The very term "Assault Weapon" is a red herring when you consider that any self loading magazine fed semiautomatic rifle does exactly the same thing.
Why do you need an assault rifle?
- Thread starter LkWinnipesaukee
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Librarian
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We were talking in History class today about the Second Amendment.
So how much time has been given over in your class to discuss the validity of the other amendments in the Bill of Rights? Were they all framed in the context of what you needed today versus what the founding fathers actually intended?
jm
So how much time has been given over in your class to discuss the validity of the other amendments in the Bill of Rights? Were they all framed in the context of what you needed today versus what the founding fathers actually intended?
jm
Well said, everyone. Vern Humphrey, your original post was excellent.
I typically have used the sports car analogy to point out that there are very few true necessities in life. The beauty of a free country is that we have a right to have things without having to demonstrate a need to have those things. True, this response may lead them to dismiss us as "gun nuts", but I agree that there really isn't a response that will alter someone's thinking on this. The best way to alter their thinking is to take them to the range or casually discuss it with them over time. In an acute debate setting, I highly doubt you'll persuade someone as closed-minded as an anti-gunner.
That said, I would also bring up history and how this country was formed by people who won their independence with what would have been deemed "assault rifles" at that time if present day anti-gun politicians were around back then. From there you could explain the basics of firearms to them to disspell some of the myths about "assault rifles" and other firearms. The similarities between our current government and the government against whom we revolted in the 1700s are alarming. You might point some of those out. Bring up the confiscations after Katrina if they use the, "That'll never happen here" argument. Bring up the First Amendment and ask, "Why do you need the right to free speech?" or any other Amendment, for that matter.
As someone mentioned, staying calm and discussing things in general terms is good, especially in light of all the hysteria about school shootings lately. If you spout off at the mouth too much, you'll probably be visited by police, FBI, or Homeland Security!
I typically have used the sports car analogy to point out that there are very few true necessities in life. The beauty of a free country is that we have a right to have things without having to demonstrate a need to have those things. True, this response may lead them to dismiss us as "gun nuts", but I agree that there really isn't a response that will alter someone's thinking on this. The best way to alter their thinking is to take them to the range or casually discuss it with them over time. In an acute debate setting, I highly doubt you'll persuade someone as closed-minded as an anti-gunner.
That said, I would also bring up history and how this country was formed by people who won their independence with what would have been deemed "assault rifles" at that time if present day anti-gun politicians were around back then. From there you could explain the basics of firearms to them to disspell some of the myths about "assault rifles" and other firearms. The similarities between our current government and the government against whom we revolted in the 1700s are alarming. You might point some of those out. Bring up the confiscations after Katrina if they use the, "That'll never happen here" argument. Bring up the First Amendment and ask, "Why do you need the right to free speech?" or any other Amendment, for that matter.
As someone mentioned, staying calm and discussing things in general terms is good, especially in light of all the hysteria about school shootings lately. If you spout off at the mouth too much, you'll probably be visited by police, FBI, or Homeland Security!
Ryder
Member
More like anti-assault weapons. Great home defense tool and having one means there's less probability you'll need to use it. Defensless people are preferred targets for evil doers.
LkWinnipesaukee
Member
We are discussing Article III-VII, and the BoR this week. We talked about them equally until I sidetracked the class on 2A
So it was 1/2 hour today talking about guns. Great class if you ask me.I stand corrected, .223 can be used as a sniper rifle.
I guess my point is the press seemed to vilify the evil AR-15 as a perfect killing machine, where if the dude used a .308 or other high caliber "sniper rifle" he could've done more damage at farther ranges. Don't call that guy a sniper either in front of an old former Army sniper if you don't want to see contempt dripping from every word coming out of his mouth.
What frustrates me is the general public ingnorance concerning semi-auto rifles. You can use them to hunt varmits and deer, shoot, and for defense. Growing up I never saw why people "needed" an assult rifle. Not until I started buying and using guns did I start to think about it and did a 180.
