Why did we move away from Top Break Revolvers?

[mcb]

As I see it. The problem is a marketing/market problem.

We could make a replicas of a Webly or S&W double action top break revolver using modern common steel alloys. They would last a very long time with the original cartridges. Without going into some of the super alloy we could probably also step them up to 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP and still have reason useful life using some of the better steel we have now. But is there enough demand for someone to tool up for this? The designs are not friendly to modern CNC machining centers and would require a fair bit of setup, tooling and fixture to be made from scratch. Not difficult but not cheap either when you take the engineering/program times into account.

If we made some moderate design changes and put some of the super alloys into play we could definitely make these revolver last with modern moderate cartridges like 9mm 40S&W and 45 ACP maybe even 357 Mag. But to do so in a manner that would make it relatively affordable we would probably have to go to two piece barrels and separate grip frames and that would likely hurt their marketability being too larger of a departure from the originals for those that want an original but not still not sufficiently improved performance wise for those that want a hard working usable top break.

We could start from the ground up with a completely new design and incorporate both modern metals (and super alloys were required) along with modern design ideas for wear tolerance and easy part replacement. I have no doubt we could step up the performance to many of the big bore revolver cartridges. But at this point you will never sell enough of them to pay for the very substantial R&D it would take to bring these revolvers to the market. And due to the two piece frame required for a top break when compared to modern closed frame in the end you will either be weaker than comparable modern revolvers for similar weight, heavier for similar strength, or stupid expensive for similar strength and weight.

Light, strong, cheap, you only get to pick two!

Personally I would be happiest with a modern replica of a Webley Mark VI in the original 455 Webley made from modern steel to the original prints. We would need some replica Prideaux speed loaders to, no doubt. Back in 2015 or 16 Webley and Scott had entertain the idea of doing just that. The Webley and Scott company is still in business mostly make shotguns and air rifles. But at Shot-Show that year they has stated that if they got 1000 people to put 100 dollars down they would make a run of Mark VI from the original prints. I even signed up but before I could give them my money the project seemed to fizzle. I was very bummed.

 

[FlSwampRat]

As I see it. The problem is a marketing/market problem.

We could make a replicas of a Webley or S&W double action top break revolver using modern common steel alloys. They would last a very long time with the original cartridges. Without going into some of the super alloy we could probably also step them up to 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP and still have reason useful life using some of the better steel we have now. But is there enough demand for someone to tool up for this? The designs are not friendly to modern CNC machining centers and would require a fair bit of setup, tooling and fixture to be made from scratch. Not difficult but not cheap either when you take the engineering/program times into account.

If we made some moderate design changes and put some of the super alloys into play we could definitely make these revolver last with modern moderate cartridges like 9mm 40S&W and 45 ACP maybe even 357 Mag. But to do so in a manner that would make it relatively affordable we would probably have to go to two piece barrels and separate grip frames and that would likely hurt their marketability being too larger of a departure from the originals for those that want an original but not still not sufficiently improved performance wise for those that want a hard working usable top break.

We could start from the ground up with a completely new design and incorporate both modern metals (and super alloys were required) along with modern design ideas for wear tolerance and easy part replacement. I have no doubt we could step up the performance to many of the big bore revolver cartridges. But at this point you will never sell enough of them to pay for the very substantial R&D it would take to bring these revolvers to the market. And due to the two piece frame required for a top break when compared to modern closed frame in the end you will either be weaker than comparable modern revolvers for similar weight, heavier for similar strength, or stupid expensive for similar strength and weight.

My warm spot in my heart for the Webley comes, as I said, from my love of the Sherlock Holmes books and stories by Conan Doyle. I imagine that Dr. Watson brought home his Webley service sidearm from Afghanistan, it's never clearly said. If that is the case, it was probably a top break ,455 most likely. It's simply that nostalgia that makes it interesting and attractive to me. I imagine the only attraction for most people, actually, much as the attraction to SAA's and lever rifles.
Cowboy action shooting has probably been the driving force behind most purchases of those guns in the recent past, I would hazard. If not actually participating in such, at least the link between owning Peacemaker or Winchester clones probably stems from television shows for us older guys or movies for the younger crowd. Then again cable has resurrected many of the black and white horse operas I grew up watching on the tube. Wire Paladin!

Light, strong, cheap, you only get to pick two!

A jeweler friend of mine has a variant of that with the choices being good fast and cheap.

