Why did we move away from Top Break Revolvers?

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I would agree that solid frame revolvers are stronger than break-open revolvers, and also that a 2-piece connection between barrel and frame of any kind will eventually lead to loosening and then stretching.
However, I believe that there is a great difference between weak top strap locking designs like the various 19th century S&W service revolvers / pocket revolvers / copies, and with the Webley stirrup lock revolvers.
Also, the metallurgy is a huge factor in such guns, with 19th century steels being weaker by comparison to modern steels.
Certainly a large frame revolver with a modern lockwork design and a Webley stirrup lock, made with modern steels, and used with cartridges like .45 ACP and .45 Colt would probably last as long as any solid frame revolver would in normal use.

From what people say here, I think you may be wrong, Old Stumpy. A jointed frame is just plain weaker than a solid one, and has places where looseness can develop much more quickly. But you raise an interesting question.

Is the steel used in today's revolvers much different from the steel used in good (eg Colt or S&W) revolvers of 125+ years ago? I know that specialized steels, like armor plate and the stuff used in tank transmissions, have improved greatly. And I know many inexpensive top-breaks (eg H&R or Iver Johnson) used "malleable iron" frames, which seems to have been some kind of cast-iron with the carbon content reduced to the level of steel (?). But the tougher the steel, the more difficult machining becomes. I believe I read that Winchester learned that with the nickel-steel alloy they promoted so heavily in their rifles in the 1890's.

Would the steels that are used for making revolvers today make a significant difference to the kind of top break revolvers that could be made today? Or would they just make them last a little longer, or be chambered for slightly more powerful cartridges (like 38 Special +P instead of standard 38 Special) than they otherwise would?
 
Another thing I noticed is that other Italian makers (namely Pietta), doesn't even offer a top break, which leads me to believe that the complexity of setting up the tooling and manufacturing costs make it financially not feasible for them.

Armi San Marco made a "Schofield." I bought one on the basis of a review by an Australian SASS who preferred it to the Uberti. A friend and I each ordered one. The Aussie was wrong, they were dismal and we eventually got partial refunds. The debacle almost put the importer out of business and ASM did not last long afterwards.
 
Armi San Marco made a "Schofield." I bought one on the basis of a review by an Australian SASS who preferred it to the Uberti. A friend and I each ordered one. The Aussie was wrong, they were dismal and we eventually got partial refunds. The debacle almost put the importer out of business and ASM did not last long afterwards.
Interesting, I never had another Schofield before I bought the Uberti, but I still have an old EMF New Dakota SAA that was made by ASM, and It's a nice little gun. Never had any issues with it.
 
I spent my ASM Schofield refund - they gave us back the wholesale price, which was not too bad a deal, we had ordered them through a shop that only charged us $30 each to register them - on a Cimarron/ASM SAA which is quite nice. Squared the rear sight notch and put on hard rubber grips so it is a good mate to my Colt for CAS purposes.
 
Howdy

I just competed in the 2020 Reloading Challenge, Colt vs S&W Top Break.

This was a local event, staged in my own basement.

The competitors, on the left, weighing 2 pounds 11 ounces unloaded, a Smith and Wesson New Model Number Three, manufactured in 1882, refinished at the factory in 1965.

On the right, weighing 2 pounds 8 ounces unloaded, a Second Generation Colt Single Action Army, manufactured around 1968.

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The staging of the guns. Pay no attention to the S&W book here, it was just serving as a stand for the timing device, my Hamilton self winding watch with sweep second hand. No bias in the test, even though the S&W book is there.

Even though I am showing 5 empty cases in this photo, during the trials each revolver was loaded with 5 empty cases, hammer down on the last one that would have been fired. The ammo to be loaded was staged randomly on the table, pretty much as seen here. Why 5 rounds and not 6, because everybody knows these revolvers were only safe to load with 5 rounds, with the hammer down on an empty chamber and that is the way I always shoot them. The ammunition for the S&W was 44 Russian dummy rounds, no powder or primer, but loaded with the same 200 grain round nosed bullets that I normally load for 44 Russian.

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The ammunition for the Colt was five dummy 45 Colt rounds. No primers or powder, the same 250 grain round nosed bullets that I normally shoot. The brass happens to be nickel plated, but that is the dummy 45 Colt rounds I had lying about. The nickel plating made no difference in the trials. Regular spent 45 Colt brass was used for the unloading portion of the trials.

