why do the "experts" like the 870 over the mossberg 500?

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They are both good shotguns, and I'd love to see a design that brought together the best features of both:

Hmm, BPS, tang safety, retracted shell elevator for easy loading, steel receiver, smooth as butta, don't remember the slide release position on it. Definitely, if I were going to spend the money on a "high grade" 870, I'd go Browning. Of course, I'd get a camo gun.
 
This and other Mossie 500 vs Remington 870 threads remind me of the S&W 686 vs Ruger GP100 debates over in the Revolver forum. The lock vs no-lock debate even comes up from time-to-time. I guess that's why a few THR members state they would buy either a new Mossie or used Remington (pre-lock).

I've spoken to enough owners of both makes that I've concluded that either will work fine, just pick what fits best. The S&W 686 worked better for me, so I chose it. The GP100 is still an excellent gun. Like the GP100 vs 686, the 870 may last a bit longer shooting "atomic" loads, but I don't plan on shooting massive amounts of that stuff through my revolvers or shotties. At this point, I'm leaning towards a Mossberg 590 for HD. The control layout and the ergonomics just fit me better than the 870, though I can certainly see why people like their 870s so much. I did however pinch myself years ago loading an 870 once (a wingmaster, I believe), so that did influence my decision a bit too.

True, this was a long time back, and Mossberg surely must have improved the safty, and QC issues long since.

From everthing I have seen, that appears to be the case. As a side note, the range I frequent rents an old Mossberg 88 Maverick. I asked the owner about it and he guessed it has at least 100k rounds through it with nary a glitch. This is just one example, but thought I'd share it.

I was surprised that the Maverick had a crossbolt safety; I thought all Mossberg pumps had a tang safety. BTW, I am with MCGunner on crossbolt safeties ;) .
 
Number one thing, I'm no expert. An expert is a has-been drip under pressure, or somebody with a briefcase who's over a hundred miles from home. :D

Number two thing, you can shoot whatever you want. No skin off my sitter whatever you shoot, brand or type. Your money, your choice- good luck with it.

Pumpguns? I got pumpguns. Mossbergs, Browning, Stevens, Ithaca, Winchester, Remington. I've been shooting pumpguns for almost 40 years now. I LIKE pumpguns. They are an almost uniquely American phenomenon. They are looked down on by bespoke best gun toting titled aristocracy in Europe as "shooting machines." And I like that. Plenty of plain ol' blue collar Americans with pumpguns get a lot more enjoyment out of their time afield than any collection of Eurotrash bluebloods.

It just happens that I am convinced the Remington 870 is the pinnacle of American pumpgun design. I have messed about with most of the offerings on the market, and the 870 tops everything so far in my book. Dave McC ran through a pretty good catalogue of the reasons in his post, no need for me to duplicate them here.

The 870 has a few more age spots and wrinkles than anything else on the market right now as far as pumpguns go. Oh, I know the Chinese are making copies of the old 1897 thumb-buster. That doesn't count, any more than that they are making a knockoff of the 870 (or the Ithaca 37 for that matter). The 870 design has been in production by Remington since early 1950. If it was newly introduced today, the design would still be revolutionary.

The Mossberg 500 hit production in 1961. It's a workmanlike design and has its own set of good features. No one who owns one has anything to complain about. Still, IMHO it just isn't the gun the 870 is.

The main thing for me is that the 870 is so much easier to maintain. It field strips simply and gives easy access to anything likely to need attention. Jumble up the magazine spring on a Mossberg 500, and you have to take off the magazine tube to get to it (a design flaw corrected with the mil-spec 590 series, I might add).

Neighbor's kid came by on the way home yesterday afternoon. He'd been up the road potting doves in a newly-planted wheatfield, and complained that his gun was stiff and hard to pump. Well, he'd gotten the 20 ga. youth model 500 for Christmas a couple of years ago. I don't think it had seen a drop of lube since.

Handiest thing I had was a little fliptop bottle of SLIP 2000, so I dripped a few drops on the bolt races and action bars and racked the gun a few times and gave it back. He pronounced himself satisfied but wondered if he should take it apart for a good cleaning. I advised him against it, since the left shell stop almost invariably falls out when the trigger group is removed. I didn't want him wondering what went where when he got back to reassembly.

A working gun should be tough, reliable, easy to clean and maintain. That's the very definition of an 870 IMHO. That's why I like 'em better than any other design out there. About the only thing you can do to take down an 870 for the count is to crunch the magazine tube- then it needs factory level attention for the fix (which is why us oldpharts keep telling noobs to use clamps on their magazine extensions.) Almost everything else is a relatively simple fix.

