why do the "experts" like the 870 over the mossberg 500?

[Navy joe]

Aluminum doesn't rust, so less rust=less chance of it failing.

Huh? Doesn't rust? As in doesn't produce iron oxide because there is no iron in it? I'll buy that. However it CORRODES like nobody's business. With good surface protection it will be fine, get a corrosive agent, like salt water, inside at uncoated wear areas and see what happens.

Aluminum v. Steel is the issue. As Dave noted the 870 may see 4 times the service life. I can't think of any alloy framed firearm that lasts as long as the steel counterpart.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, my old Revelation is still going. I know, while I owned it, it hunted HARD every season and did doves as well. That's before I got my Winchester. It's something around 50 years old now and still going strong, never needed service in MY hands. So, I guess that's not long enough. 4 times that will get ya 200 years of service. Since I don't plan on living 200 years, the Mossberg's other virtues will win ME over. And, I mean, it's still a good gun. It ain't wore out, yet. Even if it only lasted 25 years, buying a new shotgun every 25 years ain't hard to justify considering how hard they get used firing heavy 3" loads and playing in the salt water.

Ir I wanted a steel receiver, I'd get a Browning, because the BPS has no shell elevator in the way of loading and it don't have that stinkin' crossbolt safety, which sucks. I love the BPS action, too, smooth right out of the box. My Mossberg is well broken in, though, with 20 years of use.

 

[ruger357]

Have owned both, liked the 500 but love the 870. I traded my 500 18 years ago for a 870 and have never looked back.

 

[MCgunner]

I've owned one wingmaster and shot 870s others owned. I've never seen the worshippers of the 870 like seem to be on this board. They have always been considered cheap, but effective pump guns, like the Mossberg, amongst my friends. It's an NEF that shoots more than once. Most of my friends hunt with other brands, Benelli, Browning, Beretta, Franchi, and such. Most are duck hunters/dove hunters, about all there is around here other than quail. Quail hunters prefer twice pipes, as do I for that type of hunting. I've used the 870 and my 500s in the marsh just because they're cheap and effective and you don't really want a nice shotgun in the salt marsh. Replacing a POS 870 or 500 isn't a big deal compared to replacing a Citori or something when it gets too rusty to look at. My camo finished Mossy has held up rather well for 20 years now, though, very tough finish. A couple of my friends love their 835 ultimags, but I don't need no stinkin' 3.5" gun.

All this 870 worship and it wasn't even designed by John Browning.....Amazing....

 

[October]

The reasons include durability. Working life seems to be around 250K rounds. The Mossberg 500 runs maybe 65K.

What's the source of this information?

 

[Striker]

This is beginning to sound like a 9mm vs .45 ACP debate.

In addition to what Dave has already mentioned I'll add the following: 870s are available in a wide variety of specific models for most any shotgunning need you might encounter. WM, SP, Express, Tgt TB, Target Skt, TGT SC, HD, Police, Marine, and proabably a half dozen other models that I'm forgetting. (Ever see a dedicated off the rack 500 Trap or Skeet gun? ).

I prefer an 870 over a 500/590, and a Ford over a Chevy too, for whatever that's worth. You ask my opinion and that's what I'll tell you, with no need to apologize. I have broken a 500 (maybe it was a lemon) but I have never broken an 870. But like I said get what you want, because I wont denigrate your choice. But I'll always have a spare 870 to lend out if the need arises.

I've never seen the worshippers of the 870 like seem to be on this board. They have always been considered cheap, but effective pump guns.....

Price an 870 Wingmaster Deluxe or TGT TB trap lately?

Quail hunters prefer twice pipes, as do I for that type of hunting....

Depends on where you hunt I guess. Me and most the guys I hunt with, prefer a quick handling pumpgun (870 Special Field or Ithaca Featherweight) for tight holding birds over dogs.

Bottom line though is get what you like and BA/UU/R....

 

[Regolith]

Probably because the experts aren't left handed and neve tried to load an 870 with heavy winter gloves on.

That's funny. I'm left handed, and seem to be able to operate the cross bolt safety just fine. Hell, switching it so that it would "work for a lefty" would screw me up, because I'm so used to using cross bolt safeties on right handed guns.

I don't seem to have any trouble loading it, either. Heavy winter gloves or no.