I guess my point is the press seemed to vilify the evil AR-15 as a perfect killing machine, where if the dude used a .308 or other high caliber "sniper rifle" he could've done more damage at farther ranges. Don't call that guy a sniper either in front of an old former Army sniper if you don't want to see contempt dripping from every word coming out of his mouth.
What frustrates me is the general public ingnorance concerning semi-auto rifles. You can use them to hunt varmits and deer, shoot, and for defense. Growing up I never saw why people "needed" an assult rifle. Not until I started buying and using guns did I start to think about it and did a 180.
Waitone
Member
Ding, ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winnah. Next time you are asked the question play Yankee and answer their question with your question, "Help me understand the definition of an "assault rifle". Very quickly the discussion of go away. The question to you was rhetorical and therefore not worth your time in answering because there is no answer. Now if the questioner wants an understanding of the difference between and assault RIFLE (a technically meaningful term) and and assault WEAPON (a propaganda term invented by Josh Sugarman to describe threatening cosmetic features of common rifles) use your time wisely.DMK said:
Low-Sci
Member
"Why do you need X" is a trap question and in a free society where we have rights protected by 2A, its a question we don't have to answer.
The truth is that the burden of proof is on the state to prove why a particular individual shouldn't have one. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way 'round.
The truth is that the burden of proof is on the state to prove why a particular individual shouldn't have one. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way 'round.
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Geronimo45
Member
Why do some people need to buy stamps from Monaco and Sweden? Because they're collectors. Why do they buy vintage cars? Collectors, again.
Why do you need an AR? You're a collector/hobbyist. Some people collect stamps or cars, you collect guns.
An AR-15 is a close cousin to the rifle the American armed forces have used for nigh on to thirty years. It's a way to remember that there are men who are willing to fight and die for others, and to honor the memory of men like that.
You can take a million rifles and study them for a million years apiece to find evil in them. You'll fail miserably. Evil is found in the heart of man, not in the chamber of a gun.
An AR's a sporting tool, like a baseball bat. You can cave someone's head in with a bat, or you can hit a ball with it. With an AR, you can shoot innocent people, or you could shoot pesky critters and paper targets.
An AR's a practical tool, as well. If you need to hunt for food, you could do it. If you need to stop someone who is coming after you to murder you, it could stop them.
Someone termed 'assault rifles' Sport Utility Rifles - a much more accurate name. They're just a regular gun with some added features - capacity, lower recoil, etc.
Why do you need an AR? You're a collector/hobbyist. Some people collect stamps or cars, you collect guns.
An AR-15 is a close cousin to the rifle the American armed forces have used for nigh on to thirty years. It's a way to remember that there are men who are willing to fight and die for others, and to honor the memory of men like that.
You can take a million rifles and study them for a million years apiece to find evil in them. You'll fail miserably. Evil is found in the heart of man, not in the chamber of a gun.
An AR's a sporting tool, like a baseball bat. You can cave someone's head in with a bat, or you can hit a ball with it. With an AR, you can shoot innocent people, or you could shoot pesky critters and paper targets.
An AR's a practical tool, as well. If you need to hunt for food, you could do it. If you need to stop someone who is coming after you to murder you, it could stop them.
Someone termed 'assault rifles' Sport Utility Rifles - a much more accurate name. They're just a regular gun with some added features - capacity, lower recoil, etc.
I've used this exact comparison many times. One could hit a home run with my baseball bat, or one could beat someone into a bloody pulp with it. The difference between those two is the person holding the bat and his/her values & beliefs. Most people would not suddenly become a psychopath and begin beating people if you put a baseball bat in their hands. The same is true of guns. Violence is a human action. Weapons are inanimate objects that can be used as tools to commit violence. Even bare hands can be used to commit violent acts.
