Why does .40 S&W suck?

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I spent the other afternoon shooting my longslide witness loaded with Double Taps Bullet : 200gr XTP/JHP Ballistics : 1250fps/ 694ft./ lbs.out of a 4.6 BRL
out of my 6.5 inch BRL it wouold be at least 150 faster. I was hitting my targets at 300 yards. Do that with you 45acp or the 40 weak sauce Had plenty of folks there so don't say it can't be done since you can't
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How many will be shooting at a BG in self-defense at 300yrds with a handgun? We all practice at a more then reasonable distance of 25yrds which itself is likely further then you would ever be shooting in self defense with a handgun, and at 25yrds my 229 in .40 performs as well and even better then some 9mm and .45s that I shoot, unless your superman the round is not likely to bounce of your chest nor will you out run it, So for the purpose it was designed (self defense) it performs well. How it performs at 300yrds has no practicality in self-defense calibers for handguns.

And BTW, law-enforcement does not commonly carry a .40S&W because they consider it a “poor man stopper”, both the .40 and .45 have been widely accepted in law-enforcement as an “effect man stopper” as far as handgun caliburs go, and the 357Sig is catching up fast.
 
We all practice at a more then reasonable distance of 25yrds which itself is likely further then you would ever be shooting in self defense with a handgun
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Amen. If you shoot someone at 25 yards, you're going to prison for a long time. There just doesn't seem to be any practicality in training to shoot a pistol at something 900 ft away.
 
I fail to understand how many of you feel the recoil of the 40 is excessive and being related to someone kicking the muzzle and being equal to the 357mag?!?! What platform is this? Out of my G-23, it is not much more than the 9mm. I just don't get how the 45 is being said to have less recoil than the 40. Get real. And just for good measure, the 10mm rules! 16 rounds of 135, 155, or 165gr is a self defense package that is unmatched.
 
I was an "early adopter", and bought two different model Glocks (23 and 27) in .40 S&W in 1994.

I eventually decided that the caliber and its guns were essentially superfluous, and did nothing that I couldn't already do with either the 9mm or .45ACP.

I sold the two guns accordingly, and haven't owned any since.

Problems with the concept have included the fact that many .40 S&W guns are built on frames originally designed to accomodate the 9mm cartiridge (insufficiently strong for the .40S&W cartridge), and the fact that the cartridge is loaded to maximal pressures, such that occasional "KaBooms" occur.
I have no trouble with those who favor the cartridge; at last check, it was the favorite LEO cartridge, but I have no need or use for it, personally.
Best.
 
I don't think the .40 sucks at all! The second best autoloader I own is a Glock23 and it fits and shoots well in my hands. My gun likes 165 gr. ammo better than the heavy stuff, but 165 is more than enough.:D
 
The only reason the 10mm never caught on was because most semi shooters can't cope with recoil greater than a .45 ACP.

I have a .40 now and don't see anything per se wrong with it. But if the ammo was cheaper I'd go with a 10 in a heartbeat.

If you shoot someone at 25 yards, you're going to prison for a long time.
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Where are you getting this dren? Yardage ain't the test. And a man shooting a firearm at you poses an imminent threat of deadly harm or serious bodily injury from five yards or fifty.

Out of my G-23, it is not much more than the 9mm. I
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I've had the same impression.
 
No. It has nothing to do with recoil unless you're a 5'2" weenie that spends most of their time behind a monitor and isn't willing to practice with their duty peice. I've seen a 16 year old girl do just fine with a 10mm loaded with Double Taps. The recoil of my Glock 20 so loaded is comprible to a .45 ACP--maybe a little sharper, so call it a +P .45, but certainly nothing atrocious and absolutely managible if you practice enough to gain profeciency with any serious defensive caliber, including the .40.

