Why do people think a pump / lever / revolver is better than an Autoloader?

[elChupacabra!]

Wheeler44,

Thanks for clarifying that, and I apologize for taking offense at you - I didn't realize you were speaking about some of the other replies.

As far as confidence, I definitely feel confident in the weapons I have chosen to train with. I also feel pretty good about why I've chosen the weapons I have for defensive purposes, but I definitely wouldn't claim to know absolute truth, so please don't hear me as asserting that in any capacity.

In part, my question stems from curiosity and wanting to gain a broader perspective. Of course I'll still make my own choices, but I do appreciate what I'm learning from many on this board. Hey, some of you might even change my mind on some things that I thought I was pretty sure of - and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Thanks again for contributing to this discussion, and keep shooting what makes you happy.

 

[mavracer]

Even though a manually cycled weapon would definitely have an edge in terms of feeding diverse ammunition types, for an HD scenario, I've typically already thought the ammo out well enough that there shouldn't be any feeding / firing / ejecting problems associated with what's already waiting in the gun.

Now, for an EOTWAWKI scenario, I'd DEFINITELY want a pump shotgun over an autoloader, and I can see the benefits of a revolver over an auto, too. Even the lever and bolt guns would probably have more utility in the very long run than a semi-auto rifle. In that situation, absolute reliability for the absolute longest period of time possible would be a big priority, as cleaning the gun / replacing parts / buying a new one may become out of the question, as would careful ammunition selection. You would need to shoot what you could get, so a simple, reliable, robust platform would be choice.

funny while in either case I'd feel comfy with either in the EOTWAWKI scienario I would prefer my AR or M1/M1A.
If in a HD invasion scenario ther are enough BG with enough determination to over run me with my lever/wheel guns I'm probably not gonna do much better with the autos.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Mavracer,

Well yeah, for the short-term, in an EOTWAYKI scenario, I'd rather have my AR and hopefully (if I can get one soon) also an AK for the firepower and, thus, comfort they would provide... but assuming I survived those first 30 days or so, living out the rest of my days would probably be aided more by a bolt gun and / or pump shotgun rather than an autoloading rifle / shotgun. Just idle musings there, though.

And about a horde of BGs coming into my house, that's not really the reason I would want the rapid fire of an autoloader - its how quickly, efficiently and accurately I could get 2 or 3 rounds per each into 1 or 2 bad guys. Although some say that the first shot is the only one that counts, as others say, anybody worth being shot once is worth being shot twice. That's the whole thrust of my argument in favor of autoloaders.

 

[mavracer]

Well yeah, for the short-term, in an EOTWAYKI scenario, I'd rather have my AR and hopefully (if I can get one soon) also an AK for the firepower and, thus, comfort they would provide... but assuming I survived those first 30 days or so, living out the rest of my days would probably be aided more by a bolt gun and / or pump shotgun rather than an autoloading rifle / shotgun. Just idle musings there, though.

after 30 days I'm thinkin I want my 10/22 and the 10,000 rounds I can easily carry.

And about a horde of BGs coming into my house, that's not really the reason I would want the rapid fire of an autoloader - its how quickly, efficiently and accurately I could get 2 or 3 rounds per each into 1 or 2 bad guys. Although some say that the first shot is the only one that counts, as others say, anybody worth being shot once is worth being shot twice. That's the whole thrust of my argument in favor of autoloaders.

hey all cool I love thinking outside the box,so here's some food for thought.
advantages of a '92 win (or copy)
1:44 mag/45 colt have great ballistics from a 16" tube 240-250 jhps @ 1600 fps.
2: magazine can be topped off without lowering rifle or temporarilly empting rifle.
3: the tang grip and design are perfectly suited for a butt stroke @ close range.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I am going to do a very irresponsible thing, something which I've never done before, and post my response without reading through the 4 PAGES of previous responses. I'll simply give my opinion on the OP's post.

You ask why people think lever/revolver/pumps are BETTER. Then you refer mainly to the RELIABILITY issue. BETTER and MORE RELIABLE are 2 different things. Do I think an out-of-the-box Ruger or S&W revolver is more RELIABLE than an out-of-the-box auto-loading pistol? Yes. Better? No.

