering: I've read on this forum rants and raves about how great of a self-defense cartridge the .45 is, but from what I've seen, it has been outclassed by more modern cartridges like .40 S&W, etc., in both muzzle velocity and muzzle energy. Even the 9mm comes close in both those departments, as well. So what makes the .45 so special? Is the allure of the .45 simply the gun that is chambered for it (I speak of the original, the 1911, and its supreme wonderfulness) or is there some ballistic evidence that I haven't yet stumbled upon that solidifies the .45 as the ultimate handgun self-defense cartridge?
Why .45?
- Thread starter drw2514
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A 9mm might expand, but a .45 doesn't shrink.
Seriously, I believe it's more a matter of hitting what you intend to hit - it's more the operator than the cartridge, but the tissue-crushing volume that a bigger bullet achieves just gives one more of an edge. I'll take all the edges I can get.
That being said, the first rule of a gunfight is "Have a gun" - rather a .22 on you than a .45 in the safe back home.
Seriously, I believe it's more a matter of hitting what you intend to hit - it's more the operator than the cartridge, but the tissue-crushing volume that a bigger bullet achieves just gives one more of an edge. I'll take all the edges I can get.
That being said, the first rule of a gunfight is "Have a gun" - rather a .22 on you than a .45 in the safe back home.
Ash
Member
The .45 is a fine self-defense round with a proven record of ability. It starts out at .45 and only gets bigger, whereas 9mm starts smaller and, at best, ends up around the size of .45.
9mm and .40S&W are certainly capable self defense rounds, and have strong followers in their own right. When push came to shove for me, though, I chose .45ACP, even though it was an EAA Witness over my cherished 9mm and .40S&W CZ's.
Ash
9mm and .40S&W are certainly capable self defense rounds, and have strong followers in their own right. When push came to shove for me, though, I chose .45ACP, even though it was an EAA Witness over my cherished 9mm and .40S&W CZ's.
Ash
Hrmmm...
How to compose a reply that most won't disagree with.
I think the arguments you'll see relate to the size of a wound channel. 9mm and .40 S&W and such really depend on the design of the hollow point to expand, but sometimes they don't (clothing plugging the hole, etc). A .45 is almost a half-inch in diameter even if you're shooting ball. So while you've got less velocity with a .45 and therefore less likelihood of expanding, there's a lot less need to expand, too.
Me personally? I shoot 9mm and .45 a lot better than I can shoot a .40 S&W. I'll choose a .45 over a 9mm mainly because of the platform (1911) which I find relatively easy to hit with. That's not to say I'm uncomfortable with 9mm diameter though -- I've got a .357 I'm quite happy with as well.
How to compose a reply that most won't disagree with.
I think the arguments you'll see relate to the size of a wound channel. 9mm and .40 S&W and such really depend on the design of the hollow point to expand, but sometimes they don't (clothing plugging the hole, etc). A .45 is almost a half-inch in diameter even if you're shooting ball. So while you've got less velocity with a .45 and therefore less likelihood of expanding, there's a lot less need to expand, too.
Me personally? I shoot 9mm and .45 a lot better than I can shoot a .40 S&W. I'll choose a .45 over a 9mm mainly because of the platform (1911) which I find relatively easy to hit with. That's not to say I'm uncomfortable with 9mm diameter though -- I've got a .357 I'm quite happy with as well.
Lou22
Member
One reason I carry my .45 when I can over a smaller caliber, is that most handguns rounds don't have much in the way of stopping power, unless you're lucky to hit a part of the nervious system or the heart or a major blood vessel. A lot of times you get an entry hole and maybe an exit hole. The bad guy may end up going down eventually because of loss of blood. A .45 makes a bigger hole, therefore you'd expect faster blood loss.
Maybe oversimplified, but a significant factor.
Lou
Maybe oversimplified, but a significant factor.
Lou
kmrcstintn
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I'm not sure how to answer this so I'm gonna have you visualize something:
Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:
Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed
This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet
.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge
I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)
Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:
Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed
This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet
.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge
I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)
pdowg881
Member
For me, I dont think it would matter if i was hit with a .45 or 9mm. Either way I wouldbe out of the fight, assuming a torso hit. I think most people that aren't use to getting shot will be out no matter what size the bullet. Then again I'm not sure what effect adrenaline may have so I gues I have no clue what I'm saying.
kmrcstintn
Member
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- Jan 5, 2006
- Messages
- 1,236
I'm not sure how to answer this so I'm gonna have you visualize something:
Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:
Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed
This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet
.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge
I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)
This was offered for illustration only. I am not a guru or expert in any sense.
Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:
Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed
This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet
.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge
I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)
This was offered for illustration only. I am not a guru or expert in any sense.
Last edited:
XLMiguel
Member
Because they don't make a .46
But seriously, shot placement is the single biggest determinate of fight stopping ability, but the simple fact is that a good hit with a .45 is still better than the same hit with a smaller [handgun] round, all other things being equal (which is rarely the case). Carry what you shoot well.