Likewise, the lack of popularity has nothing to do with versitility. Dozens of handgun and rifle cartridges can claim to be very versitile. The .30-06 and the .357 Magnum have already been mentioned. The .308 Win fits in this catagory, as do most of the rounds based on its case, and to an extent, so does the .44 Rem Mag. The simple fact is that versitility is a good thing and almost never adversly affects a cartridge's popularity. The real reason the 10mm isn't a maintstream cartridge is because it lacks a mainstream name. It was popular when backed by big names like Colt and Smith and Wesson and the FBI, but when the FBI showed the tendency of all gov agencies to cater to the lowest common denominator and dropped the cartridge in favor of something a little more docile, this support ended. Simply put, the 10mm is not maintstream because it lacks advertising and endorsment. It doesn't have a major manufactor printed on its case head. It doesn't have the nostalgia of the .45 or 9mm nor the advertising bucks to compete against a name like Smith and Wesson.
The 10mm Auto is not maintstream and probably never will be. But it does deserve better. IMO it deserves at least the popularity of its nearest ballistic rival, the .357 Magnum. The 10mm Auto is, however, far from dead. It still has a loyal, and by some accounts, steadily growing fan base. Way back in the early 90s when the .40 came out and the FBI turned its back on the 10mm, people said the cartridge was dead and would fade into obscurity. Fifteen years later, it retains at least the popularity in the civilian sector it had then. The 10mm Auto will be with us for a while, because it survives on performance alone. That is the one thing it does have plenty of, and there are still people out there who can appreciate it. This is why it makes no sense to produce and distribute 10mm Lite ammunition. If people wanted .40 Short and Weak ballistics, they'd go with a .40 Short and Weak. The only people who buy 10mm Auto is people looking for 10mm Auto performance. So it is absurd for Federal to claim it is a dead cartridge because they can't sell ammo for it because they are too stupid to offer ammo for it that provides a ballistic advantage over the .40 S&W. Mike McNett started a little company called Double Tap originally to sell 10mm Auto ammunition loaded to its potential. It is good stuff, and he can hardly make it fast enough to supply the demand for it. As an added benefit, he made enough profit simply by selling quality high performance ammo for the 10mm, that he could afford to expand his line up to include other popular cartridges, and he has done so with great success. The 10mm isn't maintstream, but it isn't dead, and there is still a demand for it for those with the intelligence and foresight to offer real 10mm Auto ammunition.
 
The only 40 I've shot was my ex-roommate's SigPro and I didn't really like the pistol in general which probably contributed my my lack of warm feelings for 40S&W.

In general, I'd say I shoot 45ACP because I like 45ACP, rather than because of any particular dislike of any other round.

:)
B.
 
A couple of my Grandfather's favorite sayings come to mind. The first is that 'Life is tradeoffs'. For those of you that don't care for recoil, there are ways to tame (or manage) it, be it a lighter load or a recoil management system in your semi-auto. Another factor is that the .40 S&W is in that area someone tried to 'split the difference' between the 9 m/m and the .45 ACP. Another 'split the difference' is the .357 Sig (between the 9 m/m and the .40 S&W). You can hit your target (preferred regardless of caliber) with something large and slow (.45 ACP), or relatively small and quick (9 m/m or .40 S&W). It's all where you hit your target(the accuracy is everything axiom). Each chambering has its followers, you make your choice and you pay your money.

The other saying my Grandfather liked is 'You can lead a horse to water, but if you can get him to float on his back, you have really got something'. I'm still working on figuring THAT one out.
 
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It has nothing to do with recoil
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Why did the FBI download the 10mm, then? Isn't the .40 just a version of the downloaded 10mm? I think this is all about the recoil sensitivity of most semiauto shooters.

Mind you, I'm not saying the 10mm has too much recoil. I'm saying the 10mm has more recoil than most semi shooters can tolerate because most semi shooters don't have the .454's and .44 Mags set as the high water mark.
 
10mm has more recoil than most semi shooters can tolerate because most semi shooters don't have the .454's and .44 Mags set as the high water mark.
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Never shot a .44 Magnum or a .454, but I shot a Glock in 10mm this past weekend - I wanted to try something new and that was the only gun they had in a caliber I haven't fired.

I couldn't help but think of all the 10mm fanatics here. I hate to say it, but I really was not that impressed. It kind of got me wondering...

Where is all this terrible recoil everyone keeps talking about when referring to the 10mm? Maybe it's because I own a .357Sig / 40S&W, but I didn't see anything to be scared of from the 10mm.

I didn't really notice anything spectacular either, but there's not much to notice at an indoor pistol range.
 
I see the 10mm Auto as the semi-automatic kindred spirit of the .41 Magnum.

They both have become a niche or boutique cartridge.
Those who understand them get it.
And those who can't comprehend the why, will never get it.

Which is okay with me. Not everything works for everyone.
Choose what works best for YOU.



If you need to built something out of wood go to the hardware store.
You'll fine several sizes of nails that will do the job properly.
And there will also be more than one hammer that will do an entirely satisfactory job of driving those nails.
But the quality of the assembly will be a direct result of the ability of the person setting the nails and wielding the hammer.


There's more that one way to skin a cat.
And if all you care about is the cat's skin, the method of removal becomes less important.
 
I was scared to death of .40's.......

until I bought a CZ-40P. What a pussycat. My Makarov has a snappier recoil. Sold the CZ, bought a full size H&K USP in .40 S&W. Absolutely the most accurate and pleasant autoloader I'VE ever shot.
 