870s are the Energizer Bunny of pumpguns. They wear IN, they don't wear out. Most American law enforcement agencies buy 870s when they need shotguns. They are easy to clean, easy to fix on the rare occasions when they break, easy to shape-shift to fit whatever task they need to perform (from breaching to birds to grizzly bears to burglars). They're my favorite, pure and simple.

Hope that helps,

dd
 
Actually, my grandpa's version of the "all American shotgun" was the Parker and especially the LC Smith. He used to talk a lot about LC Smith shotguns and the one he had. He had a Wingmaster 20 gauge at the time. But, if you go back before the war, WW2, in America, the side by side was the king of the sporting guns. And, I can pull the barrels off my side by sides in a few seconds. I never took a receiver apart, though, don't really wanna do that. I have an old Sarasqueta Spanish built 12 I bought new in 1971. It's been through hell and back from about 1971 to 81 shooting 3" goose loads and banging around in boats and I've never had a problem with it, though it's beat up looking now, sadly, because it was a fine looking gun when it was new.

So, my vote for easy to clean is my side by sides. One of 'em's a Remington.......Spartan, okay, maybe that don't count. It's definitely a working man's gun, though, not something English aristocracy would be interested in, ROFLMAO!!!!!

This thread has been quite enjoyable. Folks might think I'm serious, but I really just prefer the Mossberg and enjoy the argument. 870s have been around forever and they shoot fine if you prefer 'em. I really don't want one. In pump guns, I would enjoy a BPS and an Ithaca featherweight, okay it's got that dreaded crossbolt safety, but I have a spot in my heart for one someday. I'd want a 16 gauge just like my uncle's I used to borrow.
 
I think its the fact that an 870 is pretty much an 870. I think there are some differences in the police 870s though.

You can buy an 870 at wal mart, and get anything you need out of brownells to make it the ubertactical wet dream of any mall ninja. The only thing you have to worry about is bbl finish and caliber. Mossberg has four different mag tubes for their 12 guage guns, and they all use different bbls.

Remington's use of one mag tube (or two, if the police models are different) for the 870 makes it cheaper to make parts to fit it, therefore the 870 has more aftermarket support, therefore its more popular to buy. I couldnt count how many time's I've seen mossberg lose a sale to remington because you can add capacity to the 870, so I think that aftermarket support has a direct effect on it.

Its the same with cars. The most popular cars at your dragstrip are either imports, since their aftermarket exploded after the fast and the furious came out, and of course Mustangs and F body GMs, since these were the first affordable cars that got fast during the 80s when Detriot was learning how to make horsepower with the emissions requirements that they didnt have 20 years before.

And to add to page one, I also hate crossbolt safeties. If I was right handed, that might no be the case. Since I'm wrong handed, I prefer my mossberg, mainly due to its tang mounted safety.
 
I guess that's why a few THR members state they would buy either a new Mossie or used Remington (pre-lock).

Remington stopped installing the J-Lock safeties about a year ago. :D

Now, if only S&W would take the hint....
 
Remington stopped installing the J-Lock safeties about a year ago.

Now, if only S&W would take the hint....

Ah, I do recall that now ... thanks for the gentle slap upside the noggin. Wasn't like that was the dealbreaker for me, I just prefer the feel of the Mossie.

Yeah, I too wish Smith would pick up on that little hint.

McGunner,

I too have enjoyed reading this thread. Very informative, and I'm glad it has stayed polite and civil.
 
Mossberg 500 reliability

I am a memeber of an US Army repair team (SARET-R Small Arms Readiness Evaluation Team - Repair) I have encountered hundreds of Mossberg 500 shotguns that have been used in combat and they are holding up with excellent colors, There are very few (codeouts) weapons that can't be repaired. the most common failures are non authorized parts (1) bead sight broken(2) and the safety missing the detent ball (3) barrels damaged from being shot too close to hinges or locks (4) (barrels get split muzzle or bulged barrel from this.) While I would agree that other brands of shotguns look far superior in construction, I would say that most have not been submitted to blowing locks and hinges off of doors. most of these 500's show very poor operator maintenance and still function properly completely filled with Iraqi sand. (be it all not very easily)

I bought a Mossberg 500c for my kids many years ago and it held up to numerous abusive encounters during hunting, when the boys were hunting.

