Why do so many people complain about magazine disconnects?

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Magazine disconnects have been a Godsend to cops who have had their weapons taken.
The current training is to "Pop the Clip" whenever they feel that they're losing control of the gun. That enables them to keep the playing field a bit more level.

I imagine that it would also be a good thing for the folks who can't remember to check the chamber after dropping the magazine when clearing their weapon for cleaning, etc. For those who can't seem to remember that the magazine comes out first...there's no hope.
 
Try this one on for size. I can't link it because this was a story told in training.

Officer is busting up an after hours party. His partner is rousting the kitchen and back yard nearby. Someone took offense to the party ending and either drunk, or high, or both, I don't remember, lunged for the officer nearest him, tackling him while ripping for his gun. The officer slams his hand down atop the weapon to secure it, trying to extricate himself from the situation and screaming for his partner, who is two rooms away around the corner. The momentum of the attack took the officer off balance and into the front window, where he severely lacerated his right forearm, nicking a tendon in his hand atop the holster to boot.

Pandemonium breaks out and partygoers start fleeing for the front door due to the violence in the living room. The other officer has to wade through a wash of panicked people to assist the attacked officer. Meanwhile that officer is losing the retention battle because his hand is weakened and slicking up with blood. Before the weapon clears the holster and the crazed attacker gains it, the officer hits the mag catch button. The attacker rips the pistol from the holster but the momentum of the tug throws the loosened mag across the room.

Just then, the other officer makes the scene and smashes the suspect's "gun" forearm with a collapsable baton, fracturing it. The suspect drops the gun and the other officer deploys his own handgun and stops the fight.

Now we don't know that the mag disconnect saved this officer's life, but his training to use it kept the bad guy from totally escalating the situation into a crazy shootout in tight quarters where lots of people could have been shot.

Mag disconnects are not a crazy idea for cops because you cannot control every encounter. A sane person can only be wary, but he or she cannot think like a crazy man. Since the unknown is not controllable no matter how many times one tells one's self, "If X happens here's my plan," it is nice to have a last ditch bailout on the weapon, like the mag disconnect.

My academy instructor told us that it was like flying with a parachute on. More officers have been killed by their own weapon than by any lack of shooting back tied to the use of a magazine disconnect.
 
Meanwhile that officer is losing the retention battle because his hand is weakened and slicking up with blood. Before the weapon clears the holster and the crazed attacker gains it, the officer hits the mag catch button.
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So he can't retain his pistol, he can't get in aimed generally at the jackass trying to steal it, he is losing the battle because he is injured and has a blood-slick hand ... but he can hit a 1/2" wide button while wrestling for his gun? I'm not convinced. Sounds like marketing for a manufacturer of magazine-interlocked pistols.

Even without a magazine interlock, dropping the mag leaves the person attempting to steal your gun with a unfamiliar single-shot pistol, while you go through a practiced drill drawing a BUG and firing, or deploying a baton/pepper spray/attack bear/whatever. If training to the level of hitting a 1/2" button blind while struggling for a pistol is happening already, it would logically extend to the next step, which is neutralizing the person who just took your gun and plans to use it.
 
he can't retain his pistol, he can't get in aimed generally at the jackass trying to steal it, he is losing the battle because he is injured and has a blood-slick hand ... but he can hit a 1/2" wide button while wrestling for his gun? I'm not convinced. Sounds like marketing for a manufacturer of magazine-interlocked pistols.
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Even so, I know two WSPD officers for whom it happened just that way...except for the blood-slicked hands.

Even without a magazine interlock, dropping the mag leaves the person attempting to steal your gun with a unfamiliar single-shot pistol,
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No. They're left with a possibly unfamiliar no-shot pistol. The function of the magazine dsconnect is to render the pistol non-shootable...even with a round in the chamber.
 
No, WITHOUT a mag interlock, a magazine-less pistol has a maximum of ONE shot. I was discussing the same training applied to a pistol without the M.I.

Answer me this, why should my Ruger mkIII have a M.I.? Are there a lot of retention battles over target/hunting rimfire pistols, or is it just a lawyer-added "safety" device?
 
No, WITHOUT a mag interlock, a magazine-less pistol has a maximum of ONE shot. I was discussing the same training applied to a pistol without the M.I.
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Ah! I thought the topic was complaints about pistols WITH the disconnect.

Still...A lost single-shot pistol is better than a lost 15 shot pistol. Wouldn't ya say?
 
That was exactly what I was saying, Tuner.
Manufacturers are adding the M.I. "feature" to pistols in response to a demand created by apocryphal stories and requirements of the gun-control-happy states.
If an department really wanted to have a pistol that wouldn't fire if lost, they could issue a lanyard equipped model that couldn't be easily taken away, or go for the old idea of a gun that only fires when gripped with a magnetic ring. The magazine interlock is a lousy answer to a rare problem, and it still adds delicate moving parts that mate up with the most easily damaged part of the pistol.

