S_O_Laban
Member
We will overcome...
Why are gun owners such pessimists????
- Thread starter hillbilly
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It's hard to play someone elses game by their rules with the rules constantly changing.
Suppose the CCW laws was a ploy? We would be happy as we have achieved a victory, but ultimately the handgun gets banned. What good is the CCW then? Everything is not always as it seems and for every step the gun owners can take forward, they are pushed backward 2 steps.
You can be sure that someone is waiting for the AWB to sunset so an even more restrictive law (which is probably already drafted) to be brought up.
I don't consider it being pessimistic, but judging by past observations it's just being realistic. What have we really gained in the last 20-30 years? On one hand we have the CCW, but we have lost purchase rights, endured extra taxes, required to be licensed, faced confiscations, and many more to counter the few inroads we have made on what is suppose to be a protected right for us. We are watching this slowly erode in front of us with little power to stop it. Right now we can only hope to slow it down so a stratergy can be made to turn the situation around.
Suppose the CCW laws was a ploy? We would be happy as we have achieved a victory, but ultimately the handgun gets banned. What good is the CCW then? Everything is not always as it seems and for every step the gun owners can take forward, they are pushed backward 2 steps.
You can be sure that someone is waiting for the AWB to sunset so an even more restrictive law (which is probably already drafted) to be brought up.
I don't consider it being pessimistic, but judging by past observations it's just being realistic. What have we really gained in the last 20-30 years? On one hand we have the CCW, but we have lost purchase rights, endured extra taxes, required to be licensed, faced confiscations, and many more to counter the few inroads we have made on what is suppose to be a protected right for us. We are watching this slowly erode in front of us with little power to stop it. Right now we can only hope to slow it down so a stratergy can be made to turn the situation around.
The_Antibubba
Member
You are confusing pessimism...
...with realism. It isn't paranoia. They are out to get us-for our own good
The reason the antis never seem to get down is because they are liberals, and liberals don't live in the world that is. Liberals live in a world that ought to be, if everything was fair, and government was benign and honest, and human nature wasn't so selfish, where cause didn't lead to effect, where utopia can be legislated into existence.
Liberals, despite all the evidence that the purpose of government is to perpetuate government, that power corrupts, that socialism hasn't worked, still want bigger and more controlling governmental authority. I too would love to see a world without hunger, poverty, and illness, but, for reasons beyond the ken of of liberals to grasp, I don't see paying higher taxes as a step down that path.
...with realism. It isn't paranoia. They are out to get us-for our own good
The reason the antis never seem to get down is because they are liberals, and liberals don't live in the world that is. Liberals live in a world that ought to be, if everything was fair, and government was benign and honest, and human nature wasn't so selfish, where cause didn't lead to effect, where utopia can be legislated into existence. Liberals, despite all the evidence that the purpose of government is to perpetuate government, that power corrupts, that socialism hasn't worked, still want bigger and more controlling governmental authority. I too would love to see a world without hunger, poverty, and illness, but, for reasons beyond the ken of of liberals to grasp, I don't see paying higher taxes as a step down that path.
brookstexas
member
Hillbilly
Why, because we see our fellow gun owners not caring or doing anything but letting the 10% of owners do the work. I'll ask again as I did in the other thread-
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68662
what have you done in the last 2 weeks with this legislation pending? If the answer is not one call, letter, email or fax you have your answer to why many are pessimistic about the future ok RKBA.
BT
Why, because we see our fellow gun owners not caring or doing anything but letting the 10% of owners do the work. I'll ask again as I did in the other thread-
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68662
what have you done in the last 2 weeks with this legislation pending? If the answer is not one call, letter, email or fax you have your answer to why many are pessimistic about the future ok RKBA.
BT
CAPTAIN MIKE
Member
CORREIA IS RIGHT
While there are large battles yet to be fought we have made tremendous headway in the last ten years.
CCW in state after state after state is probably one of our best tools to achieve the level of 2A respect this country deserves. We must, however, not let the Antis alwasy set the terms used or the parameters of the debate.
Among other things, we can help shift the "language" used. For example:
* Assault Weapons should now be refered to as 'Sport Utility Rifles';
* Gun Control debates should be about 'The Human Right of Self-Defense';
* Self defense from criminals & terrorists should be part of our discussions with middle-of-the-road folks and with adversaries;
* We should publicly admonish liberal media as "biased & unprofessional".
If we fall into the mire of defeatism, it will become reality.
I am becoming active in the Bush / Cheney re-election campaign and I encourage you to do more than just gripe about things while holding your channel changer in your hand.