For the price the Army can't beat them they come with a pistol grip, non vent rib barrel, sling, cleaning kit (wich very few soldiers use in my opinion) and other accesories included in the box. for as far as repair goes it actually cost more to repair one than to throw it away and replace it. The Army pays around 150.00 for each weapon with the accessories

I still love my 1100 and 870 Remingtons but I will also be using my mossberg 500 for many years to come.

Robert E. Boulanger
BTW most soldiers seem to worry more about loosing a Mossberg 500 than their M4 or M16A2 which are more easy to get ahold of. and some of these are obviously wal-mart (civilian versions) from their serial numbers. (Army contract purchased 500's have US before the serial number civilian purchased don't.
 
I own the 500 and I've shot the 870. Both are nice shotguns and the only reason I like the 500 more is because I am left handed. The fact that my dad has a mossberg somewhat influenced my choice for a shotgun too i suppose.
 
I have never seen a moderately clean 870 fail.

Interestingly enough I have seen a couple fail in combat and several while hunting back in the 60's. The 870 used to have the ability to "double Shuck" shells. In fact at one time Remington split the lifter so the shooter could use his knife blade to get the extra shell out. At the time they considered that as a model improvement. I didn't.

While hunting your weapon jamming is a PIA, in combat it was deadly. The good news is there weren't many Remington 870's in Vietnam. I personally never used a shotgun, but some around me did. They would trade out the Remington as soon as possible. Get a Savage, Winchester, Ithaca (my favorite of the time), Stevens, and some earlier model Remingtons too. I don't ever remember seeing a Mossberg 500 over there either. I liked the solid brass shells we used over there too.

The safety switch on the Mossy is a problem. I use a 590 now and replaced my safety switch with the less than $10.00 solid steel one sold by Brownell's right after getting the gun. That was a bunch of years ago. Prior to that I would just use one of my side by sides.

I have heard that Remington has finally made the 870 safe for combat. I don't know when they finally fixed them, but I presume they have.

Remington's are pretty and they feel good, but I have always considered reliability as the singularly most important aspect of any fighting firearm. For play or sport, it doesn't really matter. Besides I prefer side by sides for sport.

I don't march to the guns anymore. But I stick with my old reliable 590 and doubles. The 590 ain't fancy it only goes bang everytime the trigger is pulled.

Go figure.

Fred
 
I love my 500. it is clear that they are both fine weapons. I am going to get an 870 soon. I also plan on testing the so -called greatness of the ar platform, with a S&W mp. happy hunting!
 
I have a mossberg 500 which is just fine. It was free so what the heck.

If I were to buy a new shotgun I'd opt for the 870. I just wish it had the mossberg safety - located where it should be.
 
I lean toward the 870 over the 500 because I have seen used Mossbergs at gun shows that had a broken safety. I have heard it's an easy fix, but I have never seen a broken 870.

As far as the safety location goes, I do not TRUST a safety, so I never use it. On any gun.

If I am in a situation where I don't think I can maintain trigger discipline, I simply take the round out of the chamber. It's pretty simple to reload a pump gun.
 
They are both good shotguns, and I'd love to see a design that brought together the best features of both:

Hmm, BPS, tang safety, retracted shell elevator for easy loading, steel receiver, smooth as butta, don't remember the slide release position on it.

It's difficult to find aftermarket parts for the BPS. The slide release is on the back of the trigger gaurd, but it is like the Winchester 1300, not like the Mossberg. It doesn't stick down far enough, so you HAVE to use your thumb. With the Mossberg, you can reach under with your trigger finger OR use your thumb.

Oh - and the BPS is made O.U.S. 870 and 500 are and always have been made in the USA.:)
 
safety

chieftain, I would have to agree with you on the 500's safety, my 500 suffered the safety malfunction, that is so very common to the mossbergs, and numerous 500's I have repaired have also been afflicted with the safety detent ball escaping from the weapon and rendering the safety near useless.
The army safety has a metal slider but the parts of the safety are exactly the same (the civilian purchased 500's have the plastic slider and the team always converts them to the metal slider), Mainly I think the use of the thin metal plate with the detent holes that is under the slider may be the culprit once the slider screw becomes loosened and helps the detent ball to get moved out of place and freed to the the world it gets lost into LOL.

The one way screw I think also helps in this as most people tend to ignore tightening it, I tend to lock tight this screw when repairing the 500's for the Army as dead safeties on a combat weapon make me very nervous and our soldiers have enough to worry about without having a safety become erratic un-necessarrily. Unfortunately I see very few 590's. I think price and availability may have something to with that.
Robert
 
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I have and shoot both. If I ever fell on hard times and had to sell shotguns off to eat the first to go would be the Mossy's (2), followed by the 870's (3). The Remington 31 would never leave my hands though......
 