Why did the FBI download the 10mm, then? Isn't the .40 just a version of the downloaded 10mm? I think this is all about the recoil sensitivity of most semiauto shooters.
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Because the FBI is a government agency. Like the military it has to bow out to the needs of the lowest common denominator. If you are a 5' 90 pound female or a 65 year old with arthritis, or if you spend most of your time behind a desk or are otherwise unable or unwilling to practice with your issued sidearm, the 10mm Auto may be a little much for you. But anyone who can handle a .45 can handle a 10mm Auto. And again, I've seen a 5'4" female do just fine her first time out with my Glock 20 loaded with Double Taps. Maybe not well enough to qualify for the FBI, but 15 rounds through anything is hardly enough to give you a level of profeciency needed to trust your life to it. And as usual, with government agencies, there is usually some politics in the background influencing events. This was true when the M16 replaced the M14, when the M9 replaced the 1911, and was also true when the FBI abandoned the 10mm. A new director took office halfway through the testing and adoption phase and as part of his effort to put a new face on the FBI, the 10mm was one of the projects that got cancelled. The bottom line is that government use of something doesn't necessarily indicate that it is the best--merely that it probably works adequately in most cases for most people. Remember, the government is provided by the lowest bidder. In most cases, including this one, it isn't most, or even many. Most, or many, field agents could do just fine with the .45 or the 10mm Auto. For them, these pistols could offer some advantages. This is the primary reason I really don't like the .40. Because it exists solely due to the tendency of the government to ignore the capabilities or advantages of a system for the defenciencies of a minority, a lowest common denominator, as I call it. Same with the 5.56 over the 7.62mm, and the Beretta over the 1911. It hate that, but it is life. In the meantime, for the rest of us who enjoy firearms and don't mind practicing, we don't have to care what the government uses. All we need to be concerned about is our own capabilities and limitations. The .45 and the 10mm work just fine for me.

Cousin Mike--like I said before, if you're looking for serious recoil, the 10mm won't provide it for you, esp in a Glock. The 10mm Auto is more comparible to the .357 Magnum than the .44 or the .454, and the Glock is very well designed to controll muzzle flip and recoil forces. The pleasure of the Glock 20 comes from knowing you're getting pretty close to something for nothing--.357 Magnum ballistics without recoil typically associated with it.
 
allen268 said:
300yrds has no practicality in self-defense calibers for handguns.
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I was just making the point that full power 10mm is capable, flat shooting accurate round.
Also works very well on deer, I have never had to shoot a deer more than once with a 10mm and I have taken them out to 145 yards


Cousin Mike said:
Amen. If you shoot someone at 25 yards, you're going to prison for a long time. There just doesn't seem to be any practicality in training to shoot a pistol at something 900 ft away.
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Its called practice Elmer Keith used to do this all the time, I guess it was a waste of time for him also. I am more than happy to be in his company

Cosmoline said:
Where are you getting this dren? Yardage ain't the test. And a man shooting a firearm at you poses an imminent threat of deadly harm or serious bodily injury from five yards or fifty.
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DITTO
 
I was just making the point that full power 10mm is capable, flat shooting accurate round. Also works very well on deer, I have never had to shoot a deer more than once with a 10mm and I have taken them out to 145 yards
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That’s all fine and dandy, I don’t carry a .40 to hunt deer and my (as you put it) “40 weak sauce” at 25yrds is accurate enough to effectively accomplish what It was designed to do and what I use it for, self defense. Notice how I said this without trashing 9mm, .45, or your 10mm?

We all have our personnel preference in what we choose to carry and why, for me its because of all the guns I’ve owned and shot my Sig 229 in .40 is the one I feel performs the best for me (if not I would carry something else), its not just the gun or the caliber, but its the combination of both along with the person that determines the best SD choice. Because the .40 may not be your personnel choice does not mean the .40 sucks, just like the 9mm (or 10) doesn’t suck because it’s not my choice. I find that with my 229ST accuracy is superb, muzzle flip a non-issue, follow-up shots not a problem for me, 12+1 round capacity (25 w/spare mag), and it was designed to handle .40S&W
So in my case please inform me why the .40S&W sucks? If one caliber fit all we wouldn’t even be talking about this.
 
If you shoot someone at 25 yards, you're going to prison for a long time.
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Now where did I put that BS flag emoticon?
That statement is just plain stoopid.
Time to put your money where your mouth is.
Give us a legal cite in which anyone was found guilty solely because of the distance involved.


If you do your research you'll find that states usually have a clearly defined definition of self defense written into their published revised statues.
I challenge you to find a single state where they prescribe a distance limit for self defense.

Of course this only applies to states in The United States of America.


There just doesn't seem to be any practicality in training to shoot a pistol at something 900 ft away.
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Well at least this sounds more like a personal opinion and not presented as a fact.
And it's an opinion many of us will disagree with.

What about metallic silhouette shooting?
What about hunting?
What about long range target shooting?
What about just for the fun of being able to do it?