 

[mcb]

My warm spot in my heart for the Webley comes, as I said, from my love of the Sherlock Holmes books and stories by Conan Doyle. I imagine that Dr. Watson brought home his Webley service sidearm from Afghanistan, it's never clearly said. If that is the case, it was probably a top break ,455 most likely. It's simply that nostalgia that makes it interesting and attractive to me. I imagine the only attraction for most people, actually, much as the attraction to SAA's and lever rifles.
Cowboy action shooting has probably been the driving force behind most purchases of those guns in the recent past, I would hazard. If not actually participating in such, at least the link between owning Peacemaker or Winchester clones probably stems from television shows for us older guys or movies for the younger crowd. Then again cable has resurrected many of the black and white horse operas I grew up watching on the tube. Wire Paladin!

A jeweler friend of mine has a variant of that with the choices being good fast and cheap.

I am a fan of Sherlock Holmes too but for some reason it always made me think about British Bulldog revolvers. Right behind wanting a Mark VI in 455 Webley is the desire to own a Bulldog (Webley or otherwise) in 450 Adams or similar. Unlike my women, I like my pistol cartridges short and fat.

 

[FlSwampRat]

I am a fan of Sherlock Holmes too but for some reason it always made me think about British Bulldog revolvers. Right behind wanting a Mark VI in 455 Webley is the desire to own a Bulldog (Webley or otherwise) in 450 Adams or similar. Unlike my women, I like my pistol cartridges short and fat.

I pictured Homes with the Bulldog and Watson with the Webley.
As we have the IMFDB we need an IBFDB (Internet Book Firearm DataBase)

 

[BobWright]

..............................................................

Pretty much the same solution Bob Wright mentioned above, but instead of building up the metal by brazing some more on, my friend solved the problem in a different way.

BIG DIFFERENCE! Your problem was solved by a gunsmith. We used a Gomer Pyle auto mechanic!

Bob Wright

 

[whm1974]

You do know that 9mm and 357 Mag operate around the same PSI right?, besides I would take 357 Mag in a break top over 9mm hands down, in fact not too long ago someone posted a link to a modern breaktop in 357 Mag.

You need to check your sources for both 9mm and .357 Magnum. Plus the only top break revolver I know of that you can buy in .347 Mag is the Anderson Wheeler for ~$10,000.

 

[CraigC]

You need to check your sources for both 9mm and .357 Magnum.

Both 35,000psi.

 

[whughett]

You guys talking about Lucas Electrics made me nostalgic for my long gone British motorcycles (Triumph & BSA). Then after a little further thought...I got over it. (LOL)

Dave

Off, way off topic. The rice burner vertical twins like the SX650 were a much better clone of the Triumph.

 

[whm1974]

Both 35,000psi.

By God you are right... However I will bet money that the .357 Magnum is capable of much more then what the 9mm is.
http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

 

[Kleanbore]

You do know that 9mm and 357 Mag operate around the same PSI right?

The pressure curve is not the limiting factor in frame strength.

 

[whm1974]

The pressure curve is not the limiting factor in frame strength.

Pressure Curve along also doesn't tell you anything about performance in the field.

 

[CraigC]

Nothing "alone" tells us about performance in the field. Despite the industry's reliance on energy as a metric, there are no simple answers to be had, except in marketing.

Of course the .357 is more capable. It has greater case capacity and can utilize slow burning powders that the 9mm cannot.

 

[mcb]

Pressure Curve along also doesn't tell you anything about performance in the field.

Actually if you give me the full pressure vs time curve, bullet caliber and weight I can tell you exactly how much kinetic-energy/ momentum the bullet will have. At its core that is internal ballistics. The tough part is predicting that pressure vs time curve given bullet caliber and weight and a mass of a given propellant. Once you have the pressure vs time curve the rest is easy.

 

[JohnKSa]

Draw the load paths. The stresses are nowhere near comparable, due to the different geometry.

Without getting into the idea of going to an inverted design like the Mateba or the Rhino which would change things considerably, I would think, I'd be interested to see the numbers comparing the stresses on something like a 600 Nitro Express Double Rifle locking system on the locking system/frame for something like a 9mm Top Break. Materials, statics and dynamics are not really my thing, unfortunately.

 

[Monac]

You do know that 9mm and 357 Mag operate around the same PSI right?....