I also view target shooting as being analagous to billiards, bowling, basketball, etc. in that you're trying to send a projectile toward a desired target, be it the bull's eye/"X", corner pocket, 7/10 split, or basketball hoop. It involves the same discipline & control that those sports do.
Wow, I've never thought of that, but it's totally accurate. Good analogy.
Geronimo 45:
To play devil's advocate the difference in hobbies (collecting stamps vs collecting AR's) is the weapons enable you to kill someone where a stamp can't. I could get into bats/spears/choice of weapon vs assult rifles. Even brake it down to bolt action rifles vs semi auto or auto rifles. The assult rifle will kill more people faster. I don't know if saying I like collecting them is a route I would take.
I'm not trying to shoot people down or anything. I want to have a clear, focused response when I'm asked the question "Why do you need an assult rifle?" I don't want to pick on you specifically Geronimo, I like the tool argument. Right now I'm feeling like the most viable arguments are these:
1. Self-defense. Look at Hurricane Katrina
2. It's a useful tool. I can shoot varmits, and can hunt larger game
especially when I get into larger calibers.
3. It's a legit target rifle (aka I like shooting it). I could poke a hole in that
argument saying we don't always get to do what we like.
What do other people think? Am I way off base here? The perception out there is only criminals and militia members use assult rifles. I want to be able to change the perceptions of those people who are mildly anti or on the fence on this.
To play devil's advocate the difference in hobbies (collecting stamps vs collecting AR's) is the weapons enable you to kill someone where a stamp can't. I could get into bats/spears/choice of weapon vs assult rifles. Even brake it down to bolt action rifles vs semi auto or auto rifles. The assult rifle will kill more people faster. I don't know if saying I like collecting them is a route I would take.
I'm not trying to shoot people down or anything. I want to have a clear, focused response when I'm asked the question "Why do you need an assult rifle?" I don't want to pick on you specifically Geronimo, I like the tool argument. Right now I'm feeling like the most viable arguments are these:
1. Self-defense. Look at Hurricane Katrina
2. It's a useful tool. I can shoot varmits, and can hunt larger game
especially when I get into larger calibers.
3. It's a legit target rifle (aka I like shooting it). I could poke a hole in that
argument saying we don't always get to do what we like.
What do other people think? Am I way off base here? The perception out there is only criminals and militia members use assult rifles. I want to be able to change the perceptions of those people who are mildly anti or on the fence on this.
wildburp
member
Assualting BGs
Enough said.
Enough said.
RockyMtnTactical
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Because the second amendment is about owning military style firearms, not neccessarily hunting or target shooting...
Anyone that retorts "cause I can", "to hunt with", "to target shoot with", is themselves missing the point of 2A or just trying to be glib.
Dont give in to the temptation to sound smarter and snappier....and for sure don't spread misinformation. 2A is about the defense of freedom and the ability of Americans to individually and collectively resist oppression. THATS IT !!!!
Hunting, collecting, target shooting, and having cool toys are only, ONLY, secondary to the enumerated Right of defending yourself and your way of life with "arms".
The Founding Fathers had just killed and been killed for several years. They recognized two facts: 1. America could be invaded at any time and needed a way to defend the new country (probably from the British as happened in 1812) 2. That Gov. even in their best form, are but a necsessary evil. And will if not watched and checked....run amuck ! In order to combat these two things our RIGHT to self preservation was enumerated in the 2nd Ammendment to the Constitution. It was also so clear that it need not be written that a man needed a rifle to provide for and protect his family......deprivation of such means would deprive one perhaps of Life. Liberty, or the Pursuit of Happiness, But those points are not in the 2nd Ammendment.
Like it or not that is why you have a 2nd Ammendment to the Constitution.....it aint about stamps, or hobbies, or corvette's, or looking cool, or hunting (maybe hunting as a way to eat and therefore survive). Arguing anything less hurts our cause more than it helps !
Dont give in to the temptation to sound smarter and snappier....and for sure don't spread misinformation. 2A is about the defense of freedom and the ability of Americans to individually and collectively resist oppression. THATS IT !!!!