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The scenario: This test mimicked how fast I could empty and reload each revolver if I was in a gunfight. Consequently there was no firing, no cocking hammers, no pulling triggers. Just empty and reload. Each trial started with the revolvers positioned as shown, each with five pieces of spent brass in the cylinder. When the sweep hand of the watch reached zero I grabbed each revolver, emptied it as fast as possible, and reloaded five rounds as fast as I could.

With the Colt I grabbed it, opened the loading gate, put the hammer at half cock, emptied each chamber, then grabbed the ammo off the table and reloaded. Reloading the Colt was done the normal way of loading one, skipping one, loading four more, closing the loading gate, bringing the hammer to full cock and letting it down on an empty chamber.

With the S&W I grabbed the gun, opened the latch and rotated the barrel down, automatically ejecting all five empties, then grabbed the rounds off the table and loaded all five as quickly as possible, taking a moment to line up the empty chamber with the bore as I always do, then closing the action.

In hindsight if I had been in a real gunfight I probably would have loaded six in each revolver, but that is hindsight, that is not what I did.

With each revolver, the most time consuming part was grabbing the rounds off the table and putting them in the chambers. There was always a little fumbling around with both guns. The rounds were lying randomly on the table, not lined up but pointing randomly, so there was always a little bit of fumbling with each revolver getting the rounds in the chambers.

Here is what you have been waiting for, the results:

Colt, best time to empty and reload: 18 seconds.

S&W best time to empty and reload: 9 seconds.

Clearly the S&W had the advantage because the cylinder could be completely emptied in one stroke of rotating the barrel, which automatically dumped all five empties. In practice as I was rotating the barrel I swung the revolver around so the barrel was more or less pointing at the ceiling and all the empties were assisted by gravity to fall out.

With the Colt I gave the ejector rod a smart stroke for each chamber, emptying all five empties into my hand, then I dropped them on the table. I was reminded of some of the guys in CAS who would show up at the unloading table and point their revolvers skyward while banging the grip on the table to shake the empties out. I used to have fun asking them if they knew what the ejector rod was for. None of that in this trial, each empty received a smart whack from the ejector rod to send it flying out of the chamber.

In truth, the S&W did not seem to have much of an advantage in reloading even though the rear of the cylinder was open and ready to receive the fresh rounds. Sometimes I grabbed two at a time, sometimes just one. There was always enough juggling of rounds going on that it took longer to reload than if I had been using some sort of speed loader. Which did not exist in 1882. For those not familiar with it this is what a S&W Top Break looks like just before all the empties are ejected. After the ejector pops down the rear of the cylinder is completely exposed for loading.

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This is what a chamber of the Colt looks like ready to receive a round. Yes, there is an advantage in loading large calibers over small calibers. The 45 Colt chambers are very large, and with the hammer at half cock each chamber is perfectly lined up with the loading gate.

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I was not holding the ammo for the Colt like this, this was the only way I could hold the revolver and ammo with one hand while taking pictures with the other hand. But this gives a good idea how a 45 Colt cartridge with a round nose will pretty much find its own way into a chamber just using gravity. In truth, there were several times I lost a few tenths of a second because I had to jiggle a round a little bit to get it to drop into the chamber.

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There you have it, the 2020 Colt vs S&W Top Break Reloading Challenge.

All results are final, there will be no arguing with the judge, who happened to be the only contestant.
 
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Ive been eyeballing the Iver Johnson "Sealed 8" in 22lr for years but still havent bought one. I doubt in that caliber the strength of the break-mechanism would ever be an issue. I'd love it if they were available in 22Mag. sealed8.JPG

A friend recently turned me on to the idea of 22short for pest control. I live in the hills, but there are a few houses nearby. Friend said that 22short is not as loud as even a typical July4th firecracker(?) A Sealed 8 loaded with them might be ideal for small varmints around the yard.
 
Is the steel used in today's revolvers much different from the steel used in good (eg Colt or S&W) revolvers of 125+ years ago?

Howdy

The frames of early Colt Single Action Army revolvers and early Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers were both made of Malleable Iron, not steel.

