Why conservatives are suckers for gun control

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Today the Wisconsin State Senate passed Senate Bill 403 - the Personal Protection Act (PPA) - by a 23-9 vote.

The bad news is that at least half a dozen gun control provisions - all given
a silent wink and a nod by the institutional gun lobby - passed along with the
bill. Now, the bill goes to the State Assembly.

In light of the passage of gun control today, you should be asking yourself, "Was today's vote a victory, or defeat, for gun owners"?

You should have the answer to that question by the time you get done
reading, "Why conservatives are suckers for gun control."

Enjoy.


----------------------------
Why conservatives are suckers for gun control

By

Corey Graff


If a mugger shoved a gun in your ribs and demanded your wallet, but then handed you back your credit cards, your health insurance cards and your wallet-sized photos of your children - keeping only the cash - has a compromise taken place?

According to most conservative activists, apparently it would be. According to the proper definition of "compromise," however, it is really nothing more than stealing.

Most right-wing activists believe they must choose between standing on principle alone and compromising to be practical. This is a fatal error.

Nearly all gun control can trace its origin back to some point in which a
self-styled "pro-gun" organization, "pro-gun" lobbyist or even "pro-gun"
legislator accepted some so-called compromise. True, anti-gun liberals might be pushing gun control, but conservatives are their own worst enemy when they accept it.

But first some definition: "com-pro-mise 1. A settlement of differences by
mutual concessions," according to Webster's Dictionary. In other words,
compromise means each side brings something to the table to give up.

"This is not how the Leftists 'compromise.'" Wrote now-retired California State
Senator and founder of Gun Owners of America, H.L. Richardson, in his book,
Confrontational Politics. "They will ask for 100 percent, then give in a little
on their outlandish demands when opposition becomes formidable. They may call it a compromise but what are they giving up? Absolutely nothing!...Are they relinquishing control or perhaps abandoning some other established bureaucracy in order to negotiate in good faith? Never. They relinquish nothing while insisting we compromise away a piece of our freedom."

The left takes advantage of conservatives' dislike of confrontation, by
redefining compromise to bully us around. It works like this: Anti-gunners push
a nightmare gun control bill, a bill so bad they know it will never pass into
law. Pro-gunners throw up the red flags and begin to build a defense. The left
lets pro-gun opposition grow. The right begins to panic. Once opposition
reaches liberals' pre-determined level, they back off and offer a more
"reasonable" anti-gun bill, which they repackage and call a compromise.
Conservatives - who are uncomfortable with the orchestrated confrontation from the start - let out a big sigh and jump on the version that appears less threatening.

But wait a minute. The liberals have just advanced gun control - without giving up anything! It was a net loss for gun owners, and a net gain for the gun grabbers. In fact, there was no compromise anywhere in this equation. Did the left offer to give up just one of those over 20,000 gun control laws currently on the books? Of course not. Did the mugger offer the victim his own car or his own watch in trade as a compromise? No, he just took the cash.

This also holds when pro-gunners try to push a pro-gun bill into law.
Republicans will concede gun control provisions in their own pro-gun bill to
try to appease the left into voting for the bill. But - the left never gives up
any ground, and expecting this appeasment strategy to work is simply
irresponsible and foolish.

Take Wisconsin's Personal Protection Act (PPA), for example. Before the bill was even introduced, it was loaded down with half a dozen anti-gun provisions (by Republican "conservatives"), any one of which concessions would normally draw fire from gun owners. We're told these concessions will help us pass concealed carry; we're told they are reasonable compromises.

But let's back up. In early 1870, your right to bear arms was stolen from you -
a net loss. Now, gun control apologists are crawling out of the woodwork, a
list that includes Republican legislators, NRA, Wisconsin Concealed Carry
Association, and others. They claim gun owners must accept a central registry list of gun owners, a criminal background check, an excessive fee, an
application (waiting) period, an expanded NICS check on handgun purchases, the creation of no-carry-allowed areas, a rogue-cop amendment, and possibly even fingerprinting of gun owners - that's at least 7 gains for gun control.