I've short-stroked a pump shotgun once. It has not happened since. With enough practice and training to eliminate operator error, a good quality pump shotgun will never let you down. The same can't be said for an auto-loader. Even if you take the operator out of the equation, there's more that can go wrong than with a pump.

Same for revolvers vs. semi-auto pistols. I have 3 revolvers and 3 semi-auto handguns. Berettas, Rugers, Springfields, and S&Ws. All good quality firearms. All have thousands of rounds through them. All 3 semi-autos have, at one or another, failed in some way. NONE of the revolvers have ever had the slightest hiccup.

I love all my firearms. But if I had to sell off my collection and only keep 1 handgun, 1 rifle, and 1 shotgun, they would be:

Remington 870 Marine - PUMP
Ruger GP100 - REVOLVER
Winchester 30-30 - LEVER

Go figure.

 

[ArmedBear]

BTW my 870 won't cycle Winchester Universal junk loads from Wal-Mart.

I think that, if you really want a shotgun that will shoot just about anything you can stick in it, a break-action is the best option. Side-by-sides still have a place.

 

[MinnMooney]

to OregonJohnny :

BETTER and MORE RELIABLE are 2 different things.

HUH!?! Reliablity is THEE most important quality in ANY weapon. If it doesn't fire - who cares how pretty, accurate, ambidexterous, powerful, tacti-cool or well balanced it is. You have a CLUB if it's not dependable. Get real, man. BETTER and MORE RELIABLE are the same when it comes to weapons and friends.


Autoloaders - fastest - fairly reliable
Pumps - fairly fast - reliable
Levers - slower - reliable (but the feeder tube-type are very slow to reload).
Bolts - slow - very reliable and the most accurate (arguably).
Revolvers - fast - probably the single most reliable firearm ever invented.

I know, I know..... we've all seen some trick-show shooter fire 6 rounds from a wheel gun and reload and shoot 6 more rounds all in 3.99 seconds BUT neither you nor I can do that so let's stick with the real world.

ANY GUN CAN JAMB - period. My dad taught me that the bolt action makes you think harder about that 1st shot 'cause you know it'll take just a little longer to get off a 2nd shot. He was right. I've heard people with autoloaders take 3,4 or 5 shots with absolutely no pause between any of them - even between the 1st ans 2nd! They just throw lead out there like it's a fully automatic AK-47.

 

[mavracer]

I think that, if you really want a shotgun that will shoot just about anything you can stick in it, a break-action is the best option. Side-by-sides still have a place.

Just for my love of you THRers I'm volenterally running an experiment.I've replaced the 1911 in my nightstand with a Cimmaron 1873 artillary model P,the AR under my bed with a Cimmaron 1873 rifle BTW they are both 45Colts and loaded with 250gr Golddots.I've also replaced the CAR and 870 in the closet with an 03A3 and a hammered coach gun neither are loaded but a bandolier of mixed buckshot and slugs and 5 stripper clips of LC72 heavy match ammo are near.
I'll see if I can manage to get any sleep with the autoloaders all locked up.

 

[ArmedBear]

My dad taught me that the bolt action makes you think harder about that 1st shot 'cause you know it'll take just a little longer to get off a 2nd shot. He was right. I've heard people with autoloaders take 3,4 or 5 shots with absolutely no pause between any of them - even between the 1st ans 2nd! They just throw lead out there like it's a fully automatic AK-47.

Another thought... In a SHTF situation, where you won't be cleaning the gun while watching re-runs of Sex in the City, you also won't be carrying 1000 rounds of ammo.

 

[MinnMooney]

ArmedBear :

You're right. If it's a SHTF situation, some will be prepared but most will grab what they can and do what they can. It probably won't include 10,000 rounds of ammo (like you say) so every shot should count. One shot - one hit. It's harder to find you that way.

 

[elChupacabra!]

LOL - I don't know what the rest of you guys watch while you clean YOUR guns, but we now all know what ArmedBear watches!

 

[ArmedBear]

That or Will and Grace. At least ever since the Brokeback Mountain DVD got all scratched up...