In its most basic form, steel is nothing more than iron with a small amount of carbon added. The more carbon added to the iron, the harder and more brittle the steel. Low carbon steel will typically have a carbon content of approximately .05% to .25%. Medium carbon steel will have a carbon content of approximately .14% to .84% with approximately .60% to 1.65% manganese added. High carbon steel will have approximately 0.59% to 0.65% carbon content with 0.30 to 0.90% manganese content.

Malleable iron is very different than the typical cast iron found in frying pans. Cast iron cannot be formed by the blacksmiths hammer or the gun manufacturing company's massive hammer forges. Even if heated, it cannot be pounded into a new shape, there is too much carbon content and other impurities.

Cast iron has been around since the 6th Century BC. Around 1350 the blast furnace was invented, making mass production of Cast Iron possible. Cast Iron is sometimes called Pig Iron because early casting techniques involved pouring the molten iron into a series of sand molds branching of from the main stream, resembling piglets suckling at a mother pig.

As I stated, cast iron cannot be reformed by forging, there are two many impurities from the casting process and too much carbon.

Malleable iron has been around since about 1600. Various process were used to purify the iron. It is also sometimes called wrought iron, meaning it can be worked under heat and impact, by the blacksmith at his forge.

Steel has actually been known since ancient times, but it was difficult to make and was only available in very small pieces. There were several different methods of making steel, but the drawback was always that it could only be produced in small quantities by craftsmen and was expensive. The Bessemer process, patented in 1856 by Henry Bessemer was the first time steel could be made in large quantities relatively inexpensively. The Bessemer process used air blown through the molten iron to oxidize impurities from the iron. Once the iron was relatively pure, other elements could be added to make different types of steel.

It is quite well documented that Colt was using malleable iron for both frames and cylinders of the Single Action Army, starting in 1873. Over the years, the metallurgy of Colt revolvers improved until by 1900 Colt felt the steel then in use could be factory warrantied to withstand the pressures generated by Smokeless Powder. The metal content of S&W revolvers is not as well documented as Colt, but the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson states the frames of the 1st Model Schofield were made of iron. There were 3035 1st Model Schofields built, all in 1875. SCSW states that the 2nd Model Schofield, made from 1876 until 1877 had a steel frame. I know it is a bad idea to assume, but I would assume that all the S&W Top Breaks made previous to the Schofields, the American and Russian models also had iron frames. Yes, this would be malleable iron.

From what I have read, nickel seems to be the most important element in developing modern steel. At the turn of the Century (around 1900) nickel steel was being used in the armor plating of battleships. The Navy supplied barrels made of 4.5 per cent nickel steel to Winchester for the Model 1895 Lee rifle. I believe this was the first use of nickel steel in a rifle barrel.

A really good reference about this stuff is a book called Fighting Iron, A Metals Handbook for Arms Collectors, by Art Gogan. He goes into a lot of detail about metals used in arms over the centuries, and it is easy for the layman (like me) to understand. The documentation about iron and steel used in Colts comes from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers, a Shop Manual, Volumes 1 &2.
 
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Like @Driftwood Johnson I did a little reload timing this morning also. My two guns were my Ruger Blackhawk in 357 Magnum vs my Webley Mark IV in 38-200.
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For both revolvers, they were loaded full with 6 empty cartridges since both revolvers are safe loaded and carried full. 38 Special in the Ruger and 38 S&W in the Webley. For reloading I used dummy cartridges made with 158 gr Berry's plated RN in empty 38 Special cases for the Blackhawk and 200 gr MkII profile bullets in empty 38 S&W cases for Webley.

So I was focused on the reload but just because it feels right and is the way I usually practice my revolver reloads with my more modern revolvers here is the drill I did. Using a shot timer with a random start (it would beep 1-5 seconds after I pressed start button) I would draw on the start beep bring the revolver up to address a spot on the wall and shoot (click) that spot twice, execute my reload, and shoot (click) the spot two more times.

In the first two tries at the drill in the video below you will here a second beep. After a few practice tries before firing up the camera I set a par time of 13 seconds to go for on the timer just as something to try for. So that second beep is 13 seconds after the first one. Reloads were drawn from a Blackhawk elastics shell loops on the belt in front of the holster.