Let's work together !!
While there are large battles yet to be fought we have made tremendous headway in the last ten years.
CCW in state after state after state is probably one of our best tools to achieve the level of 2A respect this country deserves. We must, however, not let the Antis alwasy set the terms used or the parameters of the debate.
Among other things, we can help shift the "language" used. For example:
* Assault Weapons should now be refered to as 'Sport Utility Rifles';
* Gun Control debates should be about 'The Human Right of Self-Defense';
* Self defense from criminals & terrorists should be part of our discussions with middle-of-the-road folks and with adversaries;
* We should publicly admonish liberal media as "biased & unprofessional".
If we fall into the mire of defeatism, it will become reality.
I am becoming active in the Bush / Cheney re-election campaign and I encourage you to do more than just gripe about things while holding your channel changer in your hand.
Let's work together !!
Waitone
Member
Great question!
A few random thoughts in no particular order
--Complete ignorance (with a few exceptions) of the legislative process in DC.
--We tend to evaluate issues based on principal. Politicians don't. They look for the possible, to hell with principal. That is the nature of the political animal.
--Snap shot views of legislative action instead of a good overview of the process.
--No understanding of how DC actually works.
--Mistrust if not outright hatred for politicians.
--Pro-RKBA "leadership" perceived to sell us out and PROVIDING NO EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THE COMPROMISE WAS MADE. I honestly think the NRA could stop alot of whinning about selling out if it simply would explain why a compromise was made.
--Pro-RKBA's hav yet to appreciate the value of being on the offensive. We honestly believe in an infantile ideology of "live and let live." What a crock. To honest think that just because we leave them alone they will leave is alone is the thinking of a chump. It completely ignores the fact of predators stalking the halls of congress. You don't ignore predators particularly those who have tasted human freedom. They must be defeated and ultimately politically destroyed.
--We have not learned 1>to pick a fight, and 2>push back.
--Strong ideological allegiance to libertarian principals. (See comments about "live and let live).
--This week for the first time since I've been watching the second amendment wars, pro-RKBA types stood on principal and refused to compromise. The result was a huge win, contrary to what a lot of whinners think.
My position is quite simpleminded. We act and talk like losers because we are not on the offensive. We don't have th political blood lust anti-second amendment types have.
We get everything we deserve.
A few random thoughts in no particular order
--Complete ignorance (with a few exceptions) of the legislative process in DC.
--We tend to evaluate issues based on principal. Politicians don't. They look for the possible, to hell with principal. That is the nature of the political animal.
--Snap shot views of legislative action instead of a good overview of the process.
--No understanding of how DC actually works.
--Mistrust if not outright hatred for politicians.
--Pro-RKBA "leadership" perceived to sell us out and PROVIDING NO EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THE COMPROMISE WAS MADE. I honestly think the NRA could stop alot of whinning about selling out if it simply would explain why a compromise was made.
--Pro-RKBA's hav yet to appreciate the value of being on the offensive. We honestly believe in an infantile ideology of "live and let live." What a crock. To honest think that just because we leave them alone they will leave is alone is the thinking of a chump. It completely ignores the fact of predators stalking the halls of congress. You don't ignore predators particularly those who have tasted human freedom. They must be defeated and ultimately politically destroyed.
--We have not learned 1>to pick a fight, and 2>push back.
--Strong ideological allegiance to libertarian principals. (See comments about "live and let live).
--This week for the first time since I've been watching the second amendment wars, pro-RKBA types stood on principal and refused to compromise. The result was a huge win, contrary to what a lot of whinners think.
My position is quite simpleminded. We act and talk like losers because we are not on the offensive. We don't have th political blood lust anti-second amendment types have.
We get everything we deserve.
JaviFL
Member
Waitone, I agree with you. There seems to be quite a bit of ignorance of the political process amongst gun owners. People were up in arms before the whole process was completed!
Then, at the end of the process when the liability bill was scuttled, a lot of people were asking "So we can go out and buy hi-caps now, right?"
Then, at the end of the process when the liability bill was scuttled, a lot of people were asking "So we can go out and buy hi-caps now, right?"
Kaylee
Member
Bravo Correia and hillbilly!
Ya know what? I just saw the Senate tank a liability bill we really wanted in order to NOT renew the AWB, among other things.
They LISTENED to us, and they STOOD UP FOR US.
For "evil, black, child-killing-machine-guns meant to be spray-fired from the hip"
That wouldn't have happened ten years ago.