But seriously, shot placement is the single biggest determinate of fight stopping ability, but the simple fact is that a good hit with a .45 is still better than the same hit with a smaller [handgun] round, all other things being equal (which is rarely the case). Carry what you shoot well.
You can't go wrong with any of the top defense rounds (9mm, .40, .45 acp, 10 mm, etc).
IMO, the 9mm and .45 acp have the advantage of being easy on the shooter--both rounds are very mild in the recoil department. The .45 of course will make a bigger hole than 9mm if the hollowpoints fail.
The .40 is a great defense round, but IMO isn't quiet as fun for target work due to the snap.
My preference is for .45 ACP (or .40 S&W) to be used in a full sized gun, and 9mm to be used in compacts and subcompacts. My reasoning is that I feel .45 ACP especially doesn't have a lot of velocity to begin with, and I don't think it helps any to fire it in a 3" barrel. 9mm which is typically a fast round I don't think would be as effected when firing in a short barreled pistol.
I think the simple answer is that each shooter needs to select what works best for them. Choose the most powerful round that you can control the best.
IMO, the 9mm and .45 acp have the advantage of being easy on the shooter--both rounds are very mild in the recoil department. The .45 of course will make a bigger hole than 9mm if the hollowpoints fail.
The .40 is a great defense round, but IMO isn't quiet as fun for target work due to the snap.
My preference is for .45 ACP (or .40 S&W) to be used in a full sized gun, and 9mm to be used in compacts and subcompacts. My reasoning is that I feel .45 ACP especially doesn't have a lot of velocity to begin with, and I don't think it helps any to fire it in a 3" barrel. 9mm which is typically a fast round I don't think would be as effected when firing in a short barreled pistol.
I think the simple answer is that each shooter needs to select what works best for them. Choose the most powerful round that you can control the best.
odysseus
Member
Ahhh... the venerable 9mm vs .45 thread.
Both are fine calibers in self defense. Before 9mm was not as good of a choice since round development was weak in the 9mm parabellum. Now I think there are all kinds of good rounds in 9mm. Like someone said, I wouldn't want to be shot with either. I agree with what Derek said - it depends more on what you like, the platform you are shooting from; basically what you feel you shoot better.
Wound cavity is great conversation for the couch, I think both incapacitate as required and both are stopped by vests - so I am not sure about all that analysis and how it applies in real world terms for most anybody here using it in self defense.
What do I prefer personally? .45.
Both are fine calibers in self defense. Before 9mm was not as good of a choice since round development was weak in the 9mm parabellum. Now I think there are all kinds of good rounds in 9mm. Like someone said, I wouldn't want to be shot with either. I agree with what Derek said - it depends more on what you like, the platform you are shooting from; basically what you feel you shoot better.
Wound cavity is great conversation for the couch, I think both incapacitate as required and both are stopped by vests - so I am not sure about all that analysis and how it applies in real world terms for most anybody here using it in self defense.
What do I prefer personally? .45.
MCgunner
Member
The .45 is no better than the 9 and not as good as the .40 on paper. In actual use, they're all pretty weak and there ain't much difference in the best loads of any of 'em. So, for me, the 9 comes in much handier to hide and carry guns, shoots accurate in my subcompact, is powerful, is reliable, and I shoot it well. It don't get no better'n that. They don't make the .45 that will fit a pocket. They don't make the .45 that's as easy to carry. That's why my .45 stays at home. Beside, considering the similar performance, I'd rather have the 9 and more rounds in a smaller gun to boot.
I just never got a .40. It's a good caliber, like I say, on paper a better round than the .45 or 9, but I don't think it's practically that much better. I've got my stuff picked out, I shoot it well, no need to change until they invent the phazer.
I just never got a .40. It's a good caliber, like I say, on paper a better round than the .45 or 9, but I don't think it's practically that much better. I've got my stuff picked out, I shoot it well, no need to change until they invent the phazer.
Texshooter
Member
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- Jan 22, 2004
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- 481
For me the .45 ACP is MUCH more fun and easier to shoot than the .40S&W caliber. I shoot it better, it does not aggrevate my arthritis as bad. I like the hi cap nines, but have more trust in the bigger diameter round.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Nostaliga
plus the fact that the .45 ACP is a low pressure round, that lends its-self
to us handloaders who work up loads that far out class factory ammo. I
find the .45 ACP much easier too shoot than a .40S&W shot from the
same type weapon~!
I guess thats why I own more weapons
chambered for the .45 ACP than any other caliber.
plus the fact that the .45 ACP is a low pressure round, that lends its-self
to us handloaders who work up loads that far out class factory ammo. I
find the .45 ACP much easier too shoot than a .40S&W shot from the
same type weapon~!
I guess thats why I own more weaponschambered for the .45 ACP than any other caliber.
10-Ring
Member
I guess I bought into the big bullet, big hole theory and have stuck to it Plus, it is just a smooth shooting round that it's tough not having it in the collection!