But what exactly are the anti-gunners giving up here? What are they bringing to the table? If you answered "nothing," - or zero - congratulations - you're no longer a gullible victim of liberal tactics.

Some will object here, pointing out that what anti-gunners are conceding is
their agreeing to support concealed carry contigent upon these anti-gun
provisions. While that is a one-step loss for anti-gunners, they still achieve
an overall net gain of 6 additional gun controls - plus they've brought nothing
new to the table, and they are still in the black. On gun owners side, we're
still in the red and gain one step, while losing 7 steps - for an overall net
loss of -6.

This is why conservatives never get back to their original starting point, and
why we're buried in over our heads in gun control. If you do the math, the
institutional gun lobby's willingness to compromise simply doesn't add up for
gun rights. Sure, it's incrementalism alright - in the wrong direction.

Our course of action as conservatives, then, must be to force anti-gunners to
give up ground, so they incur devastating net losses on their side. Ours is not
an all-or-nothing position, it is a gain-more than-you-lose position.
Incrementalism works; only if gun owners stop selling more farm than they buy.

Conservatives must learn that when liberals - and liberal Republicans - use the
term "compromise," there is rarely a true compromise taking place. Therefore,
we cannot even begin to weigh any gains against any losses - we're only ever
asked to accept more net losses. It's always a matter of anti-gunners gaining
either alot or a little - but it's for sure gun owners always losing: alot or a
little.

Why are conservatives suckers for gun control? Because they give up in the name of compromise when no compromise is on the table. And they hand their wallet over - when the mugger's gun is loaded with harmless blanks.

Corey Graff is the Executive Director of Wisconsin Gun Owners, Inc. - Wisconsin's only no-compromise gun rights organization. For more info about WGO, visit http://www.wisconsingunowners.org
 
"Alaska" (Vermont Style) Carry

Your purported grail.

Incrementally achieved in a decade from a start similar to the WI bill.

Show me YOUR comparable success in a decade.

Until then? Go back to your hole and save your lies and misrepresentations for the credulous and mouth-breathers.

Oh. I, of course, expect you to not take advantage of what the smart gunowners of Wisconsin achieved today. If you do, you can add hypocritical to your list of flaws.
 
23-9? Jeeze how many Senators does WI have? That seems awfully small...

That would make 32, If WI has 50 senators, then 18 didn't vote???

Sounds to me like some people are being underrepresented.
 
Corey... you can NOT build a pyramid by placing the capstone, then filling in the structure. It doesn't work, and can't work! No way, no how...

But feel free to keep spouting... spewing your BS here means you have less time to cause trouble for those actually DOING something to get CCW in Wisconsin...
 
Corey, I respectfully submit that your absolutist position does little, if anything, to accomplish meaningful progress in the RKBA fight. You want it all, and you want it right now. Unfortunately, the rest of society (well, at least 95% of it) doesn't work that way. They have to take baby steps... allow something, see if it works (or produces bad results), take another step, and so on. To insist on "all or nothing" is a virtual guarantee that you'll get nothing.

So, I think the Wisconsin bill is a good step. It's been a long time coming, and has absorbed the energies of many good people for a very long time to get us there. If we can get this one through (and yes, I say "we", even though I don't live in Wisconsin, because we're all in the RKBA battle together), then in a few years time, we can argue for reducing the limitations in the statute, because of positive evidence that it has not produced a bloodbath in the streets. After a few more years, the same tactic can be applied. Alaska has been cited as an example of progressive removal of restrictions on CCW, and I think it's a good one.

I'm afraid I classify your approach with that of Angel Shamaya and the KABA crowd - unless others agree with your "all-or-nothing" approach, they're somehow irredeemably flawed and corrupted, fit only to be cast into outer darkness. Another term for this approach is "Kill them all - let God sort them out!" I'm afraid that positions such as yours are counter-productive, and serve only to convince the sheeple that gun-owners are indeed as radical and dangerous as the anti-RKBA forces are trying to paint them.