We're holding the line on the AWB, as Correia noted CCW is spreading like crazy, and the "culture war" at large has been moving our way since 2001 at least.
I'm optimistic.
-K
Ya know what? I just saw the Senate tank a liability bill we really wanted in order to NOT renew the AWB, among other things.
They LISTENED to us, and they STOOD UP FOR US.
For "evil, black, child-killing-machine-guns meant to be spray-fired from the hip"
That wouldn't have happened ten years ago.
We're holding the line on the AWB, as Correia noted CCW is spreading like crazy, and the "culture war" at large has been moving our way since 2001 at least.
I'm optimistic.
-K
grnzbra
Member
Because the antis are such optimists. We have everything to lose and nothing to gain, while they have nothing to lose and everything to gain, and if they don't get it this year, they'll be back next year.
BluesBear
member
Correct me if I am wrong. But wasn't that "rally" the NRA National Convention which had been planned YEARS in advance?
Kaylee
Member
Don't know about years, but definately some time in advance, yes. It was the Annual National Convention.. not exactly the kind of thing that could rescheduled/moved at the drop of a hat. As it was, the NRA toned its activities down a LOT out of respect for the touchy-feely types.
"Don't come here, Mr. Mayor? We're already here!"
[Tim Allen]Never give up, Never surrender![/Tim Allen]
"Don't come here, Mr. Mayor? We're already here!"
[Tim Allen]Never give up, Never surrender![/Tim Allen]
Carlos Cabeza
Member
Some men, when facing their darkest hour, rise up to deliver their most stellar performances. MOLON LABE !
williamcrane
Member
Drone said:
fix
Member
Prepare for the worst possible outcome, and you'll usually end up happy in the end.
Hillbilly --
I'd say it's a combination of experience and realism.
Why so negative toward pessimists? I think pessimists are generally happier people. After all, they're always either being proven right, or pleasantly surprised.
pax
I am not cynical, I have merely got experience -- which, however, is very much the same thing. -- Oscar Wilde
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -- George Bernard Shaw
I'd say it's a combination of experience and realism.
Why so negative toward pessimists? I think pessimists are generally happier people. After all, they're always either being proven right, or pleasantly surprised.
pax
I am not cynical, I have merely got experience -- which, however, is very much the same thing. -- Oscar Wilde
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. -- George Bernard Shaw
BluesBear
member
I am not a pessimist, I am a REALIST
8oz of water in a 16oz glass.
Optimist says, "It's ½ full."
Pessimist says, "It's ½ empty."
Realist says, "The glass is too big."
8oz of water in a 16oz glass.
Optimist says, "It's ½ full."
Pessimist says, "It's ½ empty."
Realist says, "The glass is too big."
T.Stahl
Member
I'm not a pessimist - I'm an experienced realist.
Diggler
Member
A Democrat says, "What are you doing with a 16oz glass? No one needs a 16 oz glass. I propose legislation to limit all glasses to a capacity of 10 oz. or less. For the children, of course..."
Of course, if there's 8 oz in a 16 oz glass, finish it before it gets too warm and order another beer!
brookstexas, let's not make this a game of "I am more activist than thou art" shall we?
Oh, to answer your question, during the S.1805 debate my senators got two phone calls apiece from me, plus two emails apiece, plus two handwritten letters apiece.
The two handwritten letters apiece were sent 7 days prior to the vote to make sure they got there in time.
But back to my main point.
If gun owners continue to be depressed and talk defeat and loss, they will continue to get defeat and loss.
And to connect it to the point you were making..........Why the heck should other gunowners care about the process when they hear their bretheren predicting loss and doom and gloom?
I would say that for every positive, pro-active mindset there is in the gun community, there are probably at least 10 negative, gloom and doom outlooks to overcome.
hillbilly
Oh, to answer your question, during the S.1805 debate my senators got two phone calls apiece from me, plus two emails apiece, plus two handwritten letters apiece.
The two handwritten letters apiece were sent 7 days prior to the vote to make sure they got there in time.
But back to my main point.
If gun owners continue to be depressed and talk defeat and loss, they will continue to get defeat and loss.
And to connect it to the point you were making..........Why the heck should other gunowners care about the process when they hear their bretheren predicting loss and doom and gloom?
I would say that for every positive, pro-active mindset there is in the gun community, there are probably at least 10 negative, gloom and doom outlooks to overcome.
hillbilly
Pax, I am down on pessimists because pessimists program themselves and all those around them for failure.
People who succeed, who accomplish, who overcome are not pessimists.