Personally, I won't buy anything other than a range toy with M.I. ... and I've been extremely happy with the removal of the "feature" on my Rugers. The mags now drop free, the trigger is crisper, I can strip and rebuild the pistols without having a magazine at the table, and I removed a failure point.
 
I guess we should just concede that you are, or would be, Officer Clark Kent in a struggle and be done with this topic.

I, speaking only for myself, don't really care whether you "buy it." Ruger autos suck, so have at them. The mag disconnect on S&Ws is about as invisible to trigger performance as they can be made and they were introduced on their original auto pistol line as an officer safety feature waaaaaay before any meaningfully organized gun control took the scene. The S&W Model 59, widely adopted by police agencies in its heyday, was introduced to the public in 1970.

You can call the continued presence of such devices as sops to anti-gun pols and states, but that doesn't jibe with reality.

The BHP had one from its introduction in 1935. S&W built them in the 70s for officers who could have these "BS" gun retention fights and still have a chance at not being killed with their own weapon. S&W offers an MD option to this day on the M&P, but not because of antis.

Ruger probably has one on target .22lrs because a lot of noobs will buy those to get started shooting and that group isn't known for best safety practices.

Given all of the NDs from Glocks while "cleaning" them, those pistols should have one.;)
 
An entertaining thread. I just never understood why anyone would want to have to pull a mag out of the gun during a rapid magazine change when a 1911 just drops it. I find it intensely annoying. To each his own I guess, I've removed the MS from many guns.
 
A magazine disconnect and a magazine brake are two different "features." The presence of one does not mean the presence of the other.

S&Ws with a mag disconnect drop their mags free. CZ-75s have a mag brake, but no magazine disconnect.
 
"...cops who have had their weapons taken..." Operator failure, a lack of training and/or a bad holster. Has nothing whatever to do with the issue handgun.
The only reason the BHP has the mag safety is because it was a European quirk. FN refused to build the pistol without it. John Browning didn't include it. Dieudonné Joseph Saive was told to put it in. Removing it doesn't do anything except reduce the trigger pull and allows the mag to drop out under its own weight.
 
My take on it is there can be situration where it would be good to have on and then there can be those times when it would be bad. I would never dismiss a weapon if it had one but I don't look at it for a must have thing. Just whatever you feel good with.

be safe
 
A magazine disconnect and a magazine brake are two different "features." The presence of one does not mean the presence of the other.

S&Ws with a mag disconnect drop their mags free. CZ-75s have a mag brake, but no magazine disconnect.
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That may be so, but I can tell you for a fact that many magazine "safeties" by their very function prevent the mag from dropping out freely as a byproduct of their design, it's not intentional as far as I can see, instead the "safety" (which is what some manufacturers call it in their literature) senses the presence of a magazine by means of a spring, which spring impedes dropping the magazine.

The difference between a Star S model and an SS model is a good example, the S drops it's mag, while the SS doesn't because of the "safety's" drag.
 
Because Ruger is the most politically correct firearms manufacture.
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True, at least there I found an aftermarket bushing* to easily remove the silly M.I. from my favorite .22 range pistol.
The Ruger internal lock isn't that bad, but it implies some seriously stupid gun handling practices, just like the M.I. ... with those devices, it is apparently OK to leave a pile of loaded guns in the same room with unsupervised incompetents, because "they're locked" or "the mags aren't inserted".

*If Ruger had made it an option, or if they made it a part to simply remove ... then I wouldn't be annoyed about it. But that particular mag interlock functions through a lever that the mag pushes up, which acts as a mag brake in addition to disabling the sear by means of a slotted device pivoting on the same pin as the hammer. So you need something to take up the space that device occupied, or the hammer doesn't pivot correctly.

I guess we should just concede that you are, or would be, Officer Clark Kent in a struggle and be done with this topic.
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I never claimed that, and I admit that self-defense scenarios are not the same as police scenarios. I have no reason to allow a threat into grappling range, while the police may have to subdue/cuff someone. That doesn't change the fact that most guns come equipped with a felon repulsion lever, which is a lot easier to use than a mag drop button/lever. (the Walther P99/PPS lever would be easier to hit than a 1/2" button, if one were losing their gun) Add in that cops tend to work in pairs anyway, and the advantages of a mag interlock are shown to be negligible, while the disadvantages are significant (gun is worthless during a reload, interlock can fail, some hamper magazine drop). If the gun-control compliant states continue to demand the interlock on guns sold to the general public, soon there will only be antiques sold without the "feature". I remember another gun-control measure that made older mags much more useful than new mags, remember when 11-round magazines were banned?
 
To the contrary, one may also argue that during a struggle for the gun, the officer tried to fire a shot, but couldn't because the magazine was accidentally dropped rendering the gun useless.
 
I have a Star MOD 30 MI that came with a magazine safety. I love the pistol but Star mags are a real problem to find. But, S&W 59 series mags (very common) will work with the mag safety/disconnect removed. Now, I'm swimming in mags, and for cheap, too.

The proper way to clear a gun is not to drop the mag and do nothing further. Any reliance on a mag safety is unsafe; one has to know how one's tools function.
 
