Why Aren't Pump Action Rifles Popular?

[dagger dog]

Just a question on the same theme.

Why is it the pump shotgun is favored over the auto in reliability for self defense or tactical ? You don't see the LE community or the Armed Forces running autos.

Why do most hunters in states that require shotguns use pumps ?

As far as the bad triggers there ARE gunsmiths that can remedy that, along with the rattling forearms !

They ain't target guns but are plenty accurate for big game at SANE RANGES and for follow up shots only the autos are faster,even the levers and bolt guns suck hind tit to the pumps.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I've owned a few rem pumps and while I don't currently own one I was never dissatisfied with their accuracy. A fully free floated bbl and a floating bolt that locks into a bbl extension ar15 style tends to in my experience make for excellent shooters.

My 7615p shot well enough to place in the top 10 when I shot it in our local 300m high-power matches and would quite often produce sub 3/4" 5shot groups.

As for recoil its true that my 35whelen was a bit of an a$$ kjicker from the bench w hot 250 g loads. All other calibers are fine though.

The first 7600 police carbine in 308 I see is mine.

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[AK_Maine_iac]

I love my old Remington 760. It started out back in the early 70's as a 30.06. Wore out the barrel. Re-barreled it to 35Whelen in 1979. Still going strong. Would not trade it for anything.

 

[nipprdog]

nipprdog,what kind of groups do you get with that?

I've only shot it at 50yds with the ghost ring sights. The ghost ring sight is a little large, about the same as the large ring on a dual AR sight. So it's not the best for tight groups with my eyes. My best 5 shot group was about 1 1/2".

Haven't had a chance to slap a scope on it to see what it can do. Tried it once with an old scope, but it didn't work out since the scope puked.

I hope to get it out to the range next week with a different scope.

For actual results, check post #52.

 

[Speedgoat]

I've got a Winchester Model 62A, Love the little rifle, If Winchester made something real similar to it in 30-30 or a hangun caliber rifle I'd be mighty tempted.

 

[nipprdog]

The first 7600 police carbine in 308 I see is mine.

R.W., Do you know if that one still being produced?

I've heard yes, and no.

 

[R.W.Dale]

R.W., Do you know if that one still being produced?

I've heard yes, and no.

I'm in the same limbo as you

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[NM Mountainman]

About 45 years ago, I inherited a 760 in .30-06 cal. It would shoot 5 shot 1.5 MOA groups all day with factory 150 gr. or 180 gr ammo. It accounted for 2 nice mulie bucks before I sold it to get a bolt action .270.

In .30-06 cal, it takes about a half second or so to recover from the recoil of the previous shot and get back on target. I could easily pump another round into the chamber during that short time interval, so for aimed hunting shots, it was just as fast as a semi-auto of the same caliber.

It was an excellent hunting rifle, and I might have kept it if had been about 1/2 lb lighter.

 

[NYH1]

I have a new Remington 7600 carbine 30-06 spr. with a Leupold VX-II 2-7x33mm Scope. The rifle shoots 1 1/2" groups if I'm up to it (had back surgery not long ago so some times it's hard to shoot anything) and recoil isn't bad. It'll out shoot just about any slug gun which are required in a lot of places. It's my favorite all round rifle for 2 to 200 yard hunting. I think the o-ring that go's between the action bar and the tube under it came out of place. It when from not making a peep to making noise in a matter of minutes. I'll take it back to Ilion after the season and have them fix it.

 

[Maverick223]

I came pretty close to buying a 7600 in .280Rem. (50th Anniversary "Limited Edition") a while back, but ultimately decided not to roll the dice with Big Greens QC problems as of late. If I find a good used one at a fair price I'll consider it, but I think my decision to stay away from late model Remingtons (of any flavor) is a sound one.

 

[Clipper]

My wife has an old Remington 141 in .35rem I bought used for her. After Williams installed the front firesight and FP peep rear and installed a Pachmayer shotgun recoil pad at 13" LOP, I took it out to the 30 yard pistol range to ballpark the sights. That rifle shot one hole, and I don't mean a ragged one, but one very slightly oval hole! Oh, they're plenty accurate...