 

[Defensory]

Posted by ArmedBear:
BTW my 870 won't cycle Winchester Universal junk loads from Wal-Mart.

I've also found that many pumps won't handle certain brands/types of ammunition. It's a myth that every pump can handle every brand/type of ammo.

Posted by ArmedBear:
I think that, if you really want a shotgun that will shoot just about anything you can stick in it, a break-action is the best option. Side-by-sides still have a place.

In the event of a home invasion or parking lot ambush etc. involving multiple armed perpetrators, one or two rounds before having to reload isn't going to cut it.

The U.S. Marine Corps has complete confidence in their semi-automatic Benelli shotgun, the military equivalent of the M4 Super 90.

The U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard are also slated to receive major shipments of the same shotgun.

Many SWAT teams and law enforcement agencies around the country now use semi-automatics as their primary shotguns.

Today's semi-automatic shotguns are highly reliable, and deliver rounds at a speed that is unmatched by pumps, doubles and single shots.

 

[ArmedBear]

Today's semi-automatic shotguns are highly reliable, and deliver rounds at a speed that is unmatched by pumps, doubles and single shots.

I've got at least one of each, so I'm not worried about lack of firepower.

 

[Joe Demko]

All through this thread I've seen posts carrying on about the reliability of lever actions. There's more to it, though, than just reliability. There's also durability.
IMO, typical lever action rifles have some rather disturbing durablity issues if we are going to play end-of-the-world games.
Let's start with tube magazines. If you fall on the gun and bend the tube magazine, it's screwed and there isn't much you are going to do in the field that will set it right. Ditto if anything happens that dents the tube. Either way, you are now the owner of a single shot. Doesn't have to be you falling on it, either, for those of you who are about to tell me how Alexander Gudenov was a gallumphing oaf compared to your poise and grace. Anything that damages the tube magazine turns the gun into a single shot. Damage a detachable box magazine and you toss it and use another, presuming_of course_ you have another.
Lever actions tend to have stocks that are comparatively thin and fragile through the wrist. I've seen one broken when the guy who owned it fell the last few feet getting out of his treestand and landed on his rifle.
Other than a few used by the Russians, lever action rifles never saw any level of success as military arms. There was a reason for that.

BTW, I am the proud owner of a Marlin .45-70 Guide Gun and the Savage Model 99 is my all-time favorite rifle, bar none. We must, however, consider more than just gun A relies on muscle to cycle the action and gun B relies on energy provided by the cartridge.

 

[MinnMooney]

Today's semi-automatic shotguns are highly reliable, and deliver rounds at a speed that is unmatched by pumps, doubles and single shots.

Of course............ but at what accuracy? Six rounds in 2 seconds with 4 pellets hitting his arm is no match for 1 aimed shot to center mass.

Please don't jump on me for this statement. You and I both know that neither of us can put 5 or 6 well placed shots into a target in 2 seconds. (A pump can do 5 shots in 1.6 seconds, BTW, but still, not accurately.)

If my very life depended on reliability......... I'd pick up a revolver of break-open single/dbl.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

when Alaska park rangers go in after a grizzly bear that has attacked a human, they go in with 12 ga. pump shotguns.
That says a lot in my book

Yeah, like, the park service can't afford BARs or SAWs.

 

[ArmedBear]

I've seen one broken when the guy who owned it fell the last few feet getting out of his treestand and landed on his rifle.

I don't disagree with you about lever guns durability issues in general, though the tube mag on my 1894C seems no more likely to bend than the barrel of a 20 Gauge.

However, I think that it's good to note that just about any wood stock, and low-priced plastic ones, will break at the wrist if you land on them, each end of the rifle catches on something, and your weight is near the middle of the gun's length. Maybe not the wood they use on an 870 Express now, but I wouldn't bet on it.

(I'm assuming this guy and his gear weren't exactly light.)

Also, a similar landing on an AR would totally disable it. Bye bye to the buffer tube. Maybe bye bye to the back of lower receiver. Same with a Remington 1100 or 11-87, which has a similar design.

Other than a few used by the Russians, lever action rifles never saw any level of success as military arms. There was a reason for that.