There's an old proverb about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar... and another about "softlee, softlee, catchee monkee". Incremental improvements to the RKBA are nothing to be sneezed at, and those who've worked so long and hard for this major achievement have my respect and admiration for their efforts. Now, let's get behind them and see whether we can't get this legislation both passed and un-vetoed, and put into effect!
 
Executive Director said:
Today the Wisconsin State Senate passed Senate Bill 403 - the Personal Protection Act (PPA) - by a 23-9 vote.

Which I am happy about. Frankly, I am glad you're upset about it, because you are clearly not on my side.

"Was today's vote a victory, or defeat, for gun owners"?

Simply one step on the path to victory.

The left takes advantage of conservatives' dislike of confrontation,

I believe it has nothing to do with dislike or fear of confrontation. It has everything to do with passing some sort of CCW legislation in the first place, a task in itself when you consider that Madison and Milwaukee are both ultra-liberal cities.


The liberals have just advanced gun control - without giving up anything!

I'd disagree with you there.

Take Wisconsin's Personal Protection Act (PPA), for example. Before the bill was even introduced, it was loaded down with half a dozen anti-gun provisions (by Republican "conservatives"), any one of which concessions would normally draw fire from gun owners. We're told these concessions will help us pass concealed carry; we're told they are reasonable compromises.

Though I don't agree with some of the compromises, if they're necessary to get the bill passed, I don't have a problem with their insertion. Better some CCW than none at all, a point which you STILL HAVE FAILED TO ADDRESS.

Now, gun control apologists are crawling out of the woodwork, a
list that includes Republican legislators, NRA, Wisconsin Concealed Carry
Association, and others. They claim gun owners must accept a central registry list of gun owners,

Another play on words. I noticed your website just LOVES to use the term "gun owner" when discussing this list. Yet truthfully, the list will be for permit holders, not all gun owners, as you seem to insinuate. All permit holders may be gun owners, but NOT all gun owners will be permit holders.

an excessive fee,

A few bucks I'll gladly spend to protect myself in the event that we have an ability to CCW.

a rogue-cop amendment,

You still skirt the provision for punishment of LEOs who abuse the system, WRITTEN BY LEOs THEMSELVES.

Some will object here, pointing out that what anti-gunners are conceding is their agreeing to support concealed carry contigent upon these anti-gun provisions. While that is a one-step loss for anti-gunners, they still achieve an overall net gain of 6 additional gun controls - plus they've brought nothing new to the table, and they are still in the black. On gun owners side, we're still in the red and gain one step, while losing 7 steps - for an overall net loss of -6.

No, we're not in the red. We've went from NO CCW to lawful CCW. A step that IS extremely significant, compared to your 7 "significant"(depending on your opinion) steps.

Our course of action as conservatives, then, must be to force anti-gunners to give up ground, so they incur devastating net losses on their side.

Not feasible or even possible at this point. And with you and your organization acting like jackasses, it'll be a miracle we even get CCW, ever.

Ours is not an all-or-nothing position, it is a gain-more than-you-lose position.

Sure sounds like an "all or nothing" proposition. How can going from no CCW, to lawfully allowed CCW, and lose more than you gain? NONE of your arguments support your position, and I'd doubt one member on this board will ever agree with you, myself included.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Sure sounds like an "all or nothing" proposition. How can going from no CCW, to lawfully allowed CCW, and lose more than you gain? NONE of your arguments support your position, and I'd doubt one member on this board will ever agree with you, myself included.

Wow, only your 7th post? Nice job, and +1. Welcome to The High Road.

Anybody but me starting to regret that Oleg invited Executive Director to come here?? I, know, I know... Know thine enemy...
 