Plus, it is just a smooth shooting round that it's tough not having it in the collection! Mad Magyar
Member
A handgun bullet can miss alot as it travels through the torso. When you have, say a EFMJ in a .45, you can disrupt more tissue/organs than a smaller caliber. But, a well-known medical examiner put it nicely: "where you shoot the suspect and how many times you can shoot him" gives you maximum incapacitation.
MCgunner
Member
Well, okay, lets say that you don't believe in kinetic energy, just something they teach in school that has no relevance in the real world, you know, like gravity or something. You figure only the tissue that is directly struck by the bullet is going to be destroyed, anything else around it is hunky dory. Then, you take your two bullet diameters, .355 and .451, you have a difference in diameter of .096" which means that there is only .048" in radius difference. So, if you miss that heart with that .45, you still destroy some heart tissue if you nick it where the 9mm is going to miss by ALMOST 5 one hundredths of an inch?????
Whatever. The .45 ain't gonna make a poor shooter win, put it that way. If you can't hit COM, give up and hope for mercy. Don't really matter what you're shootin'.
surfinUSA
Member
I like the 45 a lot, but I like the 40 better. The 40s usually come in guns that are easier to conceal and carry more rounds than the 45 and I believe they are better round than the 9mm.
But in uniform or at the range the SIG 220 is great gun, just alot of fun to shoot. The real truth is I also like the 10mm and 9mm alot too. At the range they are all good.
But in uniform or at the range the SIG 220 is great gun, just alot of fun to shoot. The real truth is I also like the 10mm and 9mm alot too. At the range they are all good.
possum
Member
I carry .40cal, and only shoot 9mm at the range, never plan to use it as a personal defense gun. I would have a .45 caliber for the same reason, like a 1911 for example i would use it mostly at the range and have the gun for the simple reason to say i have one and to have a little fun with it every once in a while.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Handguns are marginally effective at best. Any of them. All of them. It doesn't matter if it starts with a .3 or .4 to measure it. Unless you're shooting a rifle cartridge in a Contender . . . Handguns are all marginally effective at best.
Get the largest caliber you can accurately and comfortably shoot, in a platform you can manage to make work and carry often (if that's your purpose) and practice with it. Nothing can make up for poor shot placement.
.45 ACP puts down steel plates more reliably, but I can shoot 9mm and 38 Super a bit more rapidly and accurately. More importantly, they're cheaper, even for a reloader, so I can practice more with them for the same $$$.
Get the largest caliber you can accurately and comfortably shoot, in a platform you can manage to make work and carry often (if that's your purpose) and practice with it. Nothing can make up for poor shot placement.
.45 ACP puts down steel plates more reliably, but I can shoot 9mm and 38 Super a bit more rapidly and accurately. More importantly, they're cheaper, even for a reloader, so I can practice more with them for the same $$$.
phantomak47
Member
"I'm not sure how to answer this so I'm gonna have you visualize something:
Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:
Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed
This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet
.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge
I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)
This was offered for illustration only. I am not a guru or expert in any sense."
LAPD stopped issuing the Glock 21 in 45 due to massive problems that Glock couldnt fix after 3 attempts.
Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:
Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed
This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet
.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge
I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)
This was offered for illustration only. I am not a guru or expert in any sense."
LAPD stopped issuing the Glock 21 in 45 due to massive problems that Glock couldnt fix after 3 attempts.
MCgunner
Member
That's not exactly an applicable analogy there. The ball bat is going to have a heck of a lot more kinetic energy than a dart. Not so with 9 vs .45, very similar. One's a little bit faster with a little less mass than the other. Not a big difference at all. For all practical purposes, caliber doesn't matter at this point, shot placement does.
Now then, you stand there and I'll throw this dart into your chest as hard as I can. Pull it out now and let me shoot you in the chest with this 9mm +P round and let's see which works better.
The ball bat is going to have a heck of a lot more kinetic energy than a dart. Not so with 9 vs .45, very similar. One's a little bit faster with a little less mass than the other. Not a big difference at all. For all practical purposes, caliber doesn't matter at this point, shot placement does.Now then, you stand there and I'll throw this dart into your chest as hard as I can. Pull it out now and let me shoot you in the chest with this 9mm +P round and let's see which works better.
Diamondback6
Member
Why do I favor .45ACP?
Because .50AE is too powerful and requires too big a gun to be practical for urban self-defense, and .50GI isn't quite ready for prime-time yet. Once the patent expires and more manufacturers offer loads, and it's more widely available (if it happens)...
'Til that great day, make mine .45ACP or .45 Super.
But this is only my $0.02...
Because .50AE is too powerful and requires too big a gun to be practical for urban self-defense, and .50GI isn't quite ready for prime-time yet. Once the patent expires and more manufacturers offer loads, and it's more widely available (if it happens)...
'Til that great day, make mine .45ACP or .45 Super.
But this is only my $0.02...
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