I, for one, did NOT know that, silvermane_1. Thanks for pointing it out. I learned something today!

 

[Monac]

As I see it. The problem is a marketing/market problem.

We could make a replicas of a Webly or S&W double action top break revolver using modern common steel alloys. They would last a very long time with the original cartridges. Without going into some of the super alloy we could probably also step them up to 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP and still have reason useful life using some of the better steel we have now. But is there enough demand for someone to tool up for this? The designs are not friendly to modern CNC machining centers and would require a fair bit of setup, tooling and fixture to be made from scratch. Not difficult but not cheap either when you take the engineering/program times into account.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, mcb. I think the production of the Schofield replicas shows that modern day production of top break revolvers in some calibers is possible. But it would not be possible for ssome really powerful (and popular) revolver cartridges. That would limit sales. The Schofield replicas have been around for at least 20 years now, and still are priced at $1,000+. A new DA top break in 45 ACP or 455 Webley might be double that, and how many could be sold at that price? It's not that the guns (in non-44 or 357 magnum calibers) could not be made, it's that no one sees a way to make a profit doing it.

I suppose the only reason H&R could profitably make a small frame top break 22 until the 1990's was that the tooling had all been paid for decades before. And could any make it now at a price at which it would sell well enough to recover the cost of new tooling? I guess the answer is no, until someone with the smarts Bill Ruger had comes along and wants to do it. (I am thinking of the SIngle Six here, not the Standard Model automatic.)

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, mcb. I think the production of the Schofield replicas shows that modern day production of top break revolvers in some calibers is possible. But it would not be possible for ssome really powerful (and popular) revolver cartridges. That would limit sales. The Schofield replicas have been around for at least 20 years now, and still are priced at $1,000+.

You are correct.

It is all a matter of supply and demand.

First, let me comment on something that somebody mentioned earlier:

"The designs are not friendly to modern CNC machining centers and would require a fair bit of setup, tooling and fixture to be made from scratch."

As a CNC programmer and machinist in a previous life, I can tell you that is not really true. Many, many parts need special fixturing to make the parts. This would be no different with a Top Break design than any other design.

Smith and Wesson still hammer forges their frames (at least they were still doing so when I visited the factory a bunch of years ago). After the forgings cool down they are brought to final shape in multiple steps on CNC equipment. I don't know what Colt is doing these days, but Uberti still hammer forges their Colt replica frames, then also brings them to final shape with multiple CNC set ups. I don't know if Uberti is hammer forging their Top Break frames or not, but I would suspect they are. Hammer forging is a very old manufacturing process where metal is heated until it is pliable, then it is placed into a form and struck with great force to give the metal the shape of the mold. The advantage to this process instead of machining the part from a solid block of steel is it uses less material, but more importantly it forces the grain of the metal to follow the contours of the new shape. Starting with a solid piece of steel and machining away everything that does not resemble the finished product results in cutting through the lines of the grain (yes metal has grain) which can result in a weaker part, depending on the design and purpose. Machining a forged part that has the grain structure following the contours of the part, results in less cutting through the grain, resulting in a stronger part. An important consideration with the frame of a revolver.

Anyway, I just went to the Uberti web site for some rough numbers. Not counting the exotic models, the Uberti Cattleman, which is their classic replica of the Colt Single Action Army, ranges in price from $599 - $899. Their Top Break models, which include the Russian and Schofield models, run from $1179 - $1599. Yes, these are suggested retail prices and not street prices, but it is a fair comparison.

Yes, Uberti has been making their Top Breaks for a long time, so the tooling costs should have been amortized by now. The same with their Cattlemen models. So clearly, unless Uberti is price gouging with their Top Breaks, they simply cost more to make.

Getting back to the original question in this post: Why did we move away from Top Break revolvers, or perhaps more importantly, why are they not being made today, excepting the Uberti products just mentioned, it is simply a question of supply and demand. If there was enough demand, somebody would do it. I have umpteen old S&W Top Breaks in my collection, big ones, medium sized ones, and little ones, and I can tell you that none of them would be a manufacturing nightmare to produce today. Yes, CNC would be involved, perhaps hammer forging too. But they are all doable. No, I do not believe you will ever see a 45 Casull Top Break revolver. But the old pocket pistol designs chambered for 38 S&W and 32 S&W would be completely feasible, and with modern steel, modern Smokeless ammo, which is loaded fairly light in those calibers anyway, would also be practical. It is simply the old steel that limits the antiques to Black Powder loads.