I handled both the Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 when I was trying to choose between them for a shotgun. While I do prefer the slide release of the Mossberg 500, that's about the only thing I liked about it over the 870. The 870 was more solid, smoother, and pointed better for me. So that's what I bought.

 

[amprecon]

I have owned my 12 gauge 870 Express longer than any other firearm I have. Almost everything else I've had has been sold, traded, rebought, resold, etc., etc. But I have never had a reason to do that with the 870, it has been the quintessential pump shotgun for me.

My huntin' buddy used the Mossy, I used the 870, he killed things, I killed things, they both worked. He liked his, I liked mine. I didn't want his, he didn't want mine. They are both good shotguns, if it's what you get and you like it, it'll be what you keep.

I went shopping for a shotgun at K-Mart a long time ago, in Virginia Beach as a matter of fact, of the different offerings they had on display, I liked the looks and feel of the 870 and it came home with me, eventually. I had to put it on layaway because the Navy didn't pay enough for me to buy it outright at the time.

Same for my hunting rifle, when I went shopping for one, I picked up the Winchesters, Brownings, Tikkas, Weatherbys (although I couldn't afford those two), Remingtons and Savages. I liked the Remington and it went home with me and all was well in my universe.

 

[throdgrain]

My huntin' buddy used the Mossy, I used the 870, he killed things, I killed things, they both worked. He liked his, I liked mine. I didn't want his, he didn't want mine. They are both good shotguns, if it's what you get and you like it, it'll be what you keep.

Amen

 

[RyanM]

However it CORRODES like nobody's business. With good surface protection it will be fine, get a corrosive agent, like salt water, inside at uncoated wear areas and see what happens.

Aluminum corrodes since when? Try putting some salt water in an old pop can. See how many centuries it takes before the can starts leaking. And that's with a paper-thin can. Maybe you're mistaking dried salt deposits for corrosion.

Aluminum oxide sticks to the metal underneath, and protects it from further corrosion. It's also considerably harder than pure aluminum, and protects the metal from scratches. It's like if steel naturally "rusted" into black iron oxide (bluing) rather than red oxide. Anodized aluminum is purposely "corroded" to a greater degree, so that the oxide layer is thicker, mostly for scratch resistance.

Anyway, I like Mossbergs better. Tang safety (I'm right handed, too, but I still hate crossbolts), elevator won't pinch thumb, lighter, action lock lever is easier both to reach and to push, and there's no lock. I will never own a gun with a lock on it, even if it's just a range toy.

 

[Dave McCracken]

October, the 65K estimate was from a couple of the smiths that post here. The 250K is from common knowledge among trapshooters.

Lots of 870s in trap grades are out there. Few have ever worn out, even with six digit round counts. Around 250K, the receivers start cracking around the ejection port.

And again, both of these FINE shotguns have plenty of happy owners.

If all I had was a Mossberg pump, I'd still be well armed....

And MC, back when I did 3 gun, weak hand shotgun COFs saw me hit the thing with my thumb, and some of my times were as good as when I shot from the right side. More practice would have improved it further, IMO.

 

[MCgunner]

Range shooting is one thing, Dave. You're expecting and ready for the shot. You're not ankle deep anchored in mud, gun in the crook of your arm, checking your watch when the bird comes flying in over the grass. Well, you get the idea. Hunting is not the clean environment that games on the range are. Neither is combat, I would imagine.

It may be that I've used the tang safety on my old double until they passed the steel shot laws, then got a Mossberg with a tang safety. I'm just so used to it. But, I really prefer it to the crossbolt on my Winchester which requires cradling the trigger guard in my hand while I reach under and kick the safety off with an index finger. The tang, I can kick it off with the thumb as I shoulder the weapon, much faster and requiring much less fumbling around.

If I see the bird coming and have time to kick that safety off before the bird sets into the deeks, I have time, but sometimes, many times you get surprised.

Yeah, cold wet thumb shoving a round up into that 870 hurts like hell when it pinches. Many times I've yanked my thumb out before the round clicked into the magazine, cussing, and it shot under the shell elevator tying up the gun. I'd have to dig out my pocket knife and work the shell back into the magazine. Do it with heavy gortex/thinsalate gloves on and it pinches the loose end of the glove finger and you have to work it down and get the glove out, irritating. I've found neoprenes work a little better, but not always effective, either. D

Duck hunting is cold and wet. I don't shoot skeet, I couldn't care less about clays, I hunt ducks. These are birds that live in the marsh an the season is in the winter when, even in south Texas, it can get cold. That's what I do with shotguns, I hunt ducks and geese. Okay, doves, I hunt doves, too. The crossbolt safety is less of a pain on doves because if I ain't half asleep, I usually see the little buggers comin'. And, the shell elevator is no big deal because dove hunting is in September and October when it's 90+ degrees down here and my thumb isn't numb from the cold and I'm not wearing gloves.