Does Mossberg still make a 590 with a bayonet lug? I had one back in 97' or 98', but a guy in my unit offered me $500 for it and I couldn't resist(only paid $250).
 
I had both shotguns (500 and the 870). To me the biggest difference was the fit and finish is better on my 870 than the 500. I sold the 500. When I rack the slide on the 870 it just feels more solid compared to the 500. Other than than, the 500 is a fine shottie.
 
Does Mossberg still make a 590 with a bayonet lug? I had one back in 97' or 98', but a guy in my unit offered me $500 for it and I couldn't resist(only paid $250).
Yes. Mine was about $350, maybe $375 OTD NIB (had him order it for me). I then proceeded to grind the lug off so I could mount a surefire fore end.
 
I lean toward the 870 over the 500 because I have seen used Mossbergs at gun shows that had a broken safety. I have heard it's an easy fix, but I have never seen a broken 870.

As far as the safety location goes, I do not TRUST a safety, so I never use it. On any gun.

If I am in a situation where I don't think I can maintain trigger discipline, I simply take the round out of the chamber. It's pretty simple to reload a pump gun.

All fine and good when it's sitting in your bedroom, but for hunting, you need a safety. Deer hunting, you REALLY need a safety. What do ya think a deer is going to do when you rack the slide? :D Not everyone kills people with a shotgun. I do keep one in the bedroom for home defense, and it is fully loaded with the tang safety on safe. Be slow to load a coach gun if I left it empty.

I never had a problem with the safety on my two 500s. I suppose if you dropped it on the safety , it might break. It could fail, I reckon. If it does, I'll fix it. If I have a problem with the detent ball, I'll just hold it forward while I draw a bead on senior pato, then fix it when I get home.
 
All fine and good when it's sitting in your bedroom, but for hunting, you need a safety. Deer hunting, you REALLY need a safety. What do ya think a deer is going to do when you rack the slide?

I do not use a safety when hunting either. If I am still hunting, standing in a deer stand or sitting on the ground hunting for deer, I have a round in the chamber and my finger off the trigger. If I am climbing, walking in thick brush, coming into camp or if I come upon someone in the woods, I take the round out of the chamber.

I see no need for an "in between" because I do not believe that any safety is truly safe, so why trust it for anything? There is a big exception here with pistols like a 1911 where the robust thumb safety is integral to carrying safely.

To each his own, but I just wanted to point out why the issue of the safety location between the 870 and 500 does not matter to me.
 
I bought my Mossberg 500 from Wal Mart the day I turned 18. I turned 40 two months ago in September-07. LOVE IT!!! SIMPLY LOVE IT!!!
 
My uncle's (married my aunt) brother was climbing through a fence and didn't put the gun though first and the trigger caught a twig. They found him 3 days later with a hole in his back and exit out his chest. Yeah, he didn't put the gun though the fence first, should have unloaded it, and should have had the safety on. You can't be too safe.

I use a safety, I keep my finger off the trigger, AND I am trigger aware. You cannot be too safe with a firearm, there is no such thing as too safe. The safety is just part of the redundancy of safe gun use IMHO.

I'm afraid I wouldn't wanna be in a duck blind with someone that didn't use a safety, either.
 
My personal experience with both push me toward the 870 over any Mossberg.

I used the Mossberg when I was in the Corp(before the War, got out Dec. 2001);
1. Fleet Marine Force Infantry - mainly used for Humanitarian Aid Missions(less-than-lethal purposes for crowd control) and sometimes door breaching.
2. SOTG Direct Action Platoon - mainly used for door breaching.

When I was in the FMF, my junior Marines had a hard time reassembling the Mossberg after cleaning it(setting the bars back in place to get the bolt assembly in). Most of the time, I had to put it back together for them. Especially for them, the Remington would have been easier to field strip and clean. The Mossberg works. For me, I love then Remington better. My buddy had a Mossberg fail on him. I just witnessed a 870 have problems locking up(after round went off, hard to rack a fresh round), he's a gunsmith and never seen that happen before. He said he was going to swap barrels to see if it is something out-of-spec in the chamber area 1st.ANY GUN CAN FAIL!
 
all this discussion about the mossberg, is anyone out thetre interesdin buying a mossberg stainless steel 12 ga with 20' barrel and bothe the shoulder stock and the pistol grip. Fired about three times to test. . I had it on my boat for protection but no longer have a booat.
 
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