So I don't normally shoot either of these revolver, neither has been to the range in at least 3 years. So this was rather awkward with both revolvers for me since I am very use to a modern S&W and its manual of arms. I practiced with each of the setups about 12-15 times before rolling the camera. Having to pick up the loose empties off the ground is a pain compared to my usually moonclip fed practices (the empties go everywhere out of the Webley). I then took several tries with the camera rolling to get the best of the best that I included in the video below. The single action was not as slow as I thought it would be but still slow. The thing is the single action took a lot more focus (especially the unloading process) and was prone to fumbles more easily. The Ruger required close to 20 takes to get the one I included here. The Webley probably only took 8-10 tries to get a good one. The Webley with the speed-loader took 3 takes with no practice attempts before filming. The one thing with the Webley I notice was it would occasionally leave an empty shell in a chamber if you did not vigorously open it. Once or twice an empty got caught on the extractor in the up position binding things up. Both revolvers had fumble issues compared to my modern S&W but I certainly fumbled with the Ruger noticeably more.


The results of the reload times as measure from the second click of the first double-tap to the first click of the second double-tap.

Ruger Black Hawk: 17.0 seconds
Webley Mark IV: 11.0 seconds
Webley Mk IV with Comp III speedloader: 4.8 seconds.

And just for reference this is more what I am use to.


Same drill as above but with a S&W 627 with the same 38 Special dummies used in the Ruger but on a moonclip.
2 second reload. 3.6 seconds (par time set for the second beep) for the entire drill.

MOONCLIPS RULE! :D But I still want a Webley Mark VI in 455 Webley!
 
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Too bad I didn't video what I was doing.

You were drawing and shooting, I wasn't. I'm not a very fast shooter and don't profess to be.

You had a slight advantage over me in that all your single action rounds were lined up in their shell loops, I was grabbing mine that were laying randomly on a table. I think I was dumping the empties out of my Colt a little quicker than you, but I have been doing it for a long time. I was really whacking the ejector rod for each chamber.

You were definitely faster than me dumping the empties out of the Webley. Your empties were flying all over the place. I will offer as an excuse that my S&W is an antique and I did not want to run it too roughly.

No contest with the speed loaders, but as I said they were not available in 1882.

Really fast with your modern S&W. I will have to try that sometime.

Fun, huh?
 
11 years later (1893) the Webley would have a pretty good speed-loader available on the market. The Prideaux loader.

 
I also worked on this again this afternoon. Just as before, fire five rounds, reload and fire five more, using a timer with a random start. I was able to beat my previous best with a single action using a S&W K-frame by 1sec at 14secs. Average was more like 16secs. This is live fire on my home range, not dryfire. Worthy of note that it takes me the same length of time to fire five rounds, regardless of what I'm using. About 1.5secs.

Which does nothing but reinforce my original point. Not that SA's are as fast or faster than DA's but that people have this idea that SA's are so slow while DA's (or top breaks) are blazingly fast. As I have said multiple times over the last several years, they are quicker to dump and that is all. I break even on the load.

If you're loading the single action one round at a time and fully inserting each cartridge into the chamber with your fingers, you're giving away a lot of time and the advantage to loading it quickly.
 
Ive been eyeballing the Iver Johnson "Sealed 8" in 22lr for years but still havent bought one. I doubt in that caliber the strength of the break-mechanism would ever be an issue. I'd love it if they were available in 22Mag. View attachment 919058

A friend recently turned me on to the idea of 22short for pest control. I live in the hills, but there are a few houses nearby. Friend said that 22short is not as loud as even a typical July4th firecracker(?) A Sealed 8 loaded with them might be ideal for small varmints around the yard.
I have a H&R break top in .22lr.

Called "SPORTSMAN" with 6" barrel

holds 9 rounds and is VERY accurate.

Love it to death,only complaint is I dont fancy the grips.

And new ones are not easy [ maybe impossible [ to find..

btw = you really need to look at CCI CB caps Long,the quietest round even over their "quiet" round.

But see if you can get the 'long' case and not the 'short' as they are the same ,but the longs are easier to handle.
 
Driftwood, thank you for your excellent post about the materials used in early revolvers. A lot of it goes over my head because my knowledge of iron and steel is shallow. For example, I tend to think in terms of A) Wrought iron (low carbon content), B) Steel (intermediate carbon content) and C) Cast iron (more carbon than steel has).