 

[hdbiker]

my ten year old Rem. 7600 in 30-06,will shoot 1 1/2 inch at 100 yds. all day long,doesen't rattle and is much faster than any bolt. biker

 

[Black Horse]

I owned a 7600/30.06 for years. Would shoot 1 1/2-2" groups. But the recoil on the thing kicked so that I really didn't enjoy it as I got a "little" older! So, I moved it and bought a 7mm-08 bolt gun and really enjoy the difference. That pump was fast, but my personal hunting styles have changed. Enjoy them if you like them. They have taken many deer and hogs for me.

 

[Maverick223]

I realize that we are primarily discussing centerfire rifles, most notably the Rem. 760 series, but I have to say that my Remington M-12 is one heck of a fun little rifle. It feeds cartridges that the autoloaders can only dream of (shorts, LRs, and longs...including Colibris and even Dynamit Nobel Flobert caps), and it's lightweight, streamlined, and well made to boot.

 

[oldpapps]

My view.... (always slanted, never correct)...

The pump has the faults of the auto loader and none of the benefits. Poor or non existing marketing. Over shadowed by other better (?) actions.

They are an acquired taste just like levers and bolts and single shots.

The correct answer is.... people are fickle and like what they have.

The looses, most inaccurate pump with a trigger pull resembling the bending of a willow twig, when given some loving care and attention may become a tight, firm, tack driver with an excellent trigger.

If you want one, get one (or two) and you can be happy. That's all that counts in the end.

Enjoy,

OSOK

 

[BBDartCA]

Here is a Hog I took a few weeks ago with a 1975 vintage 760 30-06 (with handloads). Shot was taken at about 100 yards, downhill on a 25% grade, feet sliding out from under me, pig was between two oaks, butt facing me trotting away. Only thing to aim at was his butt and neck. Aimed for the neck and bam, dead with not much of a kick. Zero meat damage. Not a hugely challenging shot. But on the same hunt a friend with a maxed out T/C with high dollar Nikon scope in 270 missed from 40 yards due to technical difficulties.

Shoot what you like but I love my 760's.

 

[nipprdog]

The pump has the faults of the auto loader and none of the benefits.

 

[Ranger30-06]

The pump has the faults of the auto loader and none of the benefits. Poor or non existing marketing. Over shadowed by other better (?) actions.

With all respect to your opinion here, I think comparing an autoloader to a pump is kind of like comparing two separate actions each with their own little niche. While yes, out of the box pumps tend to be sub par on what you would expect out of a big factory rifle, I think with work or by creating a whole new rifle they could be a well priced alternative to the autoloader market.

Pumps have a couple obvious advantages:

• The barrels are by default free floated and the locking mechanism is extremely strong.
• The receiver is extremely strong for its size, allowing for some big calibers.
• Pump guns are much less complex than most other rifles, the exception being bolt guns.
• Pump guns are LIGHT! A Remington 7615 is a LOT lighter than 90% of semi auto's there, and roughly the same size lengthwise.

If given the choice, I would take a pump gun set up something like this:

.300 Blackout or 6.8mm SPC
Mag well to take AR mags
16" threaded barrel with flash hider/muzzle break/suppressor
Collapsible pistol grip stock/synthetic forend
Ghost ring sights with an Aimpoint or Trijicon ACOG scope

That would weigh something around 6 lbs (maybe 7 loaded) yet pack more punch than an AR of the same weight. Pump guns can also be reloaded extremely quickly. No, they are not as fast as semi's, but they are very close and still faster than a bolt or lever gun.

 

[Quaamik]

I think that the reason they aren't more popular is because they don't do anything that other gun types don't do better.

Extreem accuracy? Bolt guns rule. A close second are semi autos built/modified and tuned for accuracy.

Light weight? Bolt or lever guns in big game cartidges, and it doesn't seem to matter in smaller cartridges.

Capacity? Limited for hunting the same as the other types, semi autos beat them for where capacity isn't restricted.

Follow up shots? semi autos rule the roost.

 

[oldpapps]

"nipprdog",

The pump action has mechanical stuff hanging around the barrel to transfer energy, by pumping the action, to open the action, eject the spent cartridge, load a fresh round and cock the weapon. This is done in many ways and differing orders on the various weapons.