Hunting, collecting, target shooting, and having cool toys are only, ONLY, secondary to the enumerated Right of defending yourself and your way of life with "arms".
The Founding Fathers had just killed and been killed for several years. They recognized two facts: 1. America could be invaded at any time and needed a way to defend the new country (probably from the British as happened in 1812) 2. That Gov. even in their best form, are but a necsessary evil. And will if not watched and checked....run amuck ! In order to combat these two things our RIGHT to self preservation was enumerated in the 2nd Ammendment to the Constitution. It was also so clear that it need not be written that a man needed a rifle to provide for and protect his family......deprivation of such means would deprive one perhaps of Life. Liberty, or the Pursuit of Happiness, But those points are not in the 2nd Ammendment.
Like it or not that is why you have a 2nd Ammendment to the Constitution.....it aint about stamps, or hobbies, or corvette's, or looking cool, or hunting (maybe hunting as a way to eat and therefore survive). Arguing anything less hurts our cause more than it helps !
10-Ring
Member
Why do I need an assault rifle? Maybe it's alot like why do people play golf, collect stamps, fish, play music or hang out on the internet....I collect firearms because I like them & it's my hobby....plus, because I can
Stevie-Ray
Member
Why I need an "Assault" weapon
For when the SHTF.
Actually the AR for close-up work. Long range is covered with the FAL.
For when the SHTF.
Actually the AR for close-up work. Long range is covered with the FAL.
evan price
Member
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
Defines the basic needs of humans into 5 subgroups. The needs at the foundation of the pyramid are required before moving up to the next hierarchy. Deficiencies here can cause problems with stability and adjustment into society.
The most basic needs at the bottom of the pyramid are physical: Food, water, sex, a warm place to sleep, etc. As we fulfill the needs of the lower Tiers we move on to seek fulfillment of the "higher" needs. As we mature and satisfy the basic needs to sustain life we evolve into more complex needs such as acceptance, self esteem, personal development, etc. Eventually we move on to having the luxury to explore such modern needs such as morality, honor, creativity, etc.
So, do we "need" assault weapons? No. But possessing them can help fulfill Tier Four needs, usually personified as esteem needs, for example confidence (learning to be a good & accurate shooter), respect (being seen as a good shooter, being seen as "powerful"), self esteem (owning a "cool" looking gun, being "powerful", being a good shot).
Generally owning a good weapon to defend yourself can be shown to directly defend your Tier Two needs (Security of body, resources, property, health, family). You are empowered to defend yourself against those who would deprive you of those needs with your posession of an EBR.
Obviously at some point in time the argument can be made that owning an EBR can help fulfill the Tier One needs as well (pure physical such as food, water, shelter, etc) because by using your EBR to defend your life, food supply, water source, etc, you are preserving your own life.
So, short answer. No, nobody "needs" an EBR. However we are given the recognized God-given right to own them should we choose to do so and by our choice to own them, we fulfill other needs that we have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
Defines the basic needs of humans into 5 subgroups. The needs at the foundation of the pyramid are required before moving up to the next hierarchy. Deficiencies here can cause problems with stability and adjustment into society.
The most basic needs at the bottom of the pyramid are physical: Food, water, sex, a warm place to sleep, etc. As we fulfill the needs of the lower Tiers we move on to seek fulfillment of the "higher" needs. As we mature and satisfy the basic needs to sustain life we evolve into more complex needs such as acceptance, self esteem, personal development, etc. Eventually we move on to having the luxury to explore such modern needs such as morality, honor, creativity, etc.
So, do we "need" assault weapons? No. But possessing them can help fulfill Tier Four needs, usually personified as esteem needs, for example confidence (learning to be a good & accurate shooter), respect (being seen as a good shooter, being seen as "powerful"), self esteem (owning a "cool" looking gun, being "powerful", being a good shot).