Wrought iron had a LOT of impurities in it because of the primitive way it was made. Although some of these impurities could be useful, (for example, improving the corrosion resistance of wrought iron compared to steel) they made it an inconsistent product. Was "malleable iron" a product with the carbon level of wrought iron, but with many fewer impurities by virtue of being made from cast iron, which generally had a much lower level of impurities than wrought iron? [see PS]

Or is this a question that does not even make any sense, because I don't know enough about what I am talking about to ask a proper question? I am quite prepared for this to be the case. :)

Having said that, I am going to make one more leap in logic: You seem to be saying that the frames of early Colt and S&W cartridge revolvers were made from a material like wrought iron, but with fewer impurities. In modern terms, this is what would be called "mild steel". (Mild steel has the same level of carbon that wrought iron traditionally had, but is made via steel-making procedures with none of the impurities of wrought iron.) If that is the case, then modern top breaks, simply by virtue of being made of actual steel, and particularly if they were made of "alloy steel" (steel with traces of other metals added to enhance various properties, including different types of strength) would be considerably more durable than the old "malleable iron" top breaks.

I suspect this is the reason the Webley Mark VI .455 revolvers have proved so durable, despite being abused by decades of use with 45 ACP loads. They are made of decent steel, and not the quasi-wrought iron of Iver Johnsons and H&Rs.

I very much hope I have not twisted what you wrote out of all recognition. By the way, if you are tired of having to write long essays to satisfy someone's idle curiosity, please feel free not to. We impose on your knowledge and good will a lot.

PS - your post seems to assume a) that cast iron had a lot of impurities too, and b) that these impurities were the cause for it lacking malleability. My understanding (from Gogan's book, which I have) is that it was the high carbon content that made cast iron a radically different material from steel or wrought iron, and in particular, brittle (in the sense that will break before it will bend).
 
S&W best time to empty and reload: 9 seconds.
My best with a hand-ejector was about 8 seconds, so that's in the right neighborhood.
Webley Mark IV: 11.0 seconds
If you have a setup where you can grab 2 or 3 rounds at once, you should be able to take a couple of seconds off that time.
I was able to beat my previous best with a single action using a S&W K-frame by 1sec at 14secs. Average was more like 16secs. This is live fire on my home range, not dryfire. Worthy of note that it takes me the same length of time to fire five rounds, regardless of what I'm using. About 1.5secs.
That is definitely fast for an SAA type action. I figured 2 seconds for 6 shots which I think was conservative. Using your figure of 5 shots in 1.5 seconds, that would make my 9-10 second hand-ejector reload time convert to a (5, reload, 5) in the 12-13 second range with a best time of about 11 seconds.
 
Agree @JohnKSa if I had a 2x2x2 pouch I could shave a couple seconds off my Webley reload for sure. But other than for this test I almost never carry a revolver with loose, individual rounds for my reloads. The shell loops show in that post are just for my Blackhawk (which is almost never used anymore) and for feeding ammo to my Rossi M92. I am very much setup for carrying moonclips and speed-loaders for my revolvers.
 
Wrought iron had a LOT of impurities in it because of the primitive way it was made. Although some of these impurities could be useful, (for example, improving the corrosion resistance of wrought iron compared to steel) they made it an inconsistent product. Was "malleable iron" a product with the carbon level of wrought iron, but with many fewer impurities by virtue of being made from cast iron, which generally had a much lower level of impurities than wrought iron? [see PS]

Open your copy of Gogan to page 35. He states that Wrought Iron is just another name for Malleable Iron. He does not state what the carbon content is, but I suspect it is near 0, making the iron malleable (able to be hammered or pressed permanently out of shape without breaking or cracking.)

Kuhnhausen states:

1st Generation S.A.A. cylinder material changes began to occur at about the same time that S.A.A. frames were being metallurgically updated. Cylinders prior to approx. s/n 96,000 (mid 1883) were made from materials generally resembling high grade malleable iron. Original cylinders from approx. s/n 96,000 to about 180,000 (mid 1898) were made from transitional low/medium grade carbon type steels. These cylinders and their parent frames were not factory guaranteed for smokeless powder cartridges. Cylinders after frame s/n 180,000 (mid 1898) began to be made from medium carbon type steels. Later versions of these cylinders were better and more uniformly heat treated. S.A.A. revolvers with cylinders of this final type were factory guaranteed in 1900 for standard factory load smokeless powder cartridges.