The auto loader has mechanical stuff hanging around the barrel to transfer energy, gas or recoil, to open the action, eject the spent cartridge, load a fresh round and cock the weapon. This is done in many ways and differing orders on the various weapons.

All of this 'stuff' adds weight and disrupts the natural balance of the barrel (more stuff to free float).

The pump action requires the shooter to 'pump the action'.

The auto loader does it all for the shooter, allowing the shooter to concentrate on the target, sight picture, trigger pull, breathing.

I still like and have and have had other pump action weapons.

Enjoy,

OSOK

 

[oldpapps]

"Ranger30-06",

No argument from me.

OSOK

 

[R.W.Dale]

"nipprdog",

The pump action has mechanical stuff hanging around the barrel to transfer energy, by pumping the action, to open the action, eject the spent cartridge, load a fresh round and cock the weapon. This is done in many ways and differing orders on the various weapons.

The auto loader has mechanical stuff hanging around the barrel to transfer energy, gas or recoil, to open the action, eject the spent cartridge, load a fresh round and cock the weapon. This is done in many ways and differing orders on the various weapons.

All of this 'stuff' adds weight and disrupts the natural balance of the barrel (more stuff to free float).

The pump action requires the shooter to 'pump the action'.

The auto loader does it all for the shooter, allowing the shooter to concentrate on the target, sight picture, trigger pull, breathing.

I still like and have and have had other pump action weapons.

Enjoy,

OSOK

In the case of the Remington 7600 this is fundamentally incorrect.

The slide and action bars hang from a stub prodruding from the reciever below and never touches the bbl at all.

The bbl on a Remington pump is free floated enough to not only slide a dollar bill between it and the forend but an entire catalog too




This single and critical difference is why rem autoloaders shoot like crap and 7600's shoot as good or better than 700's

I find it eternally amusing that folks with no experience will bash pumps based purely on false assumptions while at the same time talk up the mythological virtues of the straight pull bolt action. Even though they're THE SAME action just operated w a different arm
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[sig220mw]

Have never owned a pump rifle. Only a pump shotgun a few years ago. A couple of friends have pump 270s and they love them and have success with them. It's hard to argue with success. As far as bolts being fast enough for follow up shots. I have learned to work the bolt automatically without thinking about it after the first shot and consequently do it quite quickly.

 

[FreddyKruger]

Pumps are sorta popular in Australia only due to the fact that we cant own semis.

but be buggered if im gunna pay $1600 for a 7615. Then there the issue of 10+ mag capacities not being let thru customs because, and i quote, "because they can also be used in semi autos"...

how many americans would be pissed off paying $100 for a 10 round ar15 mag? $300 for a 30 rounder?

our laws are also why a chinese made 1887 lever action shotgun is popular too.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I don't worry about followup shots myself. I concentrate on the FIRST shot. My primary deer rifle is a TC Pro hunter in 7mm.08. I own and operate many bolts and levers but my all time favorite is my TC. Of all the pump actions I have owned (6 all together) I only had 1 that would get 2moa accuracy. And it took me 50 (yes literally 50) attempts with loads to find one that would even get THAT much! Now, to the fellas saying that "minute of pie plate" is all you need, you may wish to remember one thing. You don't have sandbags and benches out there deer hunting so if the BEST accuracy you can get off of a sandbag is within that 9 inch pie plate you may need to rethink your choice of rifle. No way will you be accurate off hand in the field if you can't hold at least 1.5 off a bench. Any poor accuracy is multiplied damn near exponentially between the bench and off hand shots.

And to those saying you can tune them up so they aren't noisy, uhhhhhh why in the hell would I want to pay the price Remington asks for these noisy things then have to go out and spend even MORE of my hard earned dollars to fix something that would be easily done at the factory in the first place? If I want to rebuild a rifle, I'll go buy me a K98 (as I have done MANY times) and build me a rifle that is well under 1moa, quiet, and has enough weight so that it doesn't try to remove my damn shoulder!

Glad a few of you like your pumps and have been successful with them. For some people they are just fine and dandy. For a perfectionist, they are simply no where near the function that we prefer.