Yes there was. Damn things weren't worth a crap for prone shooting and shooting over the top of a trench.

They had beefy box magazines and durable military-configuration lever guns in the late 1890s. They just didn't do what the military needed.

US Military rifle in .30-40 Krag:

Russian version in 7.62x54R:

 

[DougDubya]

"In the event of a home invasion or parking lot ambush etc. involving multiple armed perpetrators, one or two rounds before having to reload isn't going to cut it."

Clint Smith laughs at such idiocy...

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/webblastTRDS.html

But what does he know? He's only been a SWAT officer, right? After all, he's been associated with a man you call a fairy-tale teller.

 

[janobles14]

i am going with the crowd that hasnt plowed through all 4 pages of responses...

for me i find most of the styles besides autoloaders to be much stronger and "beefier". they are able to handle a wider variety of loads from squib to hot.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by MinnMooney:
Of course............ but at what accuracy? Six rounds in 2 seconds with 4 pellets hitting his arm is no match for 1 aimed shot to center mass.

Please don't jump on me for this statement. You and I both know that neither of us can put 5 or 6 well placed shots into a target in 2 seconds. (A pump can do 5 shots in 1.6 seconds, BTW, but still, not accurately.)

If my very life depended on reliability......... I'd pick up a revolver of break-open single/dbl.

You vainly attempt to perpetuate the myth that semi-autos are somehow inherently more inaccurate than pumps or break-opens.

I'm sorry you don't possess the ability to fire rapid and accurate shots with a semi-automatic shotgun. However, the U.S. Marines, SWAT teams and law enforcement agencies around the country that have adopted semi-autos are quite pleased with them.

So don't assume because YOU lack the ability, that all people do---and in a home invasion or parking lot ambush involving multiple perpetrators, your break-open single will get you killed. You might get one of them, then while you're trying to reload the others will promptly kill you.

I'm sure your surviving family members at your funeral will take great comfort knowing you were carrying what you believed to be a "reliable" weapon.

 

[ArmedBear]

Nothing wrong with a semiauto. Lots right about it.

However, they are more picky about ammo than a double gun. If you're scrounging, a double gun has its place. That's all I said, anyway.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't rather have a good freshly cleaned and oiled Benelli loaded with the best tacticool ammo I can get.

Do you think that "has its place" means "is better than whatever whizbang military/SWAT weapon I can pull out of my ass for the sake of argument?" That's not what "has its place" means to me.

 

[mavracer]

You vainly attempt to perpetuate the myth that semi-autos are somehow inherently more inaccurate than pumps or break-opens.

I'm sorry you don't possess the ability to fire rapid and accurate shots with a semi-automatic shotgun. However, the U.S. Marines, SWAT teams and law enforcement agencies around the country that have adopted semi-autos are quite pleased with them.

So don't assume because YOU lack the ability, that all people do---and in a home invasion or parking lot ambush involving multiple perpetrators, your break-open single will get you killed. You might get one of them, then while you're trying to reload the others will promptly kill you.

I'm sure your surviving family members at your funeral will take great comfort knowing you were carrying what you believed to be a "reliable" weapon.

hey no need for that.nobody called you out personally.I belive he was making the point that accuracy takes president over speed.you cant miss fast enough.aimed shots with a pump will not be far behind an auto many years of bowling pin shooting there's not much difference.

 

[mavracer]

and BTW my coach gun will fire simo IE 2 rounds faster than any auto ever could.

 

[Nolo]

Revolvers are excellent guns when you have to have the gun go off!
As in, a last-ditch weapon. Deep-carry loves revolvers.
Pump shotguns are more reliable than classic autoloading shotguns. I do, however, think that the Saiga autoloaders may eventually obsoletize pumps in military and police applications, just like the 1911 and spawn obsoletized revolvers.
Lever guns are classic, fast and fun. In my opinion, they're not better than modern semiautos, but that doesn't make them unfun to shoot and hunt with. I think they are the most obsolete of all the manual actions.

By the way, I can pump off rounds from my Mossy about as fast as any semiauto shotgun can point and aim. The trick is to try and aim while pumping. It takes practice, but you can get good at it.