I may get a BPS someday, but in 20 years I haven't even close to worn out the Mossberg. Figure I may hunt 10-12 days a season, maybe, fire maybe 15 rounds average between geese and ducks. Even if you do a couple of dozen dove hunts with the same gun, how long is it going to last at that rate even though I'm firing 3" magnum heavy steel shot exclusively in the gun? I dove hunt with either my Winchester or one of my side by sides, only use the Mossberg for waterfowl. The Winchester is a gas operated auto and that's nice on my shoulder when I'm burning up rounds on dove. Most shotgunners, hunters anyway, don't see 250K rounds in a lifetime even if they shoot a round of clays now and then. We're not all Olympic trap and skeet champions. Most of us just shoot birds.

Actually, if I replace that 500 for waterfowling, it'll probably be with a Mossberg 935, tang safety, ya know. Crossbolt safeties suck. Did I mention that?

 

[Dave McCracken]

MC, I've been known to have my boots buried in cold swamp up past the tops while I thumbed more shells into divers 870s.

Individual physiognomies differ. I've never gotten the pinch you mention and had been using 870s extensively for more than 20 years before being told they could be jammed with a shell behind the carrier.

And there's still some shells out there I dropped. Neither the safety nor the carrier caused that. I did, through utter clumsiness. Had I a Mossberg, it still would have happened.

As for lasting, I'll wager the usual flagon of mead that most shotguns get less than 5K shells through them. Think about it.

Dove season opens, and the flat of shells you bought still has a couple boxes left when the season closes. Pheasant season sees less than two boxes worth and the same for ducks.

A couple sessions of pasture clays see another 200 shells fired.

A good season, less than 500 rounds used. But that's out of a 1400, a pair of SxS bird guns and less than 50 rounds through your Mossie.

At that rate, your grandkids may find the Mossie getting a little loose....

 

[dstorm1911]

Neither...... Win 1300 Deffenders, the Mossy tang safty becomes a liability if fitted with Enidine Shot shock (mercury recoil buffer collapsable stock tube) and pistol grip and collapsable stock for use with body armor, same problem with the Knox cop stock in either case ya must remove your hand from either the pistol grip or the slide to activate/deac the tang safty no such problem with crossbolt safties........

The thread was in regard to military choice for a scattergun (at least through the references to the Marines choosing it) last I knew the military seldom use their scatterguns for shooting clays or quail or ducks when considering a shotgun so every point made so far regarding these situations would really have absolutely no bearing upon the question posed whatsoever...... if your not setting up the Shotty for use in a combat type scenario then ya would have nothing to contribute regarding ergonomics etc... as it applies to strictly trap/hunting experience only

Now if your discussing actual combat environmental variables, combat ergonomics issues, combat related reliability issues then you would be in line with what the OP requested in way of information......

The one issue I have concern with in regards to an aluminum recievered shotty is the same issue with an aluminum recievered carbine or rifle (and remember I prefer yet another al. recievered scatter gun) The effects of abrasives such as sand inside of the reciever (I live where they torture test military vehicles/weapons Arizona as our sand is the most abrasive available in the USA) it will effect an aluminum reciever faster than it will a steel reciever if neglected creating galling and excessive clearance issues, the military in Afghanistan and Iraq don't spend much time in swamps so reliability or usability would be of little concern there, not much salt water time either so that issue is off the table, they do however spend alot of time in sand....

Cost has little to do with anything purchased by the military afterall look at the main battle rifle we have fielded.... when a super low cost AK variant is actually better suited to the battlefield we are predominantly fighting in these days, yet we are still fielding a MBR that costs 12 times as much as whats needed so I doubt a $5 difference per gun is going to carry much weight however what does carry some weight is the standard requirement for a manually operated AMBIDEXTROUS SAFETY its the very first requirement for all small arms submitted for trials its one of the things that kept Glocks and XDs out of the trials for a sidearm and as the Mossy is the only game in town with a truly Ambidextrous Safety makes it the instant winner , switchable etc.. isn't a concern it has to be universally Ambidextrous as far as durability testing 5,000 rnds without failure is it... well within the limits of the Mossy especially as all the competitors in the pump gun arena are out of the running over a mechanical Ambi safety issue right from the start.. its also WHY if ya go back to the 70s when they first developed the 590 (simply a militerized 500, reinforced reciever, bayo lug, extended magazine otherwise its the same gun) they were approached by the military in the first place because of their Ambi safety being the only one on the market

 

[tdultima]

All advantages are subjective.