Generally owning a good weapon to defend yourself can be shown to directly defend your Tier Two needs (Security of body, resources, property, health, family). You are empowered to defend yourself against those who would deprive you of those needs with your posession of an EBR.
Obviously at some point in time the argument can be made that owning an EBR can help fulfill the Tier One needs as well (pure physical such as food, water, shelter, etc) because by using your EBR to defend your life, food supply, water source, etc, you are preserving your own life.
So, short answer. No, nobody "needs" an EBR. However we are given the recognized God-given right to own them should we choose to do so and by our choice to own them, we fulfill other needs that we have.
Guy B. Meredith
Member
As stated in several ways, the real question in return should be "why should I NOT have an assault rifle?" It really makes no difference whether the others agree with your reasons for having one. They are not the arbiters of moral high ground, just self important bigots.
Why do you need an assualt rifle?
*JOKES*
1)I am not a very good shot and the extra bullets help.
2)one word "zombies"
3)Because I could not afford a PS3
I got my first "AR" many moons ago in 6th grade.
Most people do not understand the 2A I did not in 6th grade.
SO
really I don't tell people I have guns...
Second I hunt ugly hogs with them.
*JOKES*
1)I am not a very good shot and the extra bullets help.
2)one word "zombies"
3)Because I could not afford a PS3
I got my first "AR" many moons ago in 6th grade.
Most people do not understand the 2A I did not in 6th grade.
SO
really I don't tell people I have guns...
Second I hunt ugly hogs with them.
SniperStraz
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If they have 'em we need to have 'em too.
Its just that simple IMO if these weapons are available to drug dealers and thugs they need to be available to us law abiding citizens too. The same goes for hand guns. If you knew that no one else in the US had a gun you wouldn't feel that you needed one. If drug dealers and gangs used only knives then you would buy a good knife and get training in knife fighting, and you would feel safe. Its that simple. (It'd still be nice to have a 1911 handy just in case
)
Its just that simple IMO if these weapons are available to drug dealers and thugs they need to be available to us law abiding citizens too. The same goes for hand guns. If you knew that no one else in the US had a gun you wouldn't feel that you needed one. If drug dealers and gangs used only knives then you would buy a good knife and get training in knife fighting, and you would feel safe. Its that simple. (It'd still be nice to have a 1911 handy just in case
)Don't Tread On Me
Member
In case no one's mentioned it already....
It's not a bill of needs, it's a bill of rights.
It's not a bill of needs, it's a bill of rights.
Guy:
Actually it's important to try and educate these moral high ground bigots.
Reason:
These bigots will be the ones in the future who just might be your elected representation or judges who just might have a say what firearms are legal and which are not for better or worse. Also, if these anti's don't happen to find themselves in a position of passing legislation or judging whether or not it's legal, what happens when politicians look to drum up support for AWB's? "Yeah assult weapons are bad. Nobody should have them." No matter how the constitution is written it will always be debated. Why do you think lawyers have job security? Interpretatation, like it or not.
Actually it's important to try and educate these moral high ground bigots.
Reason:
These bigots will be the ones in the future who just might be your elected representation or judges who just might have a say what firearms are legal and which are not for better or worse. Also, if these anti's don't happen to find themselves in a position of passing legislation or judging whether or not it's legal, what happens when politicians look to drum up support for AWB's? "Yeah assult weapons are bad. Nobody should have them." No matter how the constitution is written it will always be debated. Why do you think lawyers have job security? Interpretatation, like it or not.
earplug
Member
I need X rifle in case I'm attacked byX
Its not my governments job to decide the correct weapon to protect me from a possible attack.
I assume that resomaibilty.
Now if only the goverment schools had taught me to spell.
Its not my governments job to decide the correct weapon to protect me from a possible attack.
I assume that resomaibilty.
Now if only the goverment schools had taught me to spell.
Sean Dempsey
Member
you don't need. you want.
no one can argue with want.
no one can argue with want.
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