Actually, I do agree with him, somewhat.
Getting permision to excercise my inalienable right does not constitute what I would call "compromise". They are, however; giving something up- What the article fails to mention is that at one point carrying was not only lawful, but expected. It was taken, now it's given back.
The artice suggests firearm advocates are weak, which I completely disagree with. What might be more appropriate is to say that the advocates only paint within given lines set by the anti-gunners, rather than paining their own boarders. Broader strokes, folks.. broader strokes.

Nice job WI. I wish you all the best.

B-
 
If a mugger shoved a gun in your ribs and demanded your wallet, but then handed you back your credit cards, your health insurance cards and your wallet-sized photos of your children - keeping only the cash - has a compromise taken place?

If a wannabe mugger shoves a gun in my ribs, I'm going to appear to drop my wallet on the ground, clear leather, and inflict an attitude change upon him. I live in Colorado, which recognizes my right to keep and bear arms, although it infringes that right, as well. If the hypothetical mugger lives, he can't sue me in Colorado, nor can his heirs and/or assigns if he doesn't live.

Wisconsin's Personal Protection Act appears to be nearly as messy as Ohio's shall issue and CCW laws—but it's somewhat better than nothing, which is all the good people of Wisconsin have today.

All that said™, I've moved a long, long way toward Second Amendment absolutism during the past year or so. I believe instead of resting on our CCW laurels, we need to push on toward Vermont-style carry in every CCW state. It might have been too soon to go the full distance in Wisconsin, but it's sure not too soon in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, Utah, and other leading edge states.

Please stick around, Executive Director. Some of us need to be prodded out of complacency—or perhaps enticed, actually.
 
Standing Wolf said:
Please stick around, Executive Director. Some of us need to be prodded out of complacency—or perhaps enticed, actually.


I'd agree with you if E.D. actually starts participating in the debates, instead of simply posting his propaganda. There are many questions that have been posed to him by several THR members, and I don't remember even one being answered directly.

I'm sure we'd all love Vermont style carry, but he is doing harm to the incremental effort that is actually likely to succeed in WI in spite of him.

btw... 18,000+ posts? :what: :cool:
 
So-called "Executive Director"

To my knowledge, the so-called "Executive Director" has no legislative allies, and no legislative accomplishments under her belt.

Missouri had a group like the one represented by "Executive Director". The group in Missouri which managed to foil right-to-carry legislation for several years by demanding Alaska style legislation. Missouri eventually managed to pass a right-to-carry law in spite of that group.

Voleg deserves a good whacking for inviting this guy to come pollute this news forum.
 
All that said™, I've moved a long, long way toward Second Amendment absolutism during the past year or so. I believe instead of resting on our CCW laurels, we need to push on toward Vermont-style carry in every CCW state. It might have been too soon to go the full distance in Wisconsin, but it's sure not too soon in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona, Utah, and other leading edge states.

Standing,

Under his preferred program, no state that has gotten shall-issue of any kind since Florida would even be in a position to "go the full distance".

We'd be sitting around with the same bad situation, or worse, than we had in the 70's and 60's and on back to the late 1800's when most of these laws came about.

This guy hasn't produced any shred of success, don't give him any credit for anything until he does. The credit needs to go to the folks who (in the opposite of complacency) kicked and screamed and wheedled and tricked their legislatures into letting the CCW camel's nose into the tent and started the ball rolling toward the end goal, real 2nd Amendment living.
 
44Brent said:
demanding Alaska style legislation

Which is an ironic example, because even Alaska didn't get Alaska-style carry all in one swoop. Like most things in real life, Alaska got where they are by working step by step toward an ultimate goal.

If people like Executive Director were in charge, Alaska never would have taken the first step because it was a "compromise" and a "limited" right to carry.
 
Corey,

I lived in Milwaukee, and carried illegally every day for 3 years.
I resented it. I eventually moved to free America.

If you truly believe that after 130 years of banning concealed carry, Wisconsin will go directly to unrestained "Vermont carry", you are either incredibly naive, or wilfully obtuse.