I am not saying be a pie-in-they sky optimist in general denial.
Realism is okay, as long as you are careful and honest, and not slipping into the classical bitching and whining about the hopelessness of it all.
Right now, our side needs some success, some accomplishment, and some overcoming.
There are a lot of folks who purport to be on our side who would still find the gloom and doom if everything from the AWB to the NFA of 1935 were suddenly repealed.
They'd say, "Repealed, huh? Well, that's what YOU think......it'll only make the antis more eager to come get us with even worse laws now."
And to be completely freakin' honest about it, I am tired of hearing that attitude from our side.
Heck, Chicago Cubs fans are more optomistic than many gun culture folks.
hillbilly
People who succeed, who accomplish, who overcome are not pessimists.
I am not saying be a pie-in-they sky optimist in general denial.
Realism is okay, as long as you are careful and honest, and not slipping into the classical bitching and whining about the hopelessness of it all.
Right now, our side needs some success, some accomplishment, and some overcoming.
There are a lot of folks who purport to be on our side who would still find the gloom and doom if everything from the AWB to the NFA of 1935 were suddenly repealed.
They'd say, "Repealed, huh? Well, that's what YOU think......it'll only make the antis more eager to come get us with even worse laws now."
And to be completely freakin' honest about it, I am tired of hearing that attitude from our side.
Heck, Chicago Cubs fans are more optomistic than many gun culture folks.
hillbilly
entropy
Member
"What I find interesting is that we have the guns, usually have more guns than them (grabbers and govt), and if a head to head battle took place, we would win. Its just too early to shoot the bastards."
Moparmike, Have you seen the weaponry and 'toys' the boys and girls in green have? Yes, perhaps we might have more guns, but how many of us have FA's with every optic/NVD imaginable, Thermal tracking devices, Blackhawks, Apaches, and AC-130's at our beck and call.
I for one hope it never comes to that.
Moparmike, Have you seen the weaponry and 'toys' the boys and girls in green have? Yes, perhaps we might have more guns, but how many of us have FA's with every optic/NVD imaginable, Thermal tracking devices, Blackhawks, Apaches, and AC-130's at our beck and call.
I for one hope it never comes to that.
Mark Tyson
Member
Hillbilly, for what it's worth, I agree with you 100% on the subject. The naysayers are doing more harm than good with their constant predictions of defeat.
Topgun
member
"Predictions" of defeat???
ILLUSTRATIONS OF IT!
The answer is because:
We have LOST .....every.....time. There is not one phase of gun ownership that is more liberal and unfettered than it was in the .....PAST.
We are going .....down.
We now count as victories any intrusive law that does NOT get passed.
We are .................. LOSING.
The CCW was explained above. Majic nailed it. Rile the mob for CCW and then take the guns.
The antis are EXPERT at end runs.
"Give me Liberty or something"........ Courtney Henry (Patrick's great great great great grandnephew.
The financial benefits of a disarmed populace to an elite power base are beyond calculation. THEY have a BUNCH at stake. WHEN they win, they will have ultimate, unchallenged power over the rest of society.
And....all.....it.....takes......is.....a.....few.....laws.
There are many things that can and could be done. HOWEVER......it was only a few years ago that the law was passed that could put me in jail for telling you what needs doing......NOW.
When they defined a "conspiracy" as TWO or more, we lost the game.
WACO, Ruby Ridge......need I say more about PRO GUN ACTIVISTS?
ILLUSTRATIONS OF IT!
The answer is because:
We have LOST .....every.....time. There is not one phase of gun ownership that is more liberal and unfettered than it was in the .....PAST.
We are going .....down.
We now count as victories any intrusive law that does NOT get passed.
We are .................. LOSING.
The CCW was explained above. Majic nailed it. Rile the mob for CCW and then take the guns.
The antis are EXPERT at end runs.
"Give me Liberty or something"........ Courtney Henry (Patrick's great great great great grandnephew.
The financial benefits of a disarmed populace to an elite power base are beyond calculation. THEY have a BUNCH at stake. WHEN they win, they will have ultimate, unchallenged power over the rest of society.
And....all.....it.....takes......is.....a.....few.....laws.
There are many things that can and could be done. HOWEVER......it was only a few years ago that the law was passed that could put me in jail for telling you what needs doing......NOW.
When they defined a "conspiracy" as TWO or more, we lost the game.
WACO, Ruby Ridge......need I say more about PRO GUN ACTIVISTS?
artherd
member
How come nobody cancled the LA Auto show which was held a week after that huge pileup?
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