If you have time to drop the mag, you have time to pull the trigger.


Yes you can pull the trigger if the gun is pointed in a proper direction. You can hit the magazine release if the gun is pointed in any direction.
 
And if the muzzle crosses a family member in the struggle?
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Once again, we fire before a threat has a hand on our pistol. If you want to make up situations in which you are in a gunfight and you don't want your gun to shoot, have fun. I'll put that in the class of interlocks designed to keep the gun from firing when submerged in pureed skunk.
How about avoiding the struggle, or not deploying a firearm if you are planning a wrestling match? I'm not some ITG or wannabe cop planning on pulling a BUG or batoning (can I verb that noun?) a "perp" after he takes my gun and can't fire it, because ha-ha, I dropped the mag while we were fighting over the gun! If I ever have to use my CC, I intend for the situation to be over before there is a wrestling match, or a struggle over my gun. If I were to end up fighting over my own gun, I'm not going to waste effort attempting to drop the mag, I'm going to put 100% into retention and firing as the muzzle sweeps my assailant. Hell, I may have to make an attempt to prevent a mag drop, the PPS has a really easy to activate mag drop lever under the trigger.
As someone with an interest in active self-defense I'm not going to let someone grab me, my loved ones, or my gun. If someone manages to hurt me with my CC pistol, it will be because they stole it before I had it in hand, or because they beat me with an empty gun. Don't get into the personal space of those who would do you harm. And before someone pipes up with "you don't know who is going to do you harm", if you have your CC pistol out you should have a pretty good idea of who intends to harm you already.
 
bigfatdave, none of my guns have magazine disconnects. I don't see the point for me and agree that I don't see a purpose for them on concealed carry guns. When I was in law enforcement our issued gun did not have a magazine disconnect either.

However, to address a few of the points raised (both by you and others, and I understand that you were referring mainly to non-police situations):

How about avoiding the struggle, or not deploying a firearm if you are planning a wrestling match?
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"...cops who have had their weapons taken..." Operator failure, a lack of training and/or a bad holster.
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If you have time to drop the mag, you have time to pull the trigger.
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I did a lot of hand to hand training with a police gun belt on. No matter how aware you are of your surroundings, you really don't have eyes in the back of your head. The "breaking up the party" scene described above is a good one. Lots of people around.

Our duty holster had a retention loop that you rocked down and forward to release. If someone tried to grab my gun, which was common in training, I could reach across with my left hand and block the retaining strap from traveling forward while delivering elbows with my right arm. This maneuver kept the gun safely in the holster, where the trigger was guarded, though all of the wrestling and rolling around.

While the gun was holstered, I could have easily dropped the magazine. It would have done me little good to do so, because our guns didn't have a magazine disconnect, but the point is that there are times for a cop when, no matter what you train and how aware you are, someone might get a hand on your gun without you having access to the trigger. If you had a magazine disconnect, it could be useful in that situation.

Keep in mind that these training scenarios were often 3 or 4 on 1, full contact with guys in red man suits. At some point most students had their gun taken away, usually after several minutes (it doesn't sound long, but feels like an eternity) of fighting. If a cop saw that he was outnumbered and that he was likely to lose his weapon (4 guys pulling your wrists away from your holster will usually get the job done) he could be saved by a magazine disconnect. Planing on emptying your magazine via the trigger isn't always an option.

All that said, I'm glad our didn't have them, and I don't personally want them on my guns, but they can serve a valid purpose for law enforcement.
 
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Bigfatdave, I wanna ride with you. Such sensory acuity is rare when no one can surprise you.

That said, I like 'em all, with the mag interrupter (thanks to the eight recorded saves the ISP had in their first year with the Smith model 39) or without.

There are retention problems when you don't have them (besides, it's not giving up your neutered weapon if you have a backup, or a knife), there are serious problems if you're interrupted mid reload, as you sagely pointed out.

I don't see the vitriol against, since many are easily removed.
 
DougDubya, riding with me would be boring. I'm not broadcasting the presence of a CCW, and even if someone did try to steal it, they would have to reach under a shirt. I'll admit, getting into a grapple with me is probably less appealing to many than getting into a grapple with Officer Pencilneck, and that might color my opinions somewhat. Open carry is a whole different story, and being a cop even more so ... if someone wants a mag interlock, that's fine, but manufacturers and gun control lobbies forcing them on the general public under the guise of a "safety device" promotes unsafe handling/storage, and actually promotes cops giving up their weapon in a struggle, and then relying on a M.I. to protect them as a criminal points the gun at them and pulls the trigger! Those are a few sources of vitriol, the rest comes from having a pistol with major problems be cured by removal of the M.I. and a LCI, neither of which had any business being there, except as a appeasement of the Brady Bunch.

As far as the Smith model 39 saving officer's lives due to having a mag safety, that sounds like incredible marketing inflation of a few lucky saves. I still argue that if a mag interlock is good, a lanyard-based interlock would be superior, as it would require no active involvement of the officer to disable his/her weapon as it was taken away.
 
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