I refer to this so many times that I have typed it into a word document so I can paste it into forums like this easily.

Go to page 37 in Gogan to read up on the many different types of steel that were being produced before and after the Bessemer process. There were a lot of them. Page 43 describes the percentage of carbon in low, medium, and high carbon steel. Among other things he has a great description of the process used to make Damascus steel barrels starting on page 53. Pay attention to the illustrations on pages 66 and 67 showing how rolled steel barrels were made. I had a great discussion about this with one of the curators at the Springfield Armory a bunch of years ago. That is the process that was being used to make the Springfield rifled musket model of 1861. Springfield Armory was turning out 1000 muskets per day at the height of the Civil War. Nickel steel is on page 67, stainless is on page 69, and Ordnance steel is on page 71. While you are at it, look up Gun Metal on page 78. That is the type of bronze that was used for the frames of the Henry and 1866 Winchesters. The frames are often called brass, but they were actually a type of bronze, commonly called Gun Metal.

Anyway, Colt frames and cylinders were made of malleable iron in 1873. I have no documentation to say what sort of iron S&W was using for Schofield frames, but I doubt if they had access to metal that was any better than what Colt was using just 26 miles down the Connecticut river, so I suspect S&W was using malleable iron too.
 
From what people say here, I think you may be wrong, Old Stumpy. A jointed frame is just plain weaker than a solid one, and has places where looseness can develop much more quickly.

I did specifically mention cartridges like .45 ACP and .45 Colt, not cartridges like .357 magnum or .44 magnum. These .45's have SAAMI chamber pressures under 15,000 PSI, compared to around 35,000 PSI for the other two. Much easier on the frame.

Also, lumping all top break designs together for a single consideration of strength or weakness is like comparing apples and oranges. The Webley stirrup lock is by far the strongest, while the other designs vary from acceptable to weak.

Would the steels that are used for making revolvers today make a significant difference to the kind of top break revolvers that could be made today? Or would they just make them last a little longer, or be chambered for slightly more powerful cartridges (like 38 Special +P instead of standard 38 Special) than they otherwise would?

Consider that the .44 magnum revolvers of today were impossible in 19th century with any design and you have your answer. Modern metallurgy made it possible. So, those same alloys used in a modern top break revolver, combined with standard (not magnum or high pressure) cartridges would make a great difference.

Also, consider that the venerable P08 Luger design, while not a revolver, employs a multi-jointed toggle action breech design, yet it handles the high pressure 9mm parabellum cartridge just fine.
Though this cartridge has a chamber pressure similar to .44 magnum, I can't recall reading anywhere that this design loosens up and develops excess headspace or looseness problems.
 
Iver Johnsons are particularly neat. After about 1908, they had coil mainsprings and many are in decent shape.
This one is the Second or third variation hammerless safety. Functions well with .38 s&w factory and reloads but has an enormous bc gap and looses a lot of velocity. The cylinder has No end float so, came that way from the factory

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This one is a 32 Long but needs either federal or factory primers for double action ignition. The mainspring (coil) strut has adjustment steps but no apparent way of removing'/ adjusting it.

This model with the target grips appeared in the 1940 Gun Digest. tight and accurate as you might expect one to be.

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Ive been eyeballing the Iver Johnson "Sealed 8" in 22lr for years but still havent bought one. I doubt in that caliber the strength of the break-mechanism would ever be an issue. I'd love it if they were available in 22Mag. View attachment 919058

A friend recently turned me on to the idea of 22short for pest control. I live in the hills, but there are a few houses nearby. Friend said that 22short is not as loud as even a typical July4th firecracker(?) A Sealed 8 loaded with them might be ideal for small varmints around the yard.