Is there even one Wisconsin legislator who has sponsored a bill which allows "Vermont carry"? I rather doubt it.

While you stand there stamping your feet, and holding your breath, others are doing the work of lobbying politicians to get what is actually obtainable.


--Travis--
 
Just as many of us rail against Progessives because of their Utopian, unrealistic view of the world, there is no absolute solution to the re-establishment of RKBA where it is most egregiously infringed.

Those critical of this law are living in the world of "woulda, coulda, shoulda" where those that got it passed are living in the world of "is".

Those restrictions, though distasteful and every bit an infringement of RKBA as the denial of CCW, are easy targets for reversal. Once the hoopla has died down and both sides have claimed victory, it will be time for the citizens of Wisconsin to chip away at the tacked on amendments.

Two steps forward and one step back is still a step in the right direction.
 
Each step, regardless of how small, is key. I don't see anything there that I couldn't live with if I lived in Wisconsin. Nadda. I see it as a step, and nothing more.

Personally, I see this kind of propaganda as hurtful to the RKBA movement as the BS that was spewed about Florida's recent law which no longer requires them to retreat first. People were talking about how Florida would turn into the wild west with shootouts all the time. I knew it was BS when I heard it, because GA has, what looks to me at least, the exact same law. I live in a town which seems to be acting like Dodge City half the time, and there aren't "gun fights in the streets". Just as there will be MORE progress in these states that are now starting to allow CCW. It was indeed a compromise, because without those provisions, it may not have passed at all. So which is better? No CCW, or "sticking to your guns" and getting squat. It's up to you.

Tom
 
The CCW revolution was itself a form of compromise, there's no doubt about that. But until someone appoints me the Lord Protector of the US I'm afraid compromise is something we have to live with.
 
Executive Director said:
Why are conservatives suckers for gun control? Because they give up in the name of compromise when no compromise is on the table....

One person's wrong opinion does not a fact make.
 
In my experience, I have found that those with the "all or nothing" type outlook are not really that interested in increasing gun rights.

They are, at least in my experience with them, typically a lot more interested in creating their own little "cool kids" club.

That way all, all the pure, hardcore, with-it cool, kids can sit around and feel superior to all the worthless, unserious, not-with-it sellouts like the NRA, etc.

It's about fellowship with other, more-pure-than-the-driven snow no-compromisers, than doing anything for actual gun rights.

hillbilly
 
I guess I'm a near-absolutist, like Standing Wolf.

This guy didn't attack you. he's just adding to the pro-gun discussion. He's showing the flaws of compromising rights without stabbing you in the back. Lighten up. You're being as critical as he is.
 
hillbilly said:
In my experience, I have found that those with the "all or nothing" type outlook are not really that interested in increasing gun rights.

They are, at least in my experience with them, typically a lot more interested in creating their own little "cool kids" club.

That way all, all the pure, hardcore, with-it cool, kids can sit around and feel superior to all the worthless, unserious, not-with-it sellouts like the NRA, etc.

It's about fellowship with other, more-pure-than-the-driven snow no-compromisers, than doing anything for actual gun rights.

hillbilly

Right, that is why we write legislators, campaign, debate, and try to show people why our view is correct. Because we are all a bunch of elitist snobs. We don't really care about the RKBA, we just want a little click of people who won't offend our effete sensibilities.

The OP was dead on regarding false compromises. We are losing the compromise battle, look at prescription drugs. Look at federal gun laws. Look at spending. We are caving to the left all the time, and only ocaisionally do we push back. it is supposed to be two steps forward, one step back. Not the other way around.

I don't know details about Wisconsin, so if you yanks are happy, power to you. Hope you can pull an Alaska on us all. Here in TN that just isn't happening. We are still saddled with restrictions upon restrictions.
 
SomeKid said:
We are still saddled with restrictions upon restrictions.
So - out of curiosity ...

Would you be happier in TN if you couldn't CCW at all while you fought for full VA style of non-permitting?
-
 
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