It is simply supply and demand.

Uberti has done some pretty interesting things in the past few years. They are making cartridge conversion revolvers based on the old Cap & Ball percussion revolvers, that will fire cartridges. They have partnered with Cimarron to make a replica of the S&W American model Top Break. And most interestingly they have partnered with Cimarron to make a cartridge conversion of the little 1862 Pocket Navy chambered for 380 ACP. That was a big surprise to everybody in the CAS world, it never occured to any of us to build such a pistol. To be clear, this model is probably not 'aimed' at the CAS market, it is not a legal pistol for regular CAS matches. I suspect that the general shooting public is the projected market, it being an unusual little pistol, a lot of shooters might like to have one.

So if there was enough demand, I would not put it past Uberti to come up with a replica of one of the old S&W pocket Top Breaks. Chambered for one of the old cartridges, but proofed for Smokeless ammunition.

One more thought. Does anybody remember the Merwin Hulbert debacle from around ten years ago? A start up company announced they would be making a replica of the old Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army. Despite the name, this was a full sized belt revolver, commonly chambered for 44-40. This revolver was billed as being designed totally in 3D CAD, which meant that CNC programming to make the parts was a given. After much ballyhoo, including lots of releases of images created in 3D CAD, and a few actual parts being displayed at some big national gun shows, the company folded. They were underfunded and simply ran out of money. The lesson being that unless it is a well established company such as Uberti, which is owned by Beretta, which is one of the oldest companies in the world (Beretta was founded in 1526), and has deep pockets, any effort to bring a new version of an old revolver to the market will require a lot of money.

And if there is not a market to sell lots and lots of them, it will be a failure.

 

[Buckeye63]

When I turned 16 (1979)I purchased a old
Iver Johnson , Owls head .. 32 S&W top break revolver.. nickel ..
Looked new .. I think I paid $50.00 at a flea market
I went by the Western Auto and bought a box of ammo ... I kept it for years and traded off .. for what , I do not know
Looked like this , but new

 

[whm1974]

Correct me if I am wrong. but to my knowledge the later Webley and Enfield designs, in particular the later models have strongest locking systems around for top breaks. If Someone can produce an updated Webley in .357 Magnum(Way Overpriced) a Modern one in 9mm and .45 ACP should be bog simple.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Correct me if I am wrong. but to my knowledge the later Webley and Enfield designs, in particular the later models have strongest locking systems around for top breaks. If Someone can produce an updated Webley in .357 Magnum(Way Overpriced) a Modern one in 9mm and .45 ACP should be bog simple.

Yes. As a matter of fact a friend, who is a master gunsmith, once rigged up the locking latches from a Webley onto the frame of a replica Schofield. It may have been one of the early ASM Schofields, which had a reputation for poor workmanship and were prone to open up when fired.

 

[brutus51]

Hopefully they're not like my English automobiles: "The parts falling off this vehicle are of the finest British quality".

When I was a kid I had an MG, boy can I relate to this.

 

[whm1974]

When I was a kid I had an MG, boy can I relate to this.

British Vechicals are that bad??? What about Jaguar and Rolls Royce?

Anyway Found this on YouTube about the Webley. Never shot one or uncounted them before.

 

[Speedo66]

British Vechicals are that bad??? What about Jaguar and Rolls Royce?

My brother bought new a 1976 Rolls Royce and a 2016 Bentley GT convertible. Unfortunately, both were in the dealer as much as on the road.

Before them he also had another British car, a 1972 TVR 2500. He just never learned his lesson. lol

There's a reason Jaguar's have such a low resale value.

 

[brutus51]

The MG was a fun hobby car but couldn't be relied on to get you to work. Got great gas mileage but only because half the time it wouldn't start.
Kind of reminds me of the PPK I once had.

 

[Monac]

When I turned 16 (1979)I purchased a old Iver Johnson , Owls head .. 32 S&W top break revolver.. nickel ..Looked new .. I think I paid $50.00 at a flea market
I went by the Western Auto and bought a box of ammo ... I kept it for years and traded off .. for what , I do not know
Looked like this , but newView attachment 918332

That's an Iver Johnson 32 Safety Revolver First Model, Buckeye63. It has a little rotating catch as the top latch, instead of the usual S&W style T-catch. Makes it a little more interesting!