Mossberg 500 advantages:

1. The "only" pump action shotgun ever to pass all U.S. Military MilSpec-3443E standards. The Remington 870 was not submitted to the military for the trials.

2. Tang safety.

3. Dual extractors.

4. "Anti-jam" elevator.

5. Simple fixed ejector.

6. Aluminum receiver is lighter and doesn't rust.

7. Low price.

Remington 870

1. Steel receiver is stronger.

2. Quality is higher with Wingmaster/Police (You get what you pay for).

 

[pete f]

my problem with 500's are the attachment points of the action bars to the little ring that the forearm is attached to.

They fail, more than you realize, but they fail, if you get one with a good rivet job or spot weld, they last a long time, but I have seen many fail.

I have never seen a moderately clean 870 fail. I have seen some come in with so much gunk in them that the ejector finally breaks, but thats an easy rivet job and the guns back working in a day. If you keep the area behind the ejector clean, it will last darn near for ever. I have seen 870's at the half million mark, as well as a few 1100's that old, and after you see that, you go OK, they got the design right.

Mossbergs just feel clunky and cheap in my hands.

 

[sm]

Not an expert.

First off there were no Mossbergs around when I was coming up.

I grew up with Winchesters and Ithacas. Remington came much later around my neck of the woods.
My buds in 'Nam used Ithaca 37, Win 97 and Model 12s.

My serious home and competition guns, I/we removed safeties on purpose on many , and we ran hot ranges and 3 Rules of Gun Safety were adhered to.

Now I personally prefer the safety location on a Win over a Rem.
This is what I grew up with, top tang were for double guns like SxS, O/U, and Dangerous Big Game Rifles.

Lots of safeties removed on Shotguns that broke open, we competed and hunted like this...again 3 Rules of gun safety...
First damn thing we always did/do was take care of automatic safety on break open guns...

Mossberg: only damn Mossberg I recall growing up, was a pistol.

870s are fine, then again I have no problem with a Win SX1 , or Beretta 303, gas gun ...

...or a Youth Single Shot 20 ga, which is what I do keep handy with slugs...

I run a gun stock, I do not want any accessories, just how raised, what you do.

 

[wideym]

I was amazed when my unit was depolying to Iraq that the supply sgt went to Walmart with a GSA credit card and purchaced several Mossberg 500As for us. They worked well, expeceally with the abuse they get from urban military ops. I've had a few 500As in my life, they were cheap and well made, but the guys I got them from usually wanted to trade up to 870s.

My uncle gave me a 500A that was given to him, it had been left out doors for a few months, had the barrel sawn off to 18 3/4 inches(luckily), was missing the buttstock, and the forearm was broken. My cousin had a spare set of stocks and forearms(no cost) and Woody at Bullseye leveled the barrel, added a front sight bead, and re-blued the barrel, magazine tube and barrel screw for $40.00. Today is shoots like a dream.

While the same cousin's 870, he had new since age 10, ejector broke and had to be sent to Remington for repair. The repair was free but he had to pay for the shipping and the dealer.

Personally I see very little differece between the two. Each is pretty reliable and inexpensive, which is all that counts.

 

[1911 guy]

I prefer Mossberg. They're a bit lighter, load easier, can be easily unloaded without cycling every round, the safety is positioned for right or left hand use and they point better for me.

 

[ronto]

In addition to all the advantages of the 500 already mentioned, the 870 front site is pressed in and inorder to change it you have to drill and tap a new hole...not to mention the PIA of getting the factory site out.
The 500...just unscrew the old one and screw in the new one.
I don't care about brand names and you can make any shotgun "fit". I base my decisions on practical useage and can see no real advantages of the 870 over the 500.

 

[Creature]

Had both, sold the 870. Kept the 590. Mossberg, IMHO is slightly better engineered of the two. Should have kept the Rem though as a backup.