The sealed 8 models were pretty cool. I have a Sealed 8 Supershot made in 1953 or 54. I can't read it real well, but it looks like the picture is of a supershot (side of barrel) I find the sights are a bit difficult for me to use. There just isn't enough space in the rear notch to easily see an even amount of light on both sides of the front sight. I need to work on either the front or rear sight to fix that. The trigger pull isn't the best but I don't want to start fooling with that until I have the sight issues resolved. Keep in mind, my eyes are 59 years old (I'm not that old, but my eyes are) and someone with younger eyes could probably use the sights as is. I have even resorted to using my Merit Optical Attachment (removable diopter) on my shooting glasses to get a better view of both the sights and target.

I don't know if the standard Sealed 8 has it, but the Supershot Sealed 8 has an adjustment on the mainspring to adjust the hammer strength. I didn't notice this until after my last outing where I had miserable day with over 40% fail to fire. Duh, I'll see how well it does now that I know I can adjust it. I think the sights on the Supershot are nicer too.

Overall I think you will like the Sealed 8. If you can, get the Supershot. It just looks really cool. The latest version comes with a smooth cylinder.

Edit to add photo:

Supershot 1.JPG
 
Old story:
dude was visiting his gun smith friend when a guy came in with an H&R/Iver Johnson-Smith -etc designed top break that latches over a couple of uprights over the breech. The barrel /cylinder assembly was loose. The smith told him it would be ready in a day or two.
As soon as the guy left, he reversed teh revolver and expanded the latch lugs by whopping it on his table vice." Tight as new. Can't let the customers see that- freak them out, you know."
 
@Driftwood Johnson, of course your reloads with the S&W .44 were faster than with the Colt.

You were only lifting 200g bullets with the S&W, as opposed to 250g with the Colt.

Less weight, so they came up off the table faster. lol

Thanks for taking the time to create the 2020 Reloading Challenge!
 
These .45's have SAAMI chamber pressures under 15,000 PSI, compared to around 35,000 PSI for the other two. Much easier on the frame.
Chamber pressure per se is not what defines the stress on the frame.

So, those same alloys used in a modern top break revolver, combined with standard (not magnum or high pressure) cartridges would make a great difference.
That is true, but modern alloys cannot make the hinged frame as strong and as durable as a solid frame.

Also, consider that the venerable P08 Luger design, while not a revolver, employs a multi-jointed toggle action breech design, yet it handles the high pressure 9mm parabellum cartridge just fine.
Though this cartridge has a chamber pressure similar to .44 magnum, I can't recall reading anywhere that this design loosens up and develops excess headspace or looseness problems.
There is no comparison between the load paths of the Luger and those of a revolver with a hinge way below the barrel a latch way above and behind the hinge.
 
I was able to fumble each cartridge equally well.

This is one of the biggest advantage to speed-loader and moonclips. The fumble factor for both of those reload methods is so much lower than loose cartridges. But then again the fumble factor of loose metallic cartridges is probably equally better than loose powder, cap, and balls.
 
Chamber pressure per se is not what defines the stress on the frame.

Can you explain what does? I don't think that I understand what you mean.

That is true, but modern alloys cannot make the hinged frame as strong and as durable as a solid frame.

It doesn't need to be, does it? As I have twice stated, I referred to cartridges in the .45 ACP / 15,000 PSI range, not the .357 magnum / .44 magnum / 35,000 PSI range.
A product-improved Webley that uses modern metallurgy and modern lockworks (say from a Ruger Security Six) would last through many, many rounds of 15,000 PSI ammunition.

There is no comparison between the load paths of the Luger and those of a revolver with a hinge way below the barrel a latch way above and behind the hinge.

Can you explain what you mean by "load paths" with respect a product-improved Webley design? I don't think that I understand what you mean.

Also, can you explain why you believe that a multi-hinged toggle action that distributes 35,000 PSI through several pins and a 3 piece breech bolt would be stronger?

Also, why do believe that the location of the hinge pin below the barrel and a very strong stirrup latch located a fraction of an inch above the barrel negatively affects the strength of the action?

Remember that we are discussing a product-improved version of the strongest design of break-open revolver developed, using modern metallurgy, and using 15,000 PSI cartridges. Certainly, a larger diameter hinge pin could be used, and the hinge itself could be a little wider, if it was thought necessary.

It's curious that we accept Glock plastic pistol frames that are being impacted by 35,000 PSI cartridges like .40 Caliber and 9 mm, but we can't believe that a modern beefy all-steel break open revolver can handle 15,000 PSI.
 
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