Do you not consider any of that to be a "practical use"?
That sound's like something a politican would spew.
What possible practical use could anyone have for a gun that shoots a half-inch bullet that can hit a target half a mile away?:barf:

Hell's Bells™ if there is absolutely no reason to ever shoot anything more than thirty feet away then why even put sights on handguns?


This past Sturday afternoon I stood out in the blazing sun and shot six times at various reactionary targets of 6" diameter or less at approximately seventy-five feet. In front of witnesses, I hit all six targets. And I did it with a two-inch barreled Colt Agent that I had never fired before!
:neener:

On yeah and...
Hell yes, it was FUN! :evil:

I also made most of my shots on soda cans at one hundred to one hundred fifty feet with my 2" Colt Lawman.

Practical? Well that's a matter of opinion. But, personally, I feel that if I can hit a soda can at one hundred feet then a "cantaloupe" sized target at twenty feet is gonna be simple.

But then perhaps my personal standards and goals are higher than yours.

To each his own.
 
I challenge you to find a single state where they prescribe a distance limit for self defense.
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I'm not doing your homework for you - you should have learned this stuff when you got your CCW. Or maybe you're one of those who lies about carrying, or doesn't have any common sense. Maybe you're the stoopid one :D The bottom line is, you're only allowed to shoot someone to save yourself from a deadly threat -

SO, since it is universally accepted that at 25 yards, a man is NOT an imminent threat (unless he is already shooting at you)- why don't YOU find ME a situation where someone actually had to use a CCW sidearm to defend himself at 300 yards from an attacker? I promise, I'll send you a cookie in the mail for your efforts. Of course, all that time could be dedicated to actually shooting, or maybe getting a job, or something other than sitting around on forums trying to look like an expert in the presence of strangers. But that's just the way I think.



Of course this only applies to states in The United States of America
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This part is cute... :D I'm glad you put so much time and thought into your posts. You have a mind like a steel trap, sir.

What about metallic silhouette shooting?
What about hunting?
What about long range target shooting?
What about just for the fun of being able to do it?

Do you not consider any of that to be a "practical use"?
That sound's like something a politican would spew.
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LOL... Who is this guy?

Where did I say anywhere that I had a problem with these activities?
I believe my quote was

"I don't see the practicality in training to shoot a pistol at something 900 ft. away"

Obviously, you have no ability to reason, so let me explain that one for you. That's called MY OPINION. And, at those distances, I think most people with common sense would be reaching for a rifle. But, the key word in that sentence is "sense," something you've shown me that you don't have a lot of.

To me, you sound like a silly old man full of piss & vinegar, trying to rile up the crowd to your side of an opinion by comparing me to a politician or a liberal. Sweet tactics, old timer! Keep digging - there's nothing but crap in your argument as of yet.

The rest of your post doesn't even make enough sense to address...

Oh, wait...

This past Sturday afternoon I stood out in the blazing sun and shot six times at various reactionary targets of 6" diameter or less at approximately seventy-five feet. In front of witnesses, I hit all six targets. And I did it with a two-inch barreled Colt Agent that I had never fired before!
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Now, where did I put MY bullsh*t emoticon? :D

perhaps my personal standards and goals are higher than yours.
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You've earned yourself an invitation to Columbus, Ohio to find that out :evil:

But then again, I just train. I don't come on the internet to try to impress people with my training regiment, my aim, my stories or a buncha exaggerated BS stories about shooting a 6" target at 75 feet either. I can shoot very well - and that's all I feel the need to share. Braggarts are almost always full of sh*t, and I suspect you are no different.

I also made most of my shots on soda cans at one hundred to one hundred fifty feet with my 2" Colt Lawman.
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This one is priceless... I thought Dr. Seuss rhymed all his stories?
By the way, the next time you intend to brag on something, pick something I couldn't do when I was 12 years old.

Anyone who brings up "having witnesses" in an online forum automatically trips my BS detector. That's 'child-on-a-playground' talk. Then again, I'm talking to a man who calls himself BluesBear... I guess I shouldn't have expected any different.

I also like how you reached back about 3 posts to pick a fight with ME, out of nowhere. I wonder what your reasoning was for doing that... ?

I notice you don't seem to attack anyone else who shares my point of view, and there ARE other people who think 300 yards is a bit far for pistol training, and they have also posted their opinions. Why aren't you flaming them as well? And you also still haven't explained where "fun" adds up to "practical." Notice, they have 2 different definitions in our english dictionary.

Its called practice Elmer Keith used to do this all the time, I guess it was a waste of time for him also. I am more than happy to be in his company
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Why not just be happy to be yourself?
Obviously this is not the way I train
If thats the way you train buddy, more power to ya'.
Here's hoping that you never have to use your training.
 
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