 

[MCgunner]

Original post.

I have a mossgerg 500, the marines use the 590, so why do all of the civilian "experts" love the 870? Is it better than the 500? if so then why? I don't have a problem with either of them, but I wonder what ya'll think.

Response

The thread was in regard to military choice for a scattergun (at least through the references to the Marines choosing it) last I knew the military seldom use their scatterguns for shooting clays or quail or ducks when considering a shotgun so every point made so far regarding these situations would really have absolutely no bearing upon the question posed whatsoever...... if your not setting up the Shotty for use in a combat type scenario then ya would have nothing to contribute regarding ergonomics etc... as it applies to strictly trap/hunting experience only

So, um, he says he has a 500 and the marines use the 590 and he wants to know why CIVILIAN "experts" like the 870. Where, sir, do you take it that this question is about military use of the Mossberg "shottie". Do you think the second amendment is about the rights of the National Guard, too, just because it says "A well regulated Militia"? And, do the marines really use a pistol grip stock? And, does the military refer to the shotgun as a "shottie"?

"This is my rifle,
this is my gun,
this is for fighting,
this is for fun"

 

[CajunBass]

I bought a Sears/Mossberg back in '75 or '76, mostly because it was cheap.
$99.00 with two barrels. I think the 870 was about twice that back then, but can't say for sure. Of course back then there was no such thing as an 870 Express, just the top of the line model. I've never been disapointed with it. I haven't put thousands of rounds through it, but I used it mostly for deer hunting with buckshot, (never fired the slug barrel to this day) and it did it's job. It's killed ever deer I ever shot at with it, along with a few squirrels, and even a few doves. It's never malfunctioned or had anything at all go wrong with it.

I like the top tang safety, especially at first because I was coming off using a double barrel with a tang safety, but never had any problems with the crossbolt safety on a few Remington 1100's I've owned over the years, or more recently on my Ruger 10/22, or another Sears 200 (Winchester) pump gun I've got. The safety is where the safety is. I'm not left handed, but my Uncle is, and he never had any trouble with the safety on his 1100's or at least I never heard him say anything about it.

I'm no expert, but I like the Mossberg. I suspect I'd like an 870 too if I ever feel the need for one. I'd like to have one in 20 ga.. But another Mossberg would do too.

 

[Big Az Al]

My first repeater was an 870

The first shotgun I bought for myself is a Browning A5, as was the last.

Using almost forty years experience working one firearms, I lean towards the 870, now to make people scream, if it were in production today(maybe it is was or could be) a close second behind the 870 would be tied up with the Moss.500 and the Ithaca 37.

As a smith, I see slightly more moss 500's in for repair then 870's, 37's a somewhere in between.

The ussual Moss 500 repair will be safety related, with some version of the top tang safety breakage being the #1 repair, although the end of the trigger that works on the safety is another common repair. With the slide arm I see more mossberg slide arm repairs then for the 870 but it is a small number and the Moss repair is easier.

As for repair parts Mossberg and Reminton, are readily available, and there are few variations to be awere of.

Someone mentioned the Win 1200/1300 series, you don't quite have to know the day it was made to get correct parts, but it would help! There are many variations on just the ejector, at least two variations of bolt, and I have seen some of the strangest(at least compared to the rem and moss) breakages of parts and assemblies in the winchester series then in my top 3 combined!

 

[Avenger29]

I own an 870, and have run a Maverick 88 (the cheaper version of the 500)

I prefer the 870. While the Maverick with the standard stock didn't feel too bad, I did get to handle a 500 "Homeland Defense" model. It had the extended mag, cheap collapsible stock, optics rail, and some kind of muzzle brake or flash supressor. One of my dealers had two in.

That 500 just felt like a light toy. My 870 feels like a real weapon. I much prefer my 870- it just feels more solid and has less wobble.

If I was going to get a Mossberg, I'd definitley get a 590 variant.

They are both good shotguns, and I'd love to see a design that brought together the best features of both:

1) The safety and action release of the 500/590
2) The shell elevator of the 500/590
3) The steel reciever of the 870
4) The modularity of the 870
5) The "solidness" of the 870
6) The barrel attachment of the 870- I don't like the way the 500 barrel
attaches.
7) The twin extractors of the 500
8) The fixed ejector of the 500
9) And of course, the low price of the 500